A Thread to Rehash GT HC Comparisons

[GTBandit22]

Thanks for those who actually laid out their expectations for Geoff. I’m tickled by those who just refuse to do so; “‘give Collins a chance’ means give Collins an opportunity to see fruits of recruiting DUH.” Well, what does THAT mean? Does that mean you think Collins will win an ACC title or an orange bowl or beat UGA etc at some point in the near future?

for those who think we will see some good times in 3 more years, does that mean we should settle for mediocrity in the meantime?

Accepting something you have no control over is a healthy way to go through life. I don’t think it is accepting mediocrity to let it play out.

I have a couple of questions for you:

What is mediocrity to you? How many wins per year?

Is beating Clemson and Georgia as they currently stand, program-wise, the same thing as beating them 5-10 years ago?

is winning an ACC harder to do now or 10 years ago?

Is Mississippi State accepting mediocrity right now?

As a big CPJ fan/supporter and a big CGC supporter this is where I’m at:
I think PJ got the most out of his talent, and was an offensive genius. I think people give a lot of credit to the system he ran instead of the man who ran it. To say we should have hired Monken or Ken N is giving what is rightly PJ’s to a system, and I think he was more than that. I would hope at this point of the rebuild, even his detractors can see we had a top football coach here for a decade, and he made miracles happen from beginning(new offensive system with converted DL on the OL) to end(2018 team being bowl eligible with some good wins despite the roster).

On GC, there are many things I like, but I’ll give my concerns:
-I don’t think he is a great in game manager yet. There are some baffling fake punt/ go for it on your own side decisions I’m not a fan of but hopefully the frequency will go down. PJ wasn’t immune from some head scratchers either.
- David vs Goliath strategy- I liked the flex because it was a David strategy. We may not have a 6’5 slinger and monster tackles but we are going to stretch you sideline to sideline and north south. Can we win running what everyone else runs? I don’t know, but we have to wait a bit longer to turn the roster over more. I think we can run a system that prepares guys for the pros and gets a little more creative. Not necessarily an option offense or an air raid, but perhaps not generic zone read college football offense.
- special teams- for a team that was bad at kicking last year, to be the worst in the nation at it this season is worrying. We got a RG in the transfer portal, we recruited multiple WR and CB who haven’t played much but we did not go get a kicker. Because of that, it makes me think they are fine with what we have. The fact that nobody on the team can make a chip shot and every XP is an adventure is unacceptable. In my mind, this might show a lack of coaching ability, discernment of ability, roster management, or all of the above. It’s just a microcosm of what many people are worried about.

Thanks for coming to my TED talk

 

[BuzzStone]

Not true. There are many times we got people to jump.

Why not take the delay of game then? It was only 5 yards and we have one of the best punters in the league.

 

[gtg936g]

Why not take the delay of game then? It was only 5 yards and we have one of the best punters in the league.

In many cases we just went for it and got it. CPJ would see how the defense would line up and send a play and a check into the huddle for the qb to call.

 

[gtg936g]

This should be all GT fans. Unfortunately we have “fans” like you and about 8-10 others on here who are actively rooting against a guy who signed a 7 year deal.

I’ll take a swing as a “Collins faithful” member. Next year I’d be disappointed if we won less than 5 and surprised if we win more than 7. Anywhere in the middle is expected.

The following year I would be surprised if we won less than 7 and more than 9.

After that I don’t expect to fall below 7. If we aren’t there, that’s when I think it’s fair to turn up the heat.

I am not rooting against him or GT. I just don't like him. There is a difference. I still donate and support the players/staff even though I think we made a mistake bringing Collins in.

 

[GT_05]

Accepting something you have no control over is a healthy way to go through life. I don’t think it is accepting mediocrity to let it play out.

I have a couple of questions for you:

What is mediocrity to you? How many wins per year?

Is beating Clemson and Georgia as they currently stand, program-wise, the same thing as beating them 5-10 years ago?

is winning an ACC harder to do now or 10 years ago?

Is Mississippi State accepting mediocrity right now?

As a big CPJ fan/supporter and a big CGC supporter this is where I’m at:
I think PJ got the most out of his talent, and was an offensive genius. I think people give a lot of credit to the system he ran instead of the man who ran it. To say we should have hired Monken or Ken N is giving what is rightly PJ’s to a system, and I think he was more than that. I would hope at this point of the rebuild, even his detractors can see we had a top football coach here for a decade, and he made miracles happen from beginning(new offensive system with converted DL on the OL) to end(2018 team being bowl eligible with some good wins despite the roster).

On GC, there are many things I like, but I’ll give my concerns:
-I don’t think he is a great in game manager yet. There are some baffling fake punt/ go for it on your own side decisions I’m not a fan of but hopefully the frequency will go down. PJ wasn’t immune from some head scratchers either.
- David vs Goliath strategy- I liked the flex because it was a David strategy. We may not have a 6’5 slinger and monster tackles but we are going to stretch you sideline to sideline and north south. Can we win running what everyone else runs? I don’t know, but we have to wait a bit longer to turn the roster over more. I think we can run a system that prepares guys for the pros and gets a little more creative. Not necessarily an option offense or an air raid, but perhaps not generic zone read college football offense.
- special teams- for a team that was bad at kicking last year, to be the worst in the nation at it this season is worrying. We got a RG in the transfer portal, we recruited multiple WR and CB who haven’t played much but we did not go get a kicker. Because of that, it makes me think they are fine with what we have. The fact that nobody on the team can make a chip shot and every XP is an adventure is unacceptable. In my mind, this might show a lack of coaching ability, discernment of ability, roster management, or all of the above. It’s just a microcosm of what many people are worried about.

Thanks for coming to my TED talk

Well said. Nice demonstration of how to be pro-CPJ and pro-CGC. In the end, we are all pro-GT and just want some W’s and the thought that we can give Clemson and UGA a good game.

My concerns about our current state of affairs mirror yours. For many seasons with CPJ, I felt like we always had a shot, even against bigger schools with massive budgets and high-level recruits. CPJ and the scheme helped level the playing field but that advantage diminished, unfortunately. I want to see this through with CGC but we look vanilla and we are sloppy in all three phases of the game. There is no team in D-1 that I would guarantee that we can beat right now. I knew the switch from the TO would be bad but...geez.

 

[BuzzStone]

In many cases we just went for it and got it. CPJ would see how the defense would line up and send a play and a check into the huddle for the qb to call.

Correct me if I am wrong but it hasn't worked one time since CGC took over.

 

[stech81]

CGC may be a good coach and the players may like him but he still has a long long way to be a great coach.

 

[SOWEGA Jacket]

So you think we will get to .500 about 2022? Do you think that high end players love our new system and we will get some 5* talent this cycle or next?

Getting 5 star talent isn’t even the measuring stick. There are so few 5 stars and the current crop of 5 stars have been recruited by the factories since 7th grade. It’s not realistic to think Collins in less than 2 years can steal a 5 star NFL thinking kid that‘s been pumped by Ohio State, Bama, UGA, and Clemson since he was 14. The reason Collins was given a 7 year contract is precisely because of this. It takes years to build relationships with high end players. So while we are all belly aching over results in meaningless years, Collins and staff are building those relationships with 14-16 year old future studs and their coaches. The fact that Collins was able to get Jamious Griffin within a month of being on the job and Gibbs within a year shows that the appeal to play in Atlanta is huge. Point being give him 4-6 years and we’ll totally transform our mindset of the player we can get. Right now, Collins will be judged on kids in the 8th to 11th grade. For the next two years, we’ll definitely be around .500 or a little higher. While other teams are losing players they need, we’ll be losing players who need to go. I know that sounds harsh, but this is a tough business and our record over the last 4 years with a bunch of these guys is nothing to brag about.

I know it seems dark right now, but we’ve played 2 of the top 3 teams in the country so yes we’ve gotten our teeth kicked in. And BC proved what Collins has been saying about size. Their big guys just dominated our little guys. UCF and Syracuse were just turnovers with more experienced QB’s. Sims days will come.

 

[Skeptic]

People that refuse to lose:

don't lose to MTSU in boat-raced fashion

don't lose to "Kansas State"

don't lose to Duke 4 out of 5 years during years 7 thru 11 of their tenure

People get on CGC about UCF, but under the previous HC, did we have a "snowball's chance in hell" of beating BYU, a similar G5 level Program, I wonder why?

Look, if you are going to start second guessing me then I am not dealing with you. Now before you go off, I am kidding. I can't contradict your points, but I always felt we had a chance with Johnson. Collins may get there, and if I may fall back on the timeless bromide, time will tell.

 

[gt02]

Correct me if I am wrong but it hasn't worked one time since CGC took over.

The best part about this - even after a timeout, we didn’t figure out a 4th and 1 run up the gut of Clemson’s defense was a terrible idea? Maybe next time we should suggest A Brown arm-wrestle the NT for the first down.

 

[gt02]

As much as I dislike Collins, he needs until the 2022 season to get to .500 IMO. I actually give him a pass this year due to Covid. He deserves credit for keeping our players safe. Compared to other programs he has done a better job.

2022 may be fine for the W/L record. But the question is what metrics do we use to evaluate his efforts now? I am not judging off W/L. But I am judging the decision making.

 

[SOWEGA Jacket]

Look, if you are going to start second guessing me then I am not dealing with you. Now before you go off, I am kidding. I can't contradict your points, but I always felt we had a chance with Johnson. Collins may get there, and if I may fall back on the timeless bromide, time will tell.

I feel you on feeling that we always had a chance. But honestly, that became a Jedi mind trick the last several seasons. Collins may stink and get fired. Or we’ll get back to the point like we were under O’Leary and Chan where we have similar size and talent if not better than most of our opponents and our success or failure isn‘t determined by if a linebacker stays with the pitch man or not. I’d rather be able to do what BC did to us which is just line up and manhandle our opponent.

 

[g0lftime]

Next year will be the real indicator of GC ability as a head coach. If we continue to be one of the worst defenses and can't even kick an extra point or FG, then he better make some major staff changes. I am still not convinced his OC and DC are P5 level . We do need to recognize most of these guys were at a lower level and weren't exactly tearing it up. Collins has only been a HC for 3 1/2 years so he has some "learning" to do. Will he ever prove he can be competitive at Tech and how many years will he be given. If he still has not had a winning season after year 3 here then he is not up to the task at this point in his career especially with who he surrounds himself with. He may get there someday in the future but may not be with us. So far I would say he should have stayed at Temple. He has shown he is a pretty darn good recruiter but that is only one part of being successful against experienced and seasoned P5 coaches.

 

[Lee]

He will never be .600, overall, nor in a single season.

Then stop watching and go watch army or navy on Saturdays. If you’re right, you can come back after he’s gone.

The rest of us, with the right expectations, will watch a young team continue to grow and improve as we get the right pieces in and cheer along the way.

If it doesn’t work out, we will be frustrated and disappointed, yet still hopeful because the cupboard will be overflowing with talent for the next coach compared to what it was when Collins walked in.

 

[Lee]

I want to be a CGC fan. I want to believe he is showing improvement. I want to see a Tech team that looks impressive. That someone is not blindly impressed with the team as of today should not be labeled as a "Collins faithful".

I’m not asking anyone to be blindly impressed with the team as of today.

I and many others are asking for people to have realistic expectations. GT is supposed to produce critical thinkers but it seems like that has gone missing from some (I’m not throwing you in this boat because I haven’t seen enough of your posts).

I don’t think there is much to be impressed by watching the team as it is. There have been improvements though. That is what most of us are looking for/at. I’m not talking about wins/losses or even unit specific improvements though. We had/have a massive overhaul. I’ll point out some specific ones below:

1. OL- our OL is still not great, maybe not even good, but you can tell they’ve taken to Key’s coaching and are playing markedly better than last year.
2. QB - Sims is a freshman and has made many mistakes, but it’s clear to anyone watching he opens up so much more of the playbook and is a big upgrade over what we had last year.
3. DE- we had virtually no pass rush last year. Our DE play has been way better this year and young guys are continuing to get better.
4. RB/running game- we have 4 guys who can play at a high level and potentially one of the best backs in the country playing for us. The skill is better as is the overall running game from last year.
5. CB - last year all we had was Swilling. I think Walton May have surpassed him this year, but both are good and having Oliver has helped with depth. This unit is improved over last year.
6. TE - we’ve added depth here and they have become more (though still not enough) of a threat in the passing game. They’ve also gained size to help with protection. This unit is improved also.

We are not a good team right now. That’s a fact. Could we have more wins if we were still running the TO? Probably. We chose to go away from that and it’s not something that will happen overnight.

My advise would be to look for the areas we are improving on. It will make this season a lot easier.

I’m not some everybody gets a trophy guy either, I still yell at my tv during games, and I hate losing. That will never go away. What has helped me though is taking some time after games to process things and look at the big picture and where I think we’re headed. I have concerns, but until At least the end of this year and most likely next year, it’s hard to know if they are warranted.

 

[Lee]

I am not rooting against him or GT. I just don't like him. There is a difference. I still donate and support the players/staff even though I think we made a mistake bringing Collins in.

You don’t have to like him. You can think it’s a mistake, but making that judgment now is irrelevant.

If you feel the same way in 2 years, then it’s worth a conversation. Nothing is going to happen before then. And as I mentioned earlier, I’d he is the wrong guy and it doesn’t work out, the next coach will be walking into a much better situation than he did. So you should want him to succeed and enjoy his branding because it’s only going to be good for GT longterm.

 

[stech81]

This is football and like any other fan base most think the same way. I don't care what you have done in the past I'll judge you by what I see you doing today. The past is history and the future may not come and may not so I judge by what I see today.
Some judge but recruiting and seeing Improvement I judge by the only thing that matters to me wins

 

[gtg936g]

Getting 5 star talent isn’t even the measuring stick. There are so few 5 stars and the current crop of 5 stars have been recruited by the factories since 7th grade. It’s not realistic to think Collins in less than 2 years can steal a 5 star NFL thinking kid that‘s been pumped by Ohio State, Bama, UGA, and Clemson since he was 14. The reason Collins was given a 7 year contract is precisely because of this. It takes years to build relationships with high end players. So while we are all belly aching over results in meaningless years, Collins and staff are building those relationships with 14-16 year old future studs and their coaches. The fact that Collins was able to get Jamious Griffin within a month of being on the job and Gibbs within a year shows that the appeal to play in Atlanta is huge. Point being give him 4-6 years and we’ll totally transform our mindset of the player we can get. Right now, Collins will be judged on kids in the 8th to 11th grade. For the next two years, we’ll definitely be around .500 or a little higher. While other teams are losing players they need, we’ll be losing players who need to go. I know that sounds harsh, but this is a tough business and our record over the last 4 years with a bunch of these guys is nothing to brag about.

I know it seems dark right now, but we’ve played 2 of the top 3 teams in the country so yes we’ve gotten our teeth kicked in. And BC proved what Collins has been saying about size. Their big guys just dominated our little guys. UCF and Syracuse were just turnovers with more experienced QB’s. Sims days will come.

This doesn't make sense. If it was our system that the players hated then that has changed and Collins should be able to compete. Many of the schools that get 5* talent had coaching changes before current 8th graders graduated and I don't think any schools are aware of who the best 8th grade player is in the nation.


In 2016 we were 9-4 with wins over UGA, a ranked VA Tech, and a bowl win over Kentucky. I'd say that is pretty good. If you were meaning the 2017-2020 seasons as 4 years then I agree with you, but keep in mind Collins owns 50% of those.

My fear with Collins is that he won't win even when he gets a team full of his recruits. I have seen nothing to demonstrate that he is more than a talker with a pedestrian coaching mind.

 

[Skeptic]

2022 may be fine for the W/L record. But the question is what metrics do we use to evaluate his efforts now? I am not judging off W/L. But I am judging the decision making.

My second hand impression -- a friend who is close friends with one of the head coaches -- is that the ACC coaches aren't sold on Collins. In itself it is meaningless -- I am fairly certain he is not sold on some of the ACC coaches, either -- but if that is a professional judgment based on fundamentals and execution along with game day decision making, then it has meaning. In the sense that those coaches wanted Johnson to stay at Tech despite the difficulty of his offense, but that made it easier to recruit the Atlanta area for prime players Johnson could not get, then they were not happy that a "conventional" offensive coach came to town. But it may not be professional because football coaches can be the most churlish of men. In which case this has been a stream of consciousness post.

 

[TheJuiceIsLoose]

Next year will be the real indicator of GC ability as a head coach.

Next year will the real indicator?

Huh?

Heck, we need 8 OLs and we also need 8 interior DLs in this Recruiting Class to all come in as early Entry in Jan-2021 and get them in the S&C proGRAM (CGC voice) and hope they develop quickly enough to give us "rotation playing time from Gm1"

Unless Wing Green is the next Orlando Pace, then we are looking weak on the OL again

We could literally Roster Mgmt 10 guys into the Portal, sign 10 guys early, then sign the normal 25 guys "late" and use all the schollies on OLs, DLs, TEs, LBs and I wouldn't be able to lodge any complaints at all

That's how bad we need OLs, TEs, and Front-7 Defensive guys

We could literally use all "35 potential schollies" on OL's, TEs, DLs, and LBs and no one would have a legit complaint

To summarize, next year will not be an indicator of CGC's ability to "coach", it will be an indicator of his ability to minimize the numbers of crises that we have next yr