A Thread to Rehash GT HC Comparisons

[gtg936g]

This is where so many fans frustrate me. Do you have any clue as to when Collins was hired and when his “first class” had to sign? He was hired on December 7 and that first class was signed on February 6. That’s less than 2 months. And he honored the Johnson commits. I wish he hadn’t because he is now getting blasted by fans like you for guys he didn’t even recruit. And he is competing against Saban, Malhzan, Smart, Swinney, FSU, Muschamp, Tennessee all within a 4-5 hour drive from Atlanta. His 2nd class was outstanding considering he had only about a year to build relationships.

And not for nothing, but Coach Johnson hadn’t been competing for Coastal titles at the end either. His stubbornness to adapt caused him to limp into retirement. I loved the complexities of his offense but he got stubborn and lazy on the recruiting front. And GT paid for it his last few years and are still paying for it now. Take away the cupcakes and tell me Johnson’s big wins his last 3 seasons? I’ll save you the time - we beat the Hokies a few times and beat UGA in 2016. That’s about it unless you want to count wins against the ACC trash like UVA and UNC in those days.

I am very aware of when he took the job. I am also aware the bar Collins (not the fans) set for himself when he did. The fact is that for all this talk he isn’t doing significantly better than his predecessors at anything, including recruiting.

 

[1BearJACKET]

We should've hired Brett Bielema like I suggested. I don't care about his record at Arkansas, his Wisconsin teams would steamroll other teams.

 

[1BearJACKET]

I am very aware of when he took the job. I am also aware the bar Collins (not the fans) set for himself when he did. The fact is that for all this talk he isn’t doing significantly better than his predecessors at anything, including recruiting.

One thing he is doing better in is getting more media attention locally, Channel 46 notwithstanding. He is the bright shiny new object, running a different offensive scheme and full of big talk. All of the media attention; however, will taper off unless we win 3 out of our next 4 and start to see more wins next season.

 

[4shotB]

One thing he is doing better in is getting more media attention locally, Channel 46 notwithstanding. He is the bright shiny new object, running a different offensive scheme and full of big talk. All of the media attention; however, will taper off unless we win 3 out of our next 4 and start to see more wins next season.

I think both the coaches and AD understand this fully. I would argue that the attention won't taper off as much as the pendulum will swing completely to the other side and he will receive the same treatment (unfortunately) that CPJ had to put up with. The media is both fickle and cruel. IIWII. Those guys certainly get compensated well for putting up with it.

 

[Oldgoldandwhite]

So many excuses are being made for Collins. I like Collins the person, but really have my doubts about his ability to be a successful Head coach at this level. Hugging and kissing his players at halftime doesn’t actually address the teams short comings. Can anyone imagine CPJ hugging and kissing his players at halftime? You hold players accountable for their mistakes, coach them up, and try the next guy if no improvement.

We had a HS coach once that was constantly being positive and selling the program. He was fired after a 1-19 record. I’m big on not using excuses. I can take the losses, just show me improvement and good coaching.

 

[JackD]

One thing he is doing better in is getting more media attention locally, Channel 46 notwithstanding. He is the bright shiny new object, running a different offensive scheme and full of big talk. All of the media attention; however, will taper off unless we win 3 out of our next 4 and start to see more wins next season.

People keep saying he’ll lose steam with media attention if we don’t win X games this year - I don’t think that’s true at all. Might be true in a year, but nobody outside of this fan base expects us to win right now (as evidenced by getting picked last in a weak conference).

 

[JackD]

I am very aware of when he took the job. I am also aware the bar Collins (not the fans) set for himself when he did. The fact is that for all this talk he isn’t doing significantly better than his predecessors at anything, including recruiting.

You’re out of your mind if don’t see the clear improvements in recruiting. No way his predecessors get Gibbs or Sims.... whether he can win with them obviously remains to be seen.

 

[gtg936g]

You’re out of your mind if don’t see the clear improvements in recruiting. No way his predecessors get Gibbs or Sims.... whether he can win with them obviously remains to be seen.

The talent is better suited to the offense we are running vs the offense we were previously running. No argument from me on that point. Overall we are recruiting about like we always have, some 4* talent and the majority of class is 3* talent.

I got blasted early in the year for saying last year’s class was mediocre talent and that they would need substantial development. I think we are seeing that play out now. Sims and Gibbs are okay but they aren’t Lawrence and Etienne. If Collins can recruit the elite talent that people think he can after he recruits for several cycles those guys should get beat out.

I like the concepts in the offense we are running, but you need some guys that are better than the guys lined up on the opposite side to get a schematic advantage with it. We aren’t there and time will tell if we can get there. If Collins continues to recruit like he has and we develop the talent we have, we can get back to 7-8 wins in two years. If Collins wants to win more than that he is going to need talent that can beat out the guys on the current roster.

 

[smokey_wasp]

The talent is better suited to the offense we are running vs the offense we were previously running. No argument from me on that point. Overall we are recruiting about like we always have, some 4* talent and the majority of class is 3* talent.

I got blasted early in the year for saying last year’s class was mediocre talent and that they would need substantial development. I think we are seeing that play out now. Sims and Gibbs are okay but they aren’t Lawrence and Etienne. If Collins can recruit the elite talent that people think he can after he recruits for several cycles those guys should get beat out.

I like the concepts in the offense we are running, but you need some guys that are better than the guys lined up on the opposite side to get a schematic advantage with it. We aren’t there and time will tell if we can get there. If Collins continues to recruit like he has and we develop the talent we have, we can get back to 7-8 wins in two years. If Collins wants to win more than that he is going to need talent that can beat out the guys on the current roster.

This has been repeated ad nauseum, but there is a world of difference between low 3 star talent with Group of 5 and FCS offers and high 3 star talent with multiple P5 and even factory offers.

 

[gtg936g]

This has been repeated ad nauseum, but there is a world of difference between low 3 star talent with Group of 5 and FCS offers and high 3 star talent with multiple P5 and even factory offers.

Or is it possible that the talent CPJ recruited fit his offense better than the NCAA offense that others ran? Take a look at linemen. Those shorter faster/smaller linemen didn’t get rated as high as the prototypical zone blocker that most people wanted, but that is exactly what we needed/wanted to run our scheme. I started my post with the acknowledgment that the people we recruit now fit the scheme we want to run. It also happens to fit what a lot of other teams want as well and the basis for star evaluation. So, yeah the recruiting star rankings should organically go up by a small margin just because we want what everyone else does and the basis of evaluation/rating is normalized now. I contend that this organic improvement is ineffective in measuring improvements in recruiting and the ability to succeed with this new talent we are obtaining because we are simply competing for the same talent and skill sets as everyone else. It is now critical to out recruit programs that we want to beat where before the basis for evaluation of talent by folks like rivals was less meaningful.

 

[year_of_the_swarm]

You’re out of your mind if don’t see the clear improvements in recruiting. No way his predecessors get Gibbs or Sims.... whether he can win with them obviously remains to be seen.

Didn't need Gibbs or Sims. Had Oliver for 3 years with Graham and Yates behind him. Had Jordan Mason, Jerry Howard, Kirvonte Benson, Dontae Smith, Christian Malloy, and Tony Amerson loaded up at the back positions.

Of course, with the system change you need Gibbs and Sims. But you didn't need it previously. They were loaded at those positions for option football.

Tobias Oliver
Had 152 rushing attempts for 876 yards and 12 touchdowns, while completing 44% of his passes for 167 yards and 2 touchdowns with no interceptions. 168 total offensive plays.

In games where Oliver got significant action:
97 yards and 3 touchdowns vs USF, team scored 38 points
116 yards and 2 touchdowns vs Bowling Green, team scored 63 points
103 yards and 2 touchdowns against Louisville, team scored 66 points
226 yards and 3 touchdowns against Virginia Tech, team scored 49 points
226 yards and 3 touchdowns against North Carolina, team scored 38 points

Either didn't play or didn't receive significant action against:
Clemson (QB had 63 rushing yards)
Duke (QB had 65 rushing yards)
Miami (QB had 92 rushing yards)
Georgia (QB had 39 rushing yards)
Minnesota (QB had 144 rushing yards)
Virginia (QB had 84 rushing yards)
Pitt (QB had 103 rushing yards)
Alcorn State (QB had 149 rushing yards)

Marshall yards in the games were Oliver got significant action:
113 vs USF
42 against Bowling Green
61 against UNC
175 against Louisville

Even if you just give TaQuon Marshall's yards in the games where Oliver didn't play he has 1,615 rushing yards in 2018. RS Freshman. 2,006 rushing yards if you give him TQM's rushing yards in ALL GAMES... and something around 20 rushing touchdowns, if he got all the snaps.

That's what they had.... So you either plug in Monken and keep Nate Woody and keep going down this path, or you switch it up. In which case you definitely you need to change. The kind of talent you need goes up significantly when you join the herd and start trying to do what everyone else is doing, which is perfectly logical. If Team A and Team B functionally are trying to do the exact same thing, Team A needs better players to beat Team B across the board.

All that being said... I still think Gibbs and Sims are going to have great careers, even if the team rebuilds for years. It's just going to take awhile to transform the team into what every other team is doing. They are great foundational pieces to have.

It will be interesting to see if Georgia Tech follows the same path that Nebraska had.... Signs of promise, regression, stagnation, etc.. When they fired Frank Solich and brought in Bill Callahan, their "Jeff Sims" was a guy named Zac Taylor... 6'2'' 210, similar to Jeff Sims. In the second season after switching from the option, they went 9-4 and won the Alamo Bowl. Zac Taylor was 2nd team All big 12. They ranked 14th in total offense. They just couldn't ever player defense though. Historically bad on defense.

They then went through Bill Callahan, Bo Pellini, Mike Riley, and now Scott Frost. Frost (despite being the flavor of the month out of UCF), is 4-8, 5-7, and 0-1 to start his tenure. That is 9-16. A couple of more seasons like that and Nebraska will be working on coach #5 after changing the program.

Expectations are a lot higher at Nebraska though. Or at least they used to be.

 

[zzzboy25]

We had a HS coach once that was constantly being positive and selling the program. He was fired after a 1-19 record. I’m big on not using excuses. I can take the losses, just show me improvement and good coaching.

Thank you....He inherited a team that was bowl eligible. Besides that it's not necessarily the victories, but that will help, it's how we play up and make adjustments as a unit. That does not happen. And all these excuses collins give about he needs the right players ... that's B.S!!!

 

[smokey_wasp]

Didn't need Gibbs or Sims. Had Oliver for 3 years with Graham and Yates behind him. Had Jordan Mason, Jerry Howard, Kirvonte Benson, Dontae Smith, Christian Malloy, and Tony Amerson loaded up at the back positions.

Of course, with the system change you need Gibbs and Sims. But you didn't need it previously. They were loaded at those positions for option football.

Tobias Oliver
Had 152 rushing attempts for 876 yards and 12 touchdowns, while completing 44% of his passes for 167 yards and 2 touchdowns with no interceptions. 168 total offensive plays.

In games where Oliver got significant action:
97 yards and 3 touchdowns vs USF, team scored 38 points
116 yards and 2 touchdowns vs Bowling Green, team scored 63 points
103 yards and 2 touchdowns against Louisville, team scored 66 points
226 yards and 3 touchdowns against Virginia Tech, team scored 49 points
226 yards and 3 touchdowns against North Carolina, team scored 38 points

Either didn't play or didn't receive significant action against:
Clemson (QB had 63 rushing yards)
Duke (QB had 65 rushing yards)
Miami (QB had 92 rushing yards)
Georgia (QB had 39 rushing yards)
Minnesota (QB had 144 rushing yards)
Virginia (QB had 84 rushing yards)
Pitt (QB had 103 rushing yards)
Alcorn State (QB had 149 rushing yards)

Marshall yards in the games were Oliver got significant action:
113 vs USF
42 against Bowling Green
61 against UNC
175 against Louisville

Even if you just give TaQuon Marshall's yards in the games where Oliver didn't play he has 1,615 rushing yards in 2018. RS Freshman. 2,006 rushing yards if you give him TQM's rushing yards in ALL GAMES... and something around 20 rushing touchdowns, if he got all the snaps.

That's what they had.... So you either plug in Monken and keep Nate Woody and keep going down this path, or you switch it up. In which case you definitely you need to change. The kind of talent you need goes up significantly when you join the herd and start trying to do what everyone else is doing, which is perfectly logical. If Team A and Team B functionally are trying to do the exact same thing, Team A needs better players to beat Team B across the board.

All that being said... I still think Gibbs and Sims are going to have great careers, even if the team rebuilds for years. It's just going to take awhile to transform the team into what every other team is doing. They are great foundational pieces to have.

It will be interesting to see if Georgia Tech follows the same path that Nebraska had.... Signs of promise, regression, stagnation, etc.. When they fired Frank Solich and brought in Bill Callahan, their "Jeff Sims" was a guy named Zac Taylor... 6'2'' 210, similar to Jeff Sims. In the second season after switching from the option, they went 9-4 and won the Alamo Bowl. Zac Taylor was 2nd team All big 12. They ranked 14th in total offense. They just couldn't ever player defense though. Historically bad on defense.

They then went through Bill Callahan, Bo Pellini, Mike Riley, and now Scott Frost. Frost (despite being the flavor of the month out of UCF), is 4-8, 5-7, and 0-1 to start his tenure. That is 9-16. A couple of more seasons like that and Nebraska will be working on coach #5 after changing the program.

Expectations are a lot higher at Nebraska though. Or at least they used to be.

So why didn't Oliver take over as the starter in 2018? This may have been a fatal mistake because what soured me and many other fans on the whole offense was the quarterback play that year. And God bless Taquon, seems like a nice guy, but....

I was way more embarrased by what I saw that year than what I have seen with the new offense so far. We have an excuse. In a year 11, there was no excuse for it.

 

[smokey_wasp]

Or is it possible that the talent CPJ recruited fit his offense better than the NCAA offense that others ran? Take a look at linemen. Those shorter faster/smaller linemen didn’t get rated as high as the prototypical zone blocker that most people wanted, but that is exactly what we needed/wanted to run our scheme. I started my post with the acknowledgment that the people we recruit now fit the scheme we want to run. It also happens to fit what a lot of other teams want as well and the basis for star evaluation. So, yeah the recruiting star rankings should organically go up by a small margin just because we want what everyone else does and the basis of evaluation/rating is normalized now. I contend that this organic improvement is ineffective in measuring improvements in recruiting and the ability to succeed with this new talent we are obtaining because we are simply competing for the same talent and skill sets as everyone else. It is now critical to out recruit programs that we want to beat where before the basis for evaluation of talent by folks like rivals was less meaningful.

Here's the thing, though. It's not that we weren't recruiting well enough to run our current scheme. We weren't recruiting well enough to even run CPJ's effectively. The talent from the 2014 team was simply never replaced with anything close. There is no way Johnson leaves if he thinks another 2014 is right around the corner.

 

[gtg936g]

Here's the thing, though. It's not that we weren't recruiting well enough to run our current scheme. We weren't recruiting well enough to even run CPJ's effectively. The talent from the 2014 team was simply never replaced with anything close. There is no way Johnson leaves if he thinks another 2014 is right around the corner.

That was the Bobinski effect. If CPJ had got the funding Collins is getting now things would be different.

This is just my unpopular opinion, but the one place we had 5* talent was under the head coach’s headset. That is going to be the talent that we can’t replace and it is going to take a lot of recruiting to overcome it.

 

[whitegoldsphinx]

This thread makes my head hurt. It's like reading a political thread with only polar opposites posting. At least there is an election tomorrow to taper that. This debate seems to go on forever. In reality, both sides are partly right. CPJ left CGC with an ill-fitting roster and CGC should probably have the defense executing better. The offense IWII. It requires the biggest overhaul, and will improve with time.

 

[smokey_wasp]

This thread makes my head hurt. It's like reading a political thread with only polar opposites posting. At least there is an election tomorrow to taper that. This debate seems to go on forever. In reality, both sides are partly right. CPJ left CGC with an ill-fitting roster and CGC should probably have the defense executing better. The offense IWII. It requires the biggest overhaul, and will improve with time.

You're not wrong and I don't know why I still enjoy participating in it. lol

 

[FlatsLander]

So why didn't Oliver take over as the starter in 2018? This may have been a fatal mistake because what soured me and many other fans on the whole offense was the quarterback play that year. And God bless Taquon, seems like a nice guy, but....

I was way more embarrased by what I saw that year than what I have seen with the new offense so far. We have an excuse. In a year 11, there was no excuse for it.

I think CPJ valued the Marshall's age and experience and didn't see that Marshall's issues were bad enough to pull him. I do think Oliver was better all around though.

 

[gtg936g]

Marshall was just more consistent with the reads and had better ball security.

 

[Deleted member 2897]

So why didn't Oliver take over as the starter in 2018? This may have been a fatal mistake because what soured me and many other fans on the whole offense was the quarterback play that year. And God bless Taquon, seems like a nice guy, but....

I was way more embarrased by what I saw that year than what I have seen with the new offense so far. We have an excuse. In a year 11, there was no excuse for it.

Well, backing up, we had Justin Thomas 2014-2016.
In the 2014 class, we took Matthew Jordan.
In the 2015 class, we took Jaylen Ratliffe as our sole QB that class. He nearly died from a terrible accident before arriving on campus and never played.
In the 2016 class, we took Jay Jones (ATH).

So we only took 3 QB over 3 years. 1 was really an athlete more than a QB, and Jaylen was hurt and out.

So going into the 2017 season, we had Matthew Jordan, Jay Jones, and a Freshman from the 2017 class Lucas Johnson. They moved TaQuon Marshall back to QB to help with depth.

If you look at the last couple years of CPJs tenure, you can see why we struggled the way we did - we didn't recruit well at the QB position, which is one of the most dominant positions in terms of determining how your offense will flow. It made us extremely 1 dimensional, because although Matthew Jordan, Lucas Johnson, and TaQuon Marshall could all run the offense, we lost 2 of them to injuries anyway, but they couldn't throw well enough to keep defenses honest.