A Thread to Rehash GT HC Comparisons

jgtengineer

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Most of the posters who are questioning Collins have in common that they measure the team by watching the ball when Tech is on offense. There is a lot more to the game than that.

I wish they had sat with me at the ND game. I intentionally sat as close to the field as I could during the first half to watch line play close up. However, the thing that struck me was the comparative speed on defense. ND was so much faster than Tech, something that is not as noticeable on TV. Of course, it also helps make a team look faster when the DL is keeping blockers off the LBs.

This isn't surprising. We lost 8 starters on D from Johnson's last year--then we lost Adams. Johnson didn't leave behind a lot of underclassmen to back fill the graduates from his last year on the defensive front--and if you don't believe me, look at the ATL chart.

The idea that Johnson would have had substantially more success in 2019 and 2020 is view that is singularly focused on the offense. The defense likely would have been his worst yet, and we didn't exactly have great defenses under Johnson.

Johnson's offense when working protected his D. it is a team game. So lets look at what johnson may have had on offense this year. (i think if he had won 7-8 games last year he'd have retired anyway though)

James Graham is your Starting QB followed by Yates.
Oliver is at Aback
BB is Jordan mason and Howard.
AB Core -most of the speedy guys who transfered, Griffen and Smith here too.

Your line has Cooper at center Lee at tackle or guard. Hanson At the other.

Your Starting Receivers are Likely Camp and Carter.

Do I think we win a ton of games this year? Nope not at all. Do I think we win more? Yep. Graham throwing the Deep ball keeps defenses honest and boxes not stacked we end up with a death march type offense and boom shots to camp or Carter. We probably still lose to clemson, though maybe not by as much, we probably still lose to ND (though since htey play the same kind of possession limiting offense maybe we get lucky) I don't think we lose to syracuse. And we probably don't play UCF and instead have scheduled an FCS school Or Sunbelt team so that's an extra win (which is what collins should have done schedule a south alabama or something someone we can beat up on to gain confidence going into that stretch since everything was open)

Its all speculative. Hell BJS might even have been at B-Back with Howard as a big A-Back.
 

SOWEGA Jacket

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So you think we were focused most in keeping Sims healthy through the gauntlet in our schedule?
I never said that our staff was “focused most”. I said it’s obvious that after Sims got rocked several times and with 3 big teams along with 2 of the top 4 in the country coming up that they told Sims to either get down or get out of bounds. I think that’s a smart call. He’s already shown he can get upfield when he wants as he did in the FSU game, but he also shown he can get blown up. I like the safe approach right now. The days will come when the extra yards matter, but getting your QB destroyed in lopsided losses is a bad plan.
 

slugboy

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Most of the posters who are questioning Collins have in common that they measure the team by watching the ball when Tech is on offense. There is a lot more to the game than that.

I wish they had sat with me at the ND game. I intentionally sat as close to the field as I could during the first half to watch line play close up. However, the thing that struck me was the comparative speed on defense. ND was so much faster than Tech, something that is not as noticeable on TV. Of course, it also helps make a team look faster when the DL is keeping blockers off the LBs.

This isn't surprising. We lost 8 starters on D from Johnson's last year--then we lost Adams. Johnson didn't leave behind a lot of underclassmen to back fill the graduates from his last year on the defensive front--and if you don't believe me, look at the ATL chart.

The idea that Johnson would have had substantially more success in 2019 and 2020 is view that is singularly focused on the offense. The defense likely would have been his worst yet, and we didn't exactly have great defenses under Johnson.
The video replays have been good quality, and you can see a good bit with them
 

GTRanj2

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I never said that our staff was “focused most”. I said it’s obvious that after Sims got rocked several times and with 3 big teams along with 2 of the top 4 in the country coming up that they told Sims to either get down or get out of bounds. I think that’s a smart call. He’s already shown he can get upfield when he wants as he did in the FSU game, but he also shown he can get blown up. I like the safe approach right now. The days will come when the extra yards matter, but getting your QB destroyed in lopsided losses is a bad plan.
Ok gotcha, I'm just trying to understand your point of view. So you think it's better to play it safe when we are clearly losing but not when the game is winnable.
 

Vespidae

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Can't wait to go back to the triple option, y'all! IT WAS PERFECT

Bear Bryant, Nick Saban and Lou Holtz - all pretty good coaches - describes the TO as the most lethal offense and very difficult to defend against. It was impressive.

But the game has changed. The NFL is a passing game now and with the TO, you can’t recruit a dual threat QB. Which means you can’t the WRs, which means you can’t get the OL. Who needs pass protection if you don’t pass?

Tech will make the transition but unless Collins finds an offensive genius, it’s our guys vs their guys and everyone is running the same schemes. Playing a game with no edge means eventually, you revert to the mean.

Which is 7-5 year end and year out.
 

stech81

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Bear Bryant, Nick Saban and Lou Holtz - all pretty good coaches - describes the TO as the most lethal offense and very difficult to defend against. It was impressive.

But the game has changed. The NFL is a passing game now and with the TO, you can’t recruit a dual threat QB. Which means you can’t the WRs, which means you can’t get the OL. Who needs pass protection if you don’t pass?

Tech will make the transition but unless Collins finds an offensive genius, it’s our guys vs their guys and everyone is running the same schemes. Playing a game with no edge means eventually, you revert to the mean.

Which is 7-5 year end and year out.
The sad part I'm about ready to say I'll take the 7-5 . ( Sad ain't it )
 

vespinaeGT

Jolly Good Fellow
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Johnson's offense when working protected his D. it is a team game. So lets look at what johnson may have had on offense this year. (i think if he had won 7-8 games last year he'd have retired anyway though)

James Graham is your Starting QB followed by Yates.
Oliver is at Aback
BB is Jordan mason and Howard.
AB Core -most of the speedy guys who transfered, Griffen and Smith here too.

Your line has Cooper at center Lee at tackle or guard. Hanson At the other.

Your Starting Receivers are Likely Camp and Carter.

Do I think we win a ton of games this year? Nope not at all. Do I think we win more? Yep. Graham throwing the Deep ball keeps defenses honest and boxes not stacked we end up with a death march type offense and boom shots to camp or Carter. We probably still lose to clemson, though maybe not by as much, we probably still lose to ND (though since htey play the same kind of possession limiting offense maybe we get lucky) I don't think we lose to syracuse. And we probably don't play UCF and instead have scheduled an FCS school Or Sunbelt team so that's an extra win (which is what collins should have done schedule a south alabama or something someone we can beat up on to gain confidence going into that stretch since everything was open)

Its all speculative. Hell BJS might even have been at B-Back with Howard as a big A-Back.
I'm not sure we would have gotten J Griffin at RB if CPJ had stayed, and I don't think BJS would have moved to offense. But other than that I generally agree. We would have beaten Syracuse and definitely played BC closer. Clemson and ND would be losses, but closer.
 

SOWEGA Jacket

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Ok gotcha, I'm just trying to understand your point of view. So you think it's better to play it safe when we are clearly losing but not when the game is winnable.

I do agree with that view, but it’s not mine. It’s what’s happening. In the FSU game Sims ran hard and picked up those first downs. Fast forward 5 games later and it’s obvious he has been told to get down or out of bounds. He won’t do that when the game is close or when we are back to winning. Now I do have a point of view that in no way should Gibbs ever return another kick. He is way to valuable to take those shots. Now, if it’s the ACCCG or playoffs then by all means every team pulls out all the stops but right now we need to stay healthy, turn the roster with another class and keep working. Our prize is not today.
 

SOWEGA Jacket

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I'm not sure we would have gotten J Griffin at RB if CPJ had stayed, and I don't think BJS would have moved to offense. But other than that I generally agree. We would have beaten Syracuse and definitely played BC closer. Clemson and ND would be losses, but closer.
I just don’t see it. The scheme was a known entity and the passing side of the scheme had gotten worse with every QB. Taquon couldn’t pass. Oliver couldn’t pass. We had no QB who could run the option and make them pay over the top. Sure, we had flashes but there was zero consistency. One penalty and it killed a drive. No way we get Griffin or Gibbs. And Syracuse still torches our D. Do we score more points and have more yards. Probably. But the change is all about what can we do to create a program that higher end players want to play in and be more competitive in the ACC. We are on the right track. I would have loved for Johnson to have signed 4 star RB’s and WR’s and a Justin Fields at QB. He had his chance to do just that, but Fields probably never answered the phone. Did we even try to get him or similar guys? And if we did why couldn’t he get them?
 

takethepoints

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Yep, also CJ Leggett started in 2014, but never played due to injury, then transferred.
And Quaid got a season ending injury too. We lost both our prospective starting and backup BBs in 2015 right before the season started. Hard to come back from that. But CJ was slated for 2015, not 14.

Injuries and transfers spoiled the schedule for starting BBs too. I'm guessing on all this. It would have been CJ (he might have been the fastest person Paul ever recruited for the position) in 15 and 16. Mills and/or Marshall in 17 and 18. Benson in 19 and 20. Mason and/or Howard in 21. And if we had been able to do that as well as keep Ratliff and Jordan healthy, the records for those years would have been much better. People forget that we were actually pretty competitive in 2015, despite the injury tsunami.
 

takethepoints

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I just don’t see it. The scheme was a known entity and the passing side of the scheme had gotten worse with every QB. Taquon couldn’t pass. Oliver couldn’t pass.

or


You were saying?

Look, neither of them were real houses-on-fire throwing the ball; we recruited them mainly because they could run (and could they ever). But both of them could throw if they had the time.

Btw, it would be fun to see Stewart and Lynch on our team now. They never really had the chance to show what they could do.
 
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billga99

Georgia Tech Fan
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I really don't think Johnson is the comparison. We moved from the 3O and I don't think we will go back. So the comparisons with Collins is how does he compare to more traditional teams like Gailey and O'Leary. I wouldn't go back to Ross since I think that is too long ago. Gailey recruited on par his last couple of years with Collins and had a far superior Defense. But his offenses were not very imaginative. How we lost to Wake Forest 9-6 with Calvin Johnson is still beyond me. O'Leary had much better offenses (thought clearly Ralph F helped with that). His defenses were up and down but overall certainly better than today. Part of today is clearly the roster but I think both of these previous coaches set the team up better and made far superior adjustments. I think Collins will recruit comparable talent but coaching up our team to be successful remains to be seen. I think the continued comparison to Johnson is the wrong one based on the decision to move away from the 3O.
 

Vespidae

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I really don't think Johnson is the comparison. We moved from the 3O and I don't think we will go back. So the comparisons with Collins is how does he compare to more traditional teams like Gailey and O'Leary. I wouldn't go back to Ross since I think that is too long ago. Gailey recruited on par his last couple of years with Collins and had a far superior Defense. But his offenses were not very imaginative. How we lost to Wake Forest 9-6 with Calvin Johnson is still beyond me. O'Leary had much better offenses (thought clearly Ralph F helped with that). His defenses were up and down but overall certainly better than today. Part of today is clearly the roster but I think both of these previous coaches set the team up better and made far superior adjustments. I think Collins will recruit comparable talent but coaching up our team to be successful remains to be seen. I think the continued comparison to Johnson is the wrong one based on the decision to move away from the 3O.
Interesting comment. We may as well compare Geoff to Bill Fulcher and Bud Carson.

One of the things people forget is that Bobby Dodd has a lifetime win rate of 70%. Dodd was trained by Bob Neyland who had Seven Maxims to win a game. Despite all the changes over the years, those maxims are still true today.

That is the real benchmark. Not how are you doing vs another coach. But how how are you doing against a football strategy?
 

SOWEGA Jacket

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or


You were saying?

Look, neither of them were real houses-on-fire throwing the ball; we recruited them mainly because they could run (and could they ever). But both of them could throw if they had the time.

Btw, it would be fun to see Stewart and Lynch on our team now. They never really had the chance to show what they could do.
Nice cherry picking. I said we had flashes but there was zero consistency. I could post highlights of any player making a play or two. That doesn’t mean they were good. Johnson’s biggest failure was never finding his Tracy Ham at GT.
 

GTRanj2

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Nice cherry picking. I said we had flashes but there was zero consistency. I could post highlights of any player making a play or two. That doesn’t mean they were good. Johnson’s biggest failure was never finding his Tracy Ham at GT.
So you think johnson never had a legitimate qb? (As in good fit for his offense?)
 

jacket_fan

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This should be all GT fans. Unfortunately we have “fans” like you and about 8-10 others on here who are actively rooting against a guy who signed a 7 year deal.

I’ll take a swing as a “Collins faithful” member. Next year I’d be disappointed if we won less than 5 and surprised if we win more than 7. Anywhere in the middle is expected.

The following year I would be surprised if we won less than 7 and more than 9.

After that I don’t expect to fall below 7. If we aren’t there, that’s when I think it’s fair to turn up the heat.
Yes Lee, I am a fan. Forgive me if I do not have gold colored glasses this year.

I expected Tech to win 6 games this season. And I expected the team to be overall improved over last season. I expected to see game to game improvement.

To say I or 8-10 others are actively rooting against CGC is debatable.

I desperately want to see him succeed. I actually enjoy watching Tech win.

But there are those on this board that tell me that is not a barometer for CGC. Wins are not important. For some reason, all the loses the past two years are CPJ's fault. And CGC cannot be held responsible for the teams performance.

As a fan I suffered through Pepper Rogers, Bill Curry, Bobby Ross, B*** L****, George O'Leary, Chan Gaily. Their first years were not always impressive. But I worry this team is more like the B*** L**** teams than the others. I expected this coaching staff to produce miracles. I bought into all of CGC's hype. That the team would compete with the teams on a tough schedule.

The loss to Clemson was historic. The defense is not improved over last year. Maybe others have seen it, but there has been no game to game improvement. With 4 games to go, maybe we will see something to make me eat my words. I hope so. But each of those coaches was held responsible for the teams performance. And the wins and loses.

Your predictions for the next two years would be great. However, my expectation for next year would be a minimum of 6 wins and a bowl game.
 
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