A Thread to Rehash GT HC Comparisons

[SteamWhistle]

Yet, you did. I haven't seen anyone say recruiting doesn't matter. I look forward to CGC's recruiting classes that compete with Clemson and uga. Of course, using your logic, those will need to come sooner rather than later if he expects to keep his job.

Next year gotta make a bowl year 4 gotta be competitive against UGA.

 

[Oldgoldandwhite]

You must have missed O’Leary once he got things rolling? I kind of miss being ranked 5 years in a row.

Plus beating Georgia like a red headed step child. 3 in a row.

 

[Coloradojacket]

Jut becuase I am bored.... I am going to list the HC who had multiple double digit winning seasons while coaching on the Flats:
1. Paul Johnson: 2009 & 2014
2. Bobby Dodd: 1947, 1951, 1952, & 1956

Coaches with at least one multiple double digit winning season while coaching on the Flats:
1. George O'leary: 1998
2. Bobby Ross: 1990
3. William Alexander: 1928

Georgia Tech has been playing football for 119 seasons and we have only had 9 double digit winning seasons. In the modern era, Georgia Tech has had only 4 double digit winning seasons and two of those came from Paul Johnson.

I hope Geoff Collins can get the team to a double digit winning season, but looking at the previous 119 seasons on the flats he will be lucky to get one nine win season...It is what it Is!!! It is fun watching all his ATL, slogans and great recruiting..... Hopefully it is for more than a couple of 7 win seasons in Year 6 & 7...

Um I consider modern era 1970 and after....so that would be 4

 

[Pointer]

It’s common sense. Tech recruiting in the 50s = 50th ranked team in P5 football. Wake up. What coach across the country is “coaching em up!” Show me a team right now playing above their ceiling because of a direct reflection on coaching. Other then maybe Indiana their isn’t one, And Indiana hasn’t beaten a ranked team.

So do you believe we are playing at our ceiling right now?

 

[cthenrys]

Maybe not dead last in Recruiting, but we have been dead last in getting Guys drafted since maybe 2016, maybe even 2015

Given the fact above we might as well be dead last in Recruiting, at least in the eyes of incoming HS Talent

Don’t care. Win games.

 

[JacketOff]

I went back 4 years b/c that's how long CGC has been a head coach. Monken is 3-12 against P5 opponents, but those 12 losses include Alabama (Southern), Georgia (Southern), Stanford, Oklahoma, Notre Dame, Michigan, and Ohio State. He's 3-5 against Florida (Southern), Duke, Wake, and Rutgers with Army and an FCS team. Note that CGC is 5-13 against P5 opponents with Temple and Tech.

Obviously, you're free to speculate that Tech wouldn't have won more than 5 games with the 3O last year, but we know CGC couldn't win 5 games last year. Some will say that's because of the players. Others will note that CGC has yet to win much of anything as a head coach, and notwithstanding Clemson and Georgia last year, we played an average FCS team and 9 FBS opponents with a combined record of 59-56. Those same people are obviously free to wonder if another type of offense or a different coach would have won more than 3 games last year.

Outside of Michigan and their 2 FCS games, Army’s opponents were 68-65 last year. Monken was 6-18 his first 2 years at Army. He went 7-4 in the regular season and 5-3 in conference his first year at Georgia Southern. CGC went 7-6 and 4-4 in conference his first year at Temple.

At similar points in their careers Monken was not drastically more successful than CGC currently is. Monken took over an Army team that already used the fundamentals of his system and went 4-8 with a loss to an FCS team, and 0-2 against P5. Collins took over a Georgia Tech team who’s offensive foundation was built on completely different fundamentals than the system he runs. He went 3-9 with a loss to an FCS team and 2-7 against P5.

Why are you willing to accept Monken’s early failures and average teams but you aren’t willing to do the same for CGC? In year 2 of their current schools their records are virtually identical, and CGC is at way more of a disadvantage than Monken.

 

[TheTechGuy]

Outside of Michigan and their 2 FCS games, Army’s opponents were 68-65 last year. Monken was 6-18 his first 2 years at Army. He went 7-4 in the regular season and 5-3 in conference his first year at Georgia Southern. CGC went 7-6 and 4-4 in conference his first year at Temple.

At similar points in their careers Monken was not drastically more successful than CGC currently is. Monken took over an Army team that already used the fundamentals of his system and went 4-8 with a loss to an FCS team, and 0-2 against P5. Collins took over a Georgia Tech team who’s offensive foundation was built on completely different fundamentals than the system he runs. He went 3-9 with a loss to an FCS team and 2-7 against P5.

Why are you willing to accept Monken’s early failures and average teams but you aren’t willing to do the same for CGC? In year 2 of their current schools their records are virtually identical, and CGC is at way more of a disadvantage than Monken.

My concern with your comparison, and frankly, the reason I'm willing to be more lenient with Monken's early failures at Army is related to the respective programs. Monken took over an Army program that had 2 winning seasons in the previous 20. In fact, the 4 wins in Monken's first year were tied for the 3rd most wins that Army had in a season for the previous 17 years and the most they'd had since 4 years prior. Army was one of the worst FBS programs in the country when Monken took over.

Contrast that to Collins, who took over a program at Georgia Tech that won 7 games the year prior and had a winning record in conference play. Make no mistake, GT was not a world beater in 2018, but the team was competitive in conference play. More concerning is that this is a pattern with Collins. Temple won 10 games for back-to-back years prior to Collins. In Collins' first year at Temple, he won 7, then 8 the next. The easy response there is that Temple may have lost some key players and that hurt Collins' record. But that begs the question, why hire the guy who hasn't won anything of note as a head coach and either (1) failed to respond to player departures, or (2) did less with the same players? The most likely answer is that Collins' is a good salesman, but that doesn't change the fact that he hasn't done much of anything as a head coach.

Now, you'll want to point out our 5 win season in 2017, but again, we were competitive in conference play and lost 4 games by a combined 12 points. Contrast that with 2019, when we only had 2 single-digit losses, one of those to Citadel.

TLDR: There is no way that CGC is at more of a disadvantage than Monken was his first two years at Army. Army was likely one of the 5 worst FBS programs in the country at the time.

 

[ncjacket79]

My concern with your comparison, and frankly, the reason I'm willing to be more lenient with Monken's early failures at Army is related to the respective programs. Monken took over an Army program that had 2 winning seasons in the previous 20. In fact, the 4 wins in Monken's first year were tied for the 3rd most wins that Army had in a season for the previous 17 years and the most they'd had since 4 years prior. Army was one of the worst FBS programs in the country when Monken took over.

Contrast that to Collins, who took over a program at Georgia Tech that won 7 games the year prior and had a winning record in conference play. Make no mistake, GT was not a world beater in 2018, but the team was competitive in conference play. More concerning is that this is a pattern with Collins. Temple won 10 games for back-to-back years prior to Collins. In Collins' first year at Temple, he won 7, then 8 the next. The easy response there is that Temple may have lost some key players and that hurt Collins' record. But that begs the question, why hire the guy who hasn't won anything of note as a head coach and either (1) failed to respond to player departures, or (2) did less with the same players? The most likely answer is that Collins' is a good salesman, but that doesn't change the fact that he hasn't done much of anything as a head coach.

Now, you'll want to point out our 5 win season in 2017, but again, we were competitive in conference play and lost 4 games by a combined 12 points. Contrast that with 2019, when we only had 2 single-digit losses, one of those to Citadel.

TLDR: There is no way that CGC is at more of a disadvantage than Monken was his first two years at Army. Army was likely one of the 5 worst FBS programs in the country at the time.

Why does that make any difference now? Seems to me you are trying to make a case that we shouldn’t have hired Geoff. Newsflash you’re too late.

 

[Augusta_Jacket]

...that begs the question, why hire the guy who hasn't won anything of note as a head coach and either (1) failed to respond to player departures, or (2) did less with the same players?

1. Not many coaches were lining up to be the guy that transitioned out of the 3O at GT, and
2. as you said, CGC is a salesman and sold TStan that he was the guy to do it.

I've said before that once CPJ retired, it was better for the long term of the program to NOT hire another 3O coach off the CPJ tree because the drop off between CPJ and his proteges is pretty steep. Best to suffer a few years of misery and get GT back in the "mainstream" of P5 football. I'm also on record as saying that CGC doesn't need to win games in a hurry to be successful here. He has to change the (false) narrative that perpetuated over the last few years about GT football and start winning some recruiting battles. So far he's doing pretty good on that front. I'm totally willing to write off recruiting rankings this year due to COVID, but he needs to land another top 25 class next year.

Would Monken have been a better "immediate" hire? Most likely yes. I think he would have won 5-6 games last year and most likely 5-6 games this year. I also think he'd probably be the 3O Gaily all over: 6-7 wins every year with no CPJ ceiling. But we didn't hire Monken, we hired CGC, so I will continue to support him as he rebuilds this program in his image. We will know in a year or two where we are headed. It's still a bit too early to tell right now.

 

[JacketOff]

My concern with your comparison, and frankly, the reason I'm willing to be more lenient with Monken's early failures at Army is related to the respective programs. Monken took over an Army program that had 2 winning seasons in the previous 20. In fact, the 4 wins in Monken's first year were tied for the 3rd most wins that Army had in a season for the previous 17 years and the most they'd had since 4 years prior. Army was one of the worst FBS programs in the country when Monken took over.

Contrast that to Collins, who took over a program at Georgia Tech that won 7 games the year prior and had a winning record in conference play. Make no mistake, GT was not a world beater in 2018, but the team was competitive in conference play. More concerning is that this is a pattern with Collins. Temple won 10 games for back-to-back years prior to Collins. In Collins' first year at Temple, he won 7, then 8 the next. The easy response there is that Temple may have lost some key players and that hurt Collins' record. But that begs the question, why hire the guy who hasn't won anything of note as a head coach and either (1) failed to respond to player departures, or (2) did less with the same players? The most likely answer is that Collins' is a good salesman, but that doesn't change the fact that he hasn't done much of anything as a head coach.

Now, you'll want to point out our 5 win season in 2017, but again, we were competitive in conference play and lost 4 games by a combined 12 points. Contrast that with 2019, when we only had 2 single-digit losses, one of those to Citadel.

TLDR: There is no way that CGC is at more of a disadvantage than Monken was his first two years at Army. Army was likely one of the 5 worst FBS programs in the country at the time.

In the 20 years prior to Monken’s hire at Army, they had 4 different coaches. 3 of them had never had a head coaching job before, 3 of them have not been a head coach since, and one of them hadn’t been a head coach in 13 years before getting the job. The lone coach who has been a head coach since (Todd Berry) went 29-45 at Louisiana Monroe. Does that say more about Army’s football program? Or the coaches leading it? None of their coaches before Monken had been head coaches in the decade before they got the job.

Temple is currently sitting at 1-5. They went 8-5 last year, after going 8-5 and 7-6 with CGC. Their two 10 win seasons in 2015 and 2016 were on the back of a QB who was a 4 year starter and a 3000 yard passer. We’ve established on this board that college football runs through QB play. CGC was able to field decent teams after losing their best player, and his records haven’t been bested since.

Once again, I don’t see any way someone can definitely say Monken was more successful as a coach at the point of his career that CGC is currently in. Monken’s best years at Army were also on the backs on QBs who were 1000 yard rushers. CPJ had 3 QBs who ran for 1000 yards in his GT career; Taquan Marshall in 2017, Justin Thomas in 2014, and Josh Nesbit in 2009. 2 of those players and teams played for ACC championships. Just food for thought.

 

[TheTechGuy]

In the 20 years prior to Monken’s hire at Army, they had 4 different coaches. 3 of them had never had a head coaching job before, 3 of them have not been a head coach since, and one of them hadn’t been a head coach in 13 years before getting the job. The lone coach who has been a head coach since (Todd Berry) went 29-45 at Louisiana Monroe. Does that say more about Army’s football program? Or the coaches leading it? None of their coaches before Monken had been head coaches in the decade before they got the job.

Temple is currently sitting at 1-5. They went 8-5 last year, after going 8-5 and 7-6 with CGC. Their two 10 win seasons in 2015 and 2016 were on the back of a QB who was a 4 year starter and a 3000 yard passer. We’ve established on this board that college football runs through QB play. CGC was able to field decent teams after losing their best player, and his records haven’t been bested since.

Once again, I don’t see any way someone can definitely say Monken was more successful as a coach at the point of his career that CGC is currently in. Monken’s best years at Army were also on the backs on QBs who were 1000 yard rushers. CPJ had 3 QBs who ran for 1000 yards in his GT career; Taquan Marshall in 2017, Justin Thomas in 2014, and Josh Nesbit in 2009. 2 of those players and teams played for ACC championships. Just food for thought.

In the 20 years prior to Monken’s hire at Army, they had 4 different coaches. 3 of them had never had a head coaching job before, 3 of them have not been a head coach since, and one of them hadn’t been a head coach in 13 years before getting the job. The lone coach who has been a head coach since (Todd Berry) went 29-45 at Louisiana Monroe. Does that say more about Army’s football program? Or the coaches leading it? None of their coaches before Monken had been head coaches in the decade before they got the job.

This really just underscores the fact that the program was a disaster before Monken.

Temple is currently sitting at 1-5. They went 8-5 last year, after going 8-5 and 7-6 with CGC. Their two 10 win seasons in 2015 and 2016 were on the back of a QB who was a 4 year starter and a 3000 yard passer. We’ve established on this board that college football runs through QB play. CGC was able to field decent teams after losing their best player, and his records haven’t been bested since.

And Temple fans should be concerned, similar to how many Tech fans are concerned. Using the logic of many posters on this board, I wonder if Temple fans are complaining that CGC left a bare cupboard. Recall, there was a contingent of Temple fans concerned about CGC before we hired him.

Once again, I don’t see any way someone can definitely say Monken was more successful as a coach at the point of his career that CGC is currently in. Monken’s best years at Army were also on the backs on QBs who were 1000 yard rushers. CPJ had 3 QBs who ran for 1000 yards in his GT career; Taquan Marshall in 2017, Justin Thomas in 2014, and Josh Nesbit in 2009. 2 of those players and teams played for ACC championships. Just food for thought.

Setting aside the fact that you've ignored Monken's success at Southern, where he immediately turned a team that was 5-6 the year prior (that ran a different offense) into an immediate playoff contender at the FCS level, I just think you're overestimating the absolute dumpster that was Army football.

Note that our discussion began after you made a sarcastic critique of Monken. It has since meandered over to an early-Collins vs early-Monken comparison. This is likely b/c comparing Monken's head coaching resume to Collins' doesn't fare well for Collins. That's fine, and I think you agree with that point. It's also true that Collins could explode onto the scene and have great years, and that would make me just as happy as you. Though, at this time, I haven't seen much to convince me that will happen, but I do think we'll beat Duke on Saturday. Hope I'm not wrong.

 

[TheTechGuy]

Why does that make any difference now? Seems to me you are trying to make a case that we shouldn’t have hired Geoff. Newsflash you’re too late.

You missed the rhetorical point.

 

[TheTechGuy]

1. Not many coaches were lining up to be the guy that transitioned out of the 3O at GT, and
2. as you said, CGC is a salesman and sold TStan that he was the guy to do it.

I've said before that once CPJ retired, it was better for the long term of the program to NOT hire another 3O coach off the CPJ tree because the drop off between CPJ and his proteges is pretty steep. Best to suffer a few years of misery and get GT back in the "mainstream" of P5 football. I'm also on record as saying that CGC doesn't need to win games in a hurry to be successful here. He has to change the (false) narrative that perpetuated over the last few years about GT football and start winning some recruiting battles. So far he's doing pretty good on that front. I'm totally willing to write off recruiting rankings this year due to COVID, but he needs to land another top 25 class next year.

Would Monken have been a better "immediate" hire? Most likely yes. I think he would have won 5-6 games last year and most likely 5-6 games this year. I also think he'd probably be the 3O Gaily all over: 6-7 wins every year with no CPJ ceiling. But we didn't hire Monken, we hired CGC, so I will continue to support him as he rebuilds this program in his image. We will know in a year or two where we are headed. It's still a bit too early to tell right now.

My point wasn't to say Tech should have hired Monken, it was a critique of the early-Monken, early-Collins comparison made by another poster. The discussion was initially started by his critique of Monken.

Do you have evidence to support that coaches weren't interested in the Tech job post-CPJ? Genuinely curious b/c I never saw any beyond speculation from random posters. There are certainly coaches with offenses better suited to transition from the 3O that were available at the time. Frtiz did it at Southern as they were transitioning to FBS and had great success. No, I would not have hired Fritz, it's just an example of an offense that transitions better.

Final points as rhetorical questions, if we couldn't find coaches that were interested, and our AD couldn't sale the program and opportunity to potential coaches, then why are we paying him? If your implied point is that coaches weren't interested, why should fans have confidence in a coach who was hired b/c no one else was interested?

 

[Ibeeballin]

We almost lost our best player due to Monken. Let him stay at the academies.

i laughed at the Wisconsin example. Since 2015, they have 21 players drafted. That is the reason they are a perennial 9-10 win team

 

[WreckinGT]

We almost lost our best player due to Monken. Let him stay at the academies.

i laughed at the Wisconsin example. Since 2015, they have 21 players drafted. That is the reason they are a perennial 9-10 win team

You should take a look at the recruiting rankings for those guys. Only 4 of them were four star or above. 7 of them were 2 star or unranked coming out of high school. Wisconsin seems to do a better job developing lesser talent (if you believe the recruiting services) than most programs.

 

[slugboy]

I watched Northwestern yesterday. I won’t rate Pat Fitzgerald as a coach from one game, but the have a legit defense

 

[TheTechGuy]

We almost lost our best player due to Monken. Let him stay at the academies.

i laughed at the Wisconsin example. Since 2015, they have 21 players drafted. That is the reason they are a perennial 9-10 win team

I’m constantly finding humor in your analysis and CGC fanboy posts. It’s only fair that you would find humor in my post about Wisconsin out-performing their recruiting rankings.

 

[Ibeeballin]

I’m constantly finding humor in your analysis and CGC fanboy posts. It’s only fair that you would find humor in my post about Wisconsin out-performing their recruiting rankings.

My concern with your comparison, and frankly, the reason I'm willing to be more lenient with Monken's early failures at Army is related to the respective programs. Monken took over an Army program that had 2 winning seasons in the previous 20. In fact, the 4 wins in Monken's first year were tied for the 3rd most wins that Army had in a season for the previous 17 years and the most they'd had since 4 years prior. Army was one of the worst FBS programs in the country when Monken took over.

Contrast that to Collins, who took over a program at Georgia Tech that won 7 games the year prior and had a winning record in conference play. Make no mistake, GT was not a world beater in 2018, but the team was competitive in conference play. More concerning is that this is a pattern with Collins. Temple won 10 games for back-to-back years prior to Collins. In Collins' first year at Temple, he won 7, then 8 the next. The easy response there is that Temple may have lost some key players and that hurt Collins' record. But that begs the question, why hire the guy who hasn't won anything of note as a head coach and either (1) failed to respond to player departures, or (2) did less with the same players? The most likely answer is that Collins' is a good salesman, but that doesn't change the fact that he hasn't done much of anything as a head coach.

Now, you'll want to point out our 5 win season in 2017, but again, we were competitive in conference play and lost 4 games by a combined 12 points. Contrast that with 2019, when we only had 2 single-digit losses, one of those to Citadel.

TLDR: There is no way that CGC is at more of a disadvantage than Monken was his first two years at Army. Army was likely one of the 5 worst FBS programs in the country at the time.

Extremely flawed arguments like your Temple example is why i laugh

 

[Pointer]

Over the past 4 years, Monken is 27 and 14 against FBS schools with a win over Duke, a P5 team and Collins’ Temple team. He also lost to a ranked Ohio State, Michigan (2 OT), and Oklahoma (OT). Yes, they had a down year last year, which is why you only went back 2 years. However, if they can reschedule the AF game, a 3rd double-digit win season in 4 years is still possible. Additionally, Army has been ranked various times over those 4 years.

Now, CGC over the past 4 years: 19 and 23 against FBS. Never had a team ranked in the top 25.

Again, I don’t understand the sarcastic criticism of Monken. It’s fine if you don’t want him at GT, but the dude has won an unprecedented amount of games at Army. In fact, if he continues his current success at Army, he’ll likely be in the College Football Hall of Fame.

Monkey doesn't have enough elite juice. Lol

Seriously the record speaks for itself. Looks like Monken can coach, while the jury is still out on CGC. Doesn't mean CGC won't be a good coach, but it's asinine to say CGC is a better coach than Monken at this point.

 

[Pointer]

Why does that make any difference now? Seems to me you are trying to make a case that we shouldn’t have hired Geoff. Newsflash you’re too late.

You know that's not what he was saying, he was simply responding to your guys argument.