ACC Discussion 2020-21

lv20gt

Helluva Engineer
Messages
5,560
orientalnc said:
I agree with you, but Syracuse looked pretty good last night until half the team suffered injuries in the last couple of minutes.
Click to expand...

The best way I can think to describe Cuse is they have some talent, and when they are can be real good, but they are very bad at damage control. For instance if GT and Cuse were both down 10 with 15 to go, I'd expect us to fight back and make it a game with winning chances at some point, and expect Cuse to fold and lose by 15+. Obviously I am biased and there are counter examples for both of those takes but to me that seems to describe the difference between us and Cuse pretty well.

Maybe our resident cuse expert can chime in.
 

Deleted member 2897

Guest
lv20gt said:
The best way I can think to describe Cuse is they have some talent, and when they are can be real good, but they are very bad at damage control. For instance if GT and Cuse were both down 10 with 15 to go, I'd expect us to fight back and make it a game with winning chances at some point, and expect Cuse to fold and lose by 15+. Obviously I am biased and there are counter examples for both of those takes but to me that seems to describe the difference between us and Cuse pretty well.

Maybe our resident cuse expert can chime in.
Click to expand...

I consider Syracuse part of the ACCs really solid middle. But just like Duke, they have a lot of potential but can’t put it all together often. That 23-5 run against us Saturday was crazy. Hard to believe that team hasn’t won more games than they have.
 

lv20gt

Helluva Engineer
Messages
5,560
bwelbo said:
I consider Syracuse part of the ACCs really solid middle. But just like Duke, they have a lot of potential but can’t put it all together often. That 23-5 run against us Saturday was crazy. Hard to believe that team hasn’t won more games than they have.
Click to expand...

To me though our game showed the difference between us and Cuse. Their 23-5 run was crazy and shows what they are capable of when playing well. But the second half seemed to me that both teams were playing like they knew the ending all ready. We seemed confident that we were going to win, and they seemed not sure what to do to try and prevent that fate. It played out almost exactly like a coach would script it for us. First 5 minutes get rid of the lead. Next 5 build a small one ourselves. Next 5 extend the lead to a comfortable margin, then withstand the last grasp attempt at a comeback and win comfortably.

We went from down 5 at half to down 1 at the 15 minute mark, up 4 at the 10 minute mark, up 10 at the 5 minute mark and responded each time in the last 5 minutes that Cuse tried to cut into the lead to win by 7 when they weren't even trying to foul to extend the game. Also, for those thinking I might have just picked cutoff points that fit the story, we actually scored twice after each of those marks.
 
orientalnc

orientalnc

Helluva Engineer
Retired Staff
Messages
9,425
Location
Oriental, NC
lv20gt said:
To me though our game showed the difference between us and Cuse. Their 23-5 run was crazy and shows what they are capable of when playing well. But the second half seemed to me that both teams were playing like they knew the ending all ready. We seemed confident that we were going to win, and they seemed not sure what to do to try and prevent that fate. It played out almost exactly like a coach would script it for us. First 5 minutes get rid of the lead. Next 5 build a small one ourselves. Next 5 extend the lead to a comfortable margin, then withstand the last grasp attempt at a comeback and win comfortably.

We went from down 5 at half to down 1 at the 15 minute mark, up 4 at the 10 minute mark, up 10 at the 5 minute mark and responded each time in the last 5 minutes that Cuse tried to cut into the lead to win by 7 when they weren't even trying to foul to extend the game. Also, for those thinking I might have just picked cutoff points that fit the story, we actually scored twice after each of those marks.
Click to expand...
It would be nice if Pastner could give the starters 2-3 minutes of rest mid-way through the 2nd half. I think games like this, when we have a 8-10 point lead in the final 5 minutes, it is hard to really push through the moments your legs are telling you to slow down.
 
CuseJacket

CuseJacket

Administrator
Staff member
Messages
18,948
lv20gt said:
The best way I can think to describe Cuse is they have some talent, and when they are can be real good, but they are very bad at damage control. For instance if GT and Cuse were both down 10 with 15 to go, I'd expect us to fight back and make it a game with winning chances at some point, and expect Cuse to fold and lose by 15+. Obviously I am biased and there are counter examples for both of those takes but to me that seems to describe the difference between us and Cuse pretty well.

Maybe our resident cuse expert can chime in.
Click to expand...
I agree that they are often bad at damage control but wouldn't attribute it to lack of fight, if that's what you mean. They just simply aren't a great team.

Syracuse has had some big comebacks, including beating ND after being down 20+ shortly after we did the same. It was almost identical in nature - slapped the press on and ND folded. They were down big vs. Bryant (opener) and Buffalo and came back and won both.

They have a team of guys who care but are absent All-ACC caliber players and a leader. That leads to inconsistency and so they have stretches of ineptitude. It's in part because their projected center played 15 minutes this year before being lost to injury. That was a blow to the defense. On offense, their one saving grace last year was Elijah Hughes could create his own shot against anyone. That no longer exists. And they also got hurt more by Covid than us e.g., Girard looks worse than last year after getting Covid in December.
 
orientalnc

orientalnc

Helluva Engineer
Retired Staff
Messages
9,425
Location
Oriental, NC
CuseJacket said:
I agree that they are often bad at damage control but wouldn't attribute it to lack of fight, if that's what you mean. They just simply aren't a great team.

Syracuse has had some big comebacks, including beating ND after being down 20+ shortly after we did the same. It was almost identical in nature - slapped the press on and ND folded. They were down big vs. Bryant (opener) and Buffalo and came back and won both.

They have a team of guys who care but are absent All-ACC caliber players and a leader. That leads to inconsistency and so they have stretches of ineptitude. It's in part because their projected center played 15 minutes this year before being lost to injury. That was a blow to the defense. On offense, their one saving grace last year was Elijah Hughes could create his own shot against anyone. That no longer exists. And they also got hurt more by Covid than us e.g., Girard looks worse than last year after getting Covid in December.
Click to expand...
I thought Syracuse had plenty of fight in them Saturday but lacked the talent/experience to finish. Having talented seniors is a real plus in those situations. Last night they almost collapsed against UNC, but that was due to a sudden rash of injuries in the final minutes. I hope those guys are good to go v. Clemson. Richmond might out. If he is that will really hurt Cuse.
 

GTbball2016

Helluva Engineer
Messages
1,104
Syracuse has always been an incredible pressing team when they have to turn it up. As Cuse said, Girard has been a mess this year. Their fan base is hoping he transfers.
 

YlJacket

Helluva Engineer
Messages
3,190
IMHO last night was more about UNC than SYR. Not to say SYR didn't play well as they did. But UNC did not do anything they needed to do to win that game until SYR was almost playing the water boys.

UNC had a huge advantage inside the zone but the 4 bigs for UNC only took 27 of the 68 shots for UNC. The guards for UNC were both really bad at getting the ball to the high post and incredibly impatient to throw up 3's (4-20). Many of those 3's didn't even hit rim. When the guards did try to get the ball inside, their passes to the bigs were often late when they were not ready for it or had defenders flowing to them leading to 20 turnovers.

SYR did play better D - especially Edwards. So they get some of the credit but man were UNC's guards just flat bad.

That extended to defense where they were playing off Boeheim and got caught on back screens way more than they should have. Boeheim should be a no help guy and make him shoot off the dribble. UNC tried to play him like a normal guy which for them he ain't.

One thing with Boeheim playing Edwards and Dolajez together a fair amount of time, was Guerrier was matched up on a smaller guard a bunch and took advantage of it. With Dolezaj in foul trouble against us we were able to keep a bigger body on him which helped.

It was always going to be a matchup of which style would win out and I expected UNC to pound them inside - instead SYR spread UNC and worked them. Kudos to them but damn were UNC's guards just bad. On the upside goes to show how good our guards were to efficiently feed Moses and Usher et al with the ball when they could make SYR pay.
 

gt24

Jolly Good Fellow
Messages
354
YlJacket said:
IMHO last night was more about UNC than SYR. Not to say SYR didn't play well as they did. But UNC did not do anything they needed to do to win that game until SYR was almost playing the water boys.

UNC had a huge advantage inside the zone but the 4 bigs for UNC only took 27 of the 68 shots for UNC. The guards for UNC were both really bad at getting the ball to the high post and incredibly impatient to throw up 3's (4-20). Many of those 3's didn't even hit rim. When the guards did try to get the ball inside, their passes to the bigs were often late when they were not ready for it or had defenders flowing to them leading to 20 turnovers.

SYR did play better D - especially Edwards. So they get some of the credit but man were UNC's guards just flat bad.

That extended to defense where they were playing off Boeheim and got caught on back screens way more than they should have. Boeheim should be a no help guy and make him shoot off the dribble. UNC tried to play him like a normal guy which for them he ain't.

One thing with Boeheim playing Edwards and Dolajez together a fair amount of time, was Guerrier was matched up on a smaller guard a bunch and took advantage of it. With Dolezaj in foul trouble against us we were able to keep a bigger body on him which helped.

It was always going to be a matchup of which style would win out and I expected UNC to pound them inside - instead SYR spread UNC and worked them. Kudos to them but damn were UNC's guards just bad. On the upside goes to show how good our guards were to efficiently feed Moses and Usher et al with the ball when they could make SYR pay.
Click to expand...
Agree. Regarding your last point... an additional note about GT zone O vs Cuse... our decision making was quick and efficient. We made quick decisive cuts and passes. We hit cutters/flashers in stride. We rarely held the ball and stared. You could see plenty of perimeter ball fakes from guards to setup their passes - they knew where they wanted to go and who they wanted to feed before they made the passes. It's another example this season of very good coaching and smart players (also the beenfit of veteran players). It's pretty damn easy to "run" a zone O midseason after facing mostly m2m defenses all year. It is another thing altogether to "run" zone O and have good timing, reads, decisive execution, and not just settle on making 3s or having superior athleticism. Those split second decisions are the difference between looking great and looking "slow" (poorly coached). It's not as critical vs slower, smaller zone defenses. But against a long, athletic, connected zone D like Cuse, it's a must. What sticks out about Cuse zone D is how incredibly well they move on passes. Ball is in the air and they are all so quick and efficient in their shifts. Offensive players can appear to be very open, and yet, when the pass actually gets to their hands, they are no longer open. Our guards looked well-coached and experienced vs Cuse zone. So did our forwards in their cuts and passes. At no point during the game did it look like we were living/dying by 3s or jump shots. We were consistently attacking the paint with effective/decisive passes, cuts, and drives.
 
LibertyTurns

LibertyTurns

Banned
Messages
6,216
lauraee said:
Click to expand...

Sitting solidly in 3rd place that was a good Covid play. They’re a half game ahead of Looie and Looie gets Vag next. Clemp even if it wins both remaining games does not pass them. They might end up 4th if Looie wins but that’s the worst they’d end up. Who knows how far they’d drop if they lose both remaining games. Worst case that plus a ACCT loss and they end up on the bubble.
 
JacketRacket

JacketRacket

Jolly Good Fellow
Messages
435
LibertyTurns said:
Sitting solidly in 3rd place that was a good Covid play. They’re a half game ahead of Looie and Looie gets Vag next. Clemp even if it wins both remaining games does not pass them. They might end up 4th if Looie wins but that’s the worst they’d end up. Who knows how far they’d drop if they lose both remaining games. Worst case that plus a ACCT loss and they end up on the bubble.
Click to expand...
As long as they don't miss the tourney due to covid protocols. You need 7 consecutive negative tests to be eligible. They're cutting it close.
 

lv20gt

Helluva Engineer
Messages
5,560
Another amazing stat. I believe this is GT's 30th year in the ACC playing at least 16 conference games. This is just the third time we've gotten to double digit wins. We've now done so in back to back years.

Now before anyone points it out, yes last year we had 4 extra games compared to many of the years in this time frame. This year we did it in 16 so shut up. And yes, the ACC isn't as strong as it once was but again shut up.
 

Deleted member 2897

Guest
LibertyTurns said:
Sitting solidly in 3rd place that was a good Covid play. They’re a half game ahead of Looie and Looie gets Vag next. Clemp even if it wins both remaining games does not pass them. They might end up 4th if Looie wins but that’s the worst they’d end up. Who knows how far they’d drop if they lose both remaining games. Worst case that plus a ACCT loss and they end up on the bubble.
Click to expand...

Yup. VT being 5 games over 0.500 and knowing standings are by win percentage means nobody can pass them unless they are at least 6 games over 0.500. Guaranteed a 3rd place ACC finish by sitting out.
 
Top