ACC Discussion 2021-22

CuseJacket

Administrator
Staff member
Messages
19,625
This is a bad post my dude.
Disagree. The foul was atrocious. In the real world, he should be suspended.

But prior precedent has been set re: penalty, and there's some irony there. I'm not talking about karma = other guys should be injured, if that's how my post was interpreted.
 

orientalnc

Helluva Engineer
Retired Staff
Messages
10,040
Location
Oriental, NC
Disagree. The foul was atrocious. In the real world, he should be suspended.

But prior precedent has been set re: penalty, and there's some irony there. I'm not talking about karma = other guys should be injured, if that's how my post was interpreted.
The "4 hours" part puzzled me initially, then I realized it was probably tic.
 

kg01

Get-Bak! Coach
Featured Member
Messages
15,345
Location
Atlanta
Disagree. The foul was atrocious. In the real world, he should be suspended.

But prior precedent has been set re: penalty, and there's some irony there. I'm not talking about karma = other guys should be injured, if that's how my post was interpreted.

I get what you're saying (I think) and I'm all for crappin' on K. I just wish it were a less dangerous foul to take that stance on. Like, this foul was a 100 on a scale of 1 to 10. Had it been like an 8 ... ah, I would've played around with making a point to Duke.

And, to @Connell62 point, I have no idea why or how this wasn't an all out brawl. Sorry that guy deserved it. I'm ok with truckin' a guy. Even that's across a line. But doing it to a guy in the air is beyond, beyond.

For anyone that didn't see it ..

 

lv20gt

Helluva Engineer
Messages
5,585
Disagree. The foul was atrocious. In the real world, he should be suspended.

But prior precedent has been set re: penalty, and there's some irony there. I'm not talking about karma = other guys should be injured, if that's how my post was interpreted.

Allen tripping players isn't precedent for this case though. That's why it is a bad post.

The two actions aren't comparable. Allen's actions only warranted a suspension because it was a reoccurring thing. Had it been a one off thing it would have probably not even gotten an ejection and nobody would care.

This act could have ended Moore's career and is on a completely different level than Allen's actions or most fouls.

Allen might have deserved more than one game. This action deserves a rest of the season suspension to me.
 

Silk3

Ramblin' Wreck
Messages
936
I get what you're saying (I think) and I'm all for crappin' on K. I just wish it were a less dangerous foul to take that stance on. Like, this foul was a 100 on a scale of 1 to 10. Had it been like an 8 ... ah, I would've played around with making a point to Duke.

And, to @Connell62 point, I have no idea why or how this wasn't an all out brawl. Sorry that guy deserved it. I'm ok with truckin' a guy. Even that's across a line. But doing it to a guy in the air is beyond, beyond.

For anyone that didn't see it ..


they should of beat his a**
 

CuseJacket

Administrator
Staff member
Messages
19,625
I get what you're saying (I think) and I'm all for crappin' on K. I just wish it were a less dangerous foul to take that stance on. Like, this foul was a 100 on a scale of 1 to 10. Had it been like an 8 ... ah, I would've played around with making a point to Duke.

And, to @Connell62 point, I have no idea why or how this wasn't an all out brawl. Sorry that guy deserved it. I'm ok with truckin' a guy. Even that's across a line. But doing it to a guy in the air is beyond, beyond.

For anyone that didn't see it ..


Allen tripping players isn't precedent for this case though. That's why it is a bad post.

The two actions aren't comparable. Allen's actions only warranted a suspension because it was a reoccurring thing. Had it been a one off thing it would have probably not even gotten an ejection and nobody would care.

This act could have ended Moore's career and is on a completely different level than Allen's actions or most fouls.

Allen might have deserved more than one game. This action deserves a rest of the season suspension to me.
I get it and I'm not going to die on the hill I climbed here. I'm fine accepting an unpopular take. I agree that the potential consequence of this single event alone was a magnitude higher than any one of Allen's transgressions. I'm sympathetic to your points but happy to casually debate the penalty, though I'm not passionate about the penalty he's served either way. I do disagree in some ways.

Let me just start here. I don't know what was going through the Clemson dude's head. It's so egregious that I wonder if he blacked out, in all seriousness. Or misjudged what Moore was about to do. He's been in that situation 1000x in his career - had to be if he played AAU - and unless everyone's missed his prior transgressions, he's never done this before. The only single action worse would have been if he left his feet and Superman'd Moore to the ground while in the air.

Now, does the Clemson player have a history of this? That's important to me here. I don't think so, which is why I wonder 'wtf'. He still needs to be held accountable.

In the case of Duke's Allen, he put players in a position of harm multiple times. I'm not willing to say tripping a dude is harmless. You can cause permanent damage when players are going full throttle. There was a pattern of misbehavior that amounted to an indefinite, single game suspension. And for what it's worth, he's still not learned from it and it's continued in the NBA.

I don't know. It's kind of like, yea, one guy likes to get drunk and drive, but at least he's only driving 30 mph and bumps into electrical poles while weaving through crowds, knocking a few folks over without killing them. This other guy got drunk one time and hit someone dead on, 70 mph, but that victim got up and walked away too. I don't have tolerance for either, to be clear.
 

kg01

Get-Bak! Coach
Featured Member
Messages
15,345
Location
Atlanta
In an act that can be described as nothing but heroic, I'm going to come to cuse's defense. I saw the Allen guy literally 2-had shove a guy into the path of a defender that was going all-out to block a shot. That it didn't end in a scenario similar to the Clemson foul was only happenstance.

In that instance, it was "just" a little push. Really subtle. But it put two players in a collision course that was actually pretty dangerous as well.

I say that all to say, yes comparing the innocuous trips and whatnot seem out of place. But them allowing Allen to continuously go unpunished for these "little" acts is going to get someone hurt. Shiiiii, he just broke a dude's wrist like 3 weeks ago. And, as usual, he got off with a slap on the wrist (no pun intended, yeah I know I'm surprised too).

Cuse has a point, no matter how ham-fistedly he handled it. Seriously leave the wittiness to the professionals, my guy. You gonna mess around and get yourself banned or something.
 

orientalnc

Helluva Engineer
Retired Staff
Messages
10,040
Location
Oriental, NC
I have watched the clip a bunch of times and this is my opinion:

First, Moore is on a breakaway and the Clemson kid (Collins) made no attempt to block the shot. It would have been a flagrant no matter the severity of the contact. Second, irrespective of the foul, the contact could have been unintentional. Moore moved his body to the right slightly to align himself for the dunk. Collins was flying down the court and had no opportunity to alter his course. This is the basis for his post-game apology. Third, I think flagrant2 fouls like these breakaway fouls deserve more than ejection and intent matters. Certainly, a multi-game suspension is within the range of the penalties I think would be appropriate. Fourth, this is not similar to the Allen tripping fouls. Allen was overtly trying to trip an opponent, and the intent makes that a very different problem. K's one game (indefinite) suspension was a sham.
 

GTpdm

Helluva Engineer
Messages
1,982
Location
Atlanta GA
In an act that can be described as nothing but heroic, I'm going to come to cuse's defense. I saw the Allen guy literally 2-had shove a guy into the path of a defender that was going all-out to block a shot. That it didn't end in a scenario similar to the Clemson foul was only happenstance.

In that instance, it was "just" a little push. Really subtle. But it put two players in a collision course that was actually pretty dangerous as well.

I say that all to say, yes comparing the innocuous trips and whatnot seem out of place. But them allowing Allen to continuously go unpunished for these "little" acts is going to get someone hurt. Shiiiii, he just broke a dude's wrist like 3 weeks ago. And, as usual, he got off with a slap on the wrist (no pun intended, yeah I know I'm surprised too).

Cuse has a point, no matter how ham-fistedly he handled it. Seriously leave the wittiness to the professionals, my guy. You gonna mess around and get yourself banned or something.
Well dang. Here I was getting ready to defend Cuse, and you have to go and ruin it—any friend of my frenemy is my frenemy!

@CuseJacket, as a mod, please ban @CuseJacket.
 

dtm1997

Helluva Engineer
Featured Member
Messages
15,722
Listen. I'm not gonna read all of these long posts, but **** dook and @kg01 makes base ice cream decisions.

Also, I'll be at the ACC Tournament.
 

lv20gt

Helluva Engineer
Messages
5,585
If the comparison had anything to do with the actions and the consequences we'd be talking about Omar Payne or Kewan Platt.

In the case of Duke's Allen, he put players in a position of harm multiple times. I'm not willing to say tripping a dude is harmless. You can cause permanent damage when players are going full throttle.

They weren't going full throttle. One against FSU was a guy who was stationary on an inbound and got tripped off his initial cut. Against UL it was a guy who had gotten a rebound and was just starting to turn up the court having barely taken one dribble. Against Elon the guy was driving to the basket, had gotten cut off and tried to spin move. None of those were anywhere in the same vicinity as dangerous as the play Collins made. Yes they were bush league. No they didn't rise to the level of even warranting an ejection, and the one game suspension was probably in line with what it should have been. It was a meme because it was initially called an indefinite suspension and then changed but a single game suspension for repeated acts like that is pretty much in line with what is normally done (see the NBA's repeated technical foul rules).

Hell the worst Allen has done to my knowledge (the one against Caruso a couple weeks back) is a good comparison only to show just how far beyond even normal dirty plays this play was. At least then Allen still got in front, still made an effort to contest the shot, the contact that was made was still to the wrist holding the ball, and still slowed down. This play was several orders of magnitude worse than that one and that one was a flagrant 2 foul worthy of an ejection.

The comparison to Allen's tripping only serves to downplay just how bad this was, whether that was the intent or not.


Second, irrespective of the foul, the contact could have been unintentional. Moore moved his body to the right slightly to align himself for the dunk. Collins was flying down the court and had no opportunity to alter his course. This is the basis for his post-game apology.

There is no way that contact was unintentional. Moore moved his body to align himself with the dunk? What was Collins expecting the basketball player to do with the basketball? Not go to the basket with the ball? Second, Collins did a lot more to go towards Moore than vise versa.

His apology is completely bunk. He was going for a block from behind? That's why he had a gather step, elevated to contest and took a swipe at the ball?

Oh wait, he did none of that. He went full bore, didn't break stride, didn't try to time his steps, didn't jump, didn't contest, made no play on the ball in any way, shape or form, put a forearm into the hip of an airborn player and hit him so hard that he (meaning collins himself) got turned around and still slammed into the padding at the base of the basket. What was his plan if there wasn't contact? To Lambo leep into the stands?

On top of that had he made any effort to go for a block he wouldn't have made contact because he would have had to slow down to try and elevate it. Had he actually tried to contest it would likely have been no foul. But he didn't try to block the shot from behind. He tried to run through a guy elevating for a dunk and take his legs out. And he did just that.
 

orientalnc

Helluva Engineer
Retired Staff
Messages
10,040
Location
Oriental, NC
If the comparison had anything to do with the actions and the consequences we'd be talking about Omar Payne or Kewan Platt.



They weren't going full throttle. One against FSU was a guy who was stationary on an inbound and got tripped off his initial cut. Against UL it was a guy who had gotten a rebound and was just starting to turn up the court having barely taken one dribble. Against Elon the guy was driving to the basket, had gotten cut off and tried to spin move. None of those were anywhere in the same vicinity as dangerous as the play Collins made. Yes they were bush league. No they didn't rise to the level of even warranting an ejection, and the one game suspension was probably in line with what it should have been. It was a meme because it was initially called an indefinite suspension and then changed but a single game suspension for repeated acts like that is pretty much in line with what is normally done (see the NBA's repeated technical foul rules).

Hell the worst Allen has done to my knowledge (the one against Caruso a couple weeks back) is a good comparison only to show just how far beyond even normal dirty plays this play was. At least then Allen still got in front, still made an effort to contest the shot, the contact that was made was still to the wrist holding the ball, and still slowed down. This play was several orders of magnitude worse than that one and that one was a flagrant 2 foul worthy of an ejection.

The comparison to Allen's tripping only serves to downplay just how bad this was, whether that was the intent or not.




There is no way that contact was unintentional. Moore moved his body to align himself with the dunk? What was Collins expecting the basketball player to do with the basketball? Not go to the basket with the ball? Second, Collins did a lot more to go towards Moore than vise versa.

His apology is completely bunk. He was going for a block from behind? That's why he had a gather step, elevated to contest and took a swipe at the ball?

Oh wait, he did none of that. He went full bore, didn't break stride, didn't try to time his steps, didn't jump, didn't contest, made no play on the ball in any way, shape or form, put a forearm into the hip of an airborn player and hit him so hard that he (meaning collins himself) got turned around and still slammed into the padding at the base of the basket. What was his plan if there wasn't contact? To Lambo leep into the stands?

On top of that had he made any effort to go for a block he wouldn't have made contact because he would have had to slow down to try and elevate it. Had he actually tried to contest it would likely have been no foul. But he didn't try to block the shot from behind. He tried to run through a guy elevating for a dunk and take his legs out. And he did just that.
I respect your opinion often, so we will have to accept that we see this differently.
 
Top