A GT Football Fan expectation

[MikeJackets1967]

B**ch, b**ch, b**ch. Man that all you do about PJ. Newsflash, we get that you despise PJ and his O. Guess what? IT AIN"T GOING TO CHANGE DESPITE YOUR B**CHING. Please find something else to post about or just quit posting. You come across as a watb and it's gotten way too old. SMFH

 

[lv20gt]

B**ch, b**ch, b**ch. Man that all you do about PJ. Newsflash, we get that you despise PJ and his O. Guess what? IT AIN"T GOING TO CHANGE DESPITE YOUR B**CHING. Please find something else to post about or just quit posting. You come across as a watb and it's gotten way too old. SMFH

Sorry that I hate the bs narrative that this offense can do no wrong while blaming one side of the ball and conveniently making excuses why the head coach isn't to be blamed for it 10 years in. But no, I'm not just going to sit by and let the echo chamber continue.

 

[OldJacketFan]

Sorry that I hate the bs narrative that this offense can do no wrong while blaming one side of the ball and conveniently making excuses why the head coach isn't to be blamed for it 10 years in. But no, I'm not just going to sit by and let the echo chamber continue.

Your narrative fails in multiple ways none more so that saying that anyone believes this offense can do no wrong. It fails from the get go as does the rest of your arguments. But keep tooting your horn, it merely makes you look more and more foolish

 

[RonJohn]

I hope I'm wrong, but Johnson needs a minimum of eight wins and a strong foundation for 2019 to be asked back.

TStan basically said at or near the end of the season last year that CPJ has not had the support that he has needed to be competitive in the ACC. Facilities changes are starting this year with many more in the fund raising plan(long term goals, not short term) The recruiting staff was increased this year but won't have an effect until the 2019 or later recruiting class.(long term effect, not short term) If the AD says that the head coach has not received the support he needs to be successful, and all of the things being implemented are long term items instead of short term items, I don't see the head coach being fired for a mediocre season. If the team isn't competitive and goes 1-11/2-10, or if he loses control of the team maybe. However, I don't see those things happening.

 

[tech_wreck47]

3 years? The last 3 years the offense has been disappointing. 2015 it was bad. 2016 it was mediocre and considering we had a 3 year starter at QB that shouldn't have been the case and last year was mediocre. 2014 had an amazing offense, for the second half. Thank god an injury forced Johnson's hand at BBack. Prior to that we had several years of wallowing in the mire of Lee and Washington led teams.



Against Miami we scored 17 points on offense. That's a problem. But of course it's always something else that is the issue. This time it's the weather. Against Clemosn and UGA our offense was pathetic and the supporters of Johnson always tout how his offense helps us overcome those talent differentials. Also, that's an argument nobody ever brings up, nor would anyone accept for the other side of the ball. "Nobody would look at the UGA game and say that, it's fine our defense gave up 38. They have all that NFL talent". Against UVA our team scored 36. 7 of those came directly from the defense. S0 that is 29 points for the offense. Of course 7 more points came off a turnover allowing us to go 14 yards for a score when our offense was bogged down after 3 straight punts. The offense also had a safety so that's them score 2 for the other team. They also gave UVA the ball on our side of the field setting up a FG. They also gave UVA the ball on the GT 30 setting up another short field for a TD. I have no idea how you can look at that game and call it fine. But it's always been that way. Going back to 2012 we scored 17 points against VT, including 7 off a 24 yard drive after turnover, and throw an INT in OT to give the game away. What was the story fans were pushing out? Defense was to blame as it always is and always will be under Johnson.



Oh please. Johnson whines that he didn't get his first pick and he gets a free pass for that side of the ball. But yeah, now he has the resources. Of course never mind that Nate Woody actually is making less than Ted Roof was last year and pretty much exactly what Roof made his first year as DC. And here I though Teflon Paul was gone when we fired Hewitt.

We will just have to agree to disagree!

 

[RamblinWreck92]

Offense has often been an issue. People are just blind and because Johnson is synonymous with his offense he gets treated like an OC instead of a HC. So scapegoating the defense allows his fans to act like Johnson isn't a problem.

Last year we lost to Miami when they scored 25 to our 24. We scored only 24 points despite Miami gift wrapping us a TD on the onside kick. We scored a total of 3 points on offense in the second half. But what is the narrative of that game? Defense sucks and bubble screen memes. Why? because punt, punt, punt, punt by our offense to end the game isn't a problem.

Scoring 10 against Clemson isn't a problem. Scoring 7 against UGA isn't a problem. Hellthe UVA game if you go beyond just looking at the final score shows the offense was a problem as well.

In 2016. We scored 7 against Clemosn. Not a problem. Scored 21 against miami and gift wrapped them 2 TDs. Not a problem, 20 points against UNC. Not a problem.

In 2015. Not a problem.

To some the offense isn't a problem tautologically. The problem is always defense, and it's never Johnson's defense. It's Roof's defense. Or it's Groh's defense. Or it's Wommack's defense. But never Johnson's defense. Next year it'll be Woody's defense. And when Woody's defense performs to the same level that Johnson's defenses do, it'll be written off with some excuse like getting used to the system or the cupboard being bare, and the wheel will keep on turning.

^Spot on. CPJ's offense doesn't exist in a vacuum from the defense and you point out good examples of this above. Also, I've read the argument that CPJ's scheme brings something 'different' to the table that makes us more competitive than if we ran a different form of offense, yet most of the time vs the Clemsons on our schedule, it repeatedly fails to score more than 10-13 pts. The argument that "Well, it's Clemson/Miami/VPI/mutts D, which is awesome" ignores the successes other different schemes have vs those teams than CPJ's option-based scheme.

The effect of all those 3-and-outs takes its toll on a defense that isn't a top-25 unit to begin with. Take 2017 Duke: While it's embarrassing how poorly the D played, our offensive inability to score a single point for the entire 2nd half vs Puke doesn't help the D.

When's the last time we've had an actual CPJ Death March?

 

[RamblinWreck92]

When you look at stats as a whole compared to other teams then offense has never been the problem at GT when CPJ has been here. Even the worst year of 2015 GT was Still middle of the ACC in offense.

How much of that is inflated from playing early-season cupcakes? The stats as a whole don't do us much good vs the Clemsons and mutts on the schedule.

 

[RamblinWreck92]

Sorry that I hate the bs narrative that this offense can do no wrong while blaming one side of the ball and conveniently making excuses why the head coach isn't to be blamed for it 10 years in. But no, I'm not just going to sit by and let the echo chamber continue.

you are tilting against some serious windmills! I think it's obvious from the past few years that any advantage this scheme gave us in 2008-09 is long gone. Back then, the scheme could still score 20+ on Clemson but no longer. Hell, even in mighty 2014 (when we still couldn't beat Puke), it took 2 pick-6s to beat QB-less Clemson. I know, I know - "NFL talent OMG!!" but those who tout CPJ as an offensive genius claim he gives us the best chance to occasionally hang with the big boys when it's clear that that's no longer the case.

Eventually, they'll shrug their shoulders and tell you "It Is What It Is", an attitude of resignation that didn't exist on the Flats prior to 2008.

 

[tech_wreck47]

^Spot on. CPJ's offense doesn't exist in a vacuum from the defense and you point out good examples of this above. Also, I've read the argument that CPJ's scheme brings something 'different' to the table that makes us more competitive than if we ran a different form of offense, yet most of the time vs the Clemsons on our schedule, it repeatedly fails to score more than 10-13 pts. The argument that "Well, it's Clemson/Miami/VPI/mutts D, which is awesome" ignores the successes other different schemes have vs those teams than CPJ's option-based scheme.

The effect of all those 3-and-outs takes its toll on a defense that isn't a top-25 unit to begin with. Take 2017 Duke: While it's embarrassing how poorly the D played, our offensive inability to score a single point for the entire 2nd half vs Puke doesn't help the D.

When's the last time we've had an actual CPJ Death March?

Yes, GT struggles with the teams you mentioned, however most non factories struggle with those teams, so it’s not like we are the minority. Also, even with those struggles we have been top 2 or 3 in Offense efficiency and 5 other top 25’s. That’s 7 of 10 years, can you show me any team in the country that recruits on the level of GT and does that? Actually can you show me any team that recruits in let’s say 30-60 that does that? I get that we all want GT to be better and some might not like CPJ but we can’t just ignore FACTS. Just go look at all the non factories and see what they have done over the past decade, you might just have a renewed appreciation for CPJ and what he’s done at GT. Do you think this would even be a conversation about the offense if we averaged 8 or 9 wins a year? Because I’d dare to say with a D around the 30’s that’s what we would do. IMO it’s more about W’s and L’s.

 

[Skeptic]

^Spot on. CPJ's offense doesn't exist in a vacuum from the defense and you point out good examples of this above. Also, I've read the argument that CPJ's scheme brings something 'different' to the table that makes us more competitive than if we ran a different form of offense, yet most of the time vs the Clemsons on our schedule, it repeatedly fails to score more than 10-13 pts. The argument that "Well, it's Clemson/Miami/VPI/mutts D, which is awesome" ignores the successes other different schemes have vs those teams than CPJ's option-based scheme.

The effect of all those 3-and-outs takes its toll on a defense that isn't a top-25 unit to begin with. Take 2017 Duke: While it's embarrassing how poorly the D played, our offensive inability to score a single point for the entire 2nd half vs Puke doesn't help the D.

When's the last time we've had an actual CPJ Death March?

You kind of wreck a decent argument with hyperbole, that argument being the "death march". Not many of those of late, but then not much of an option drum major of late, which makes the marching difficult. (Before anybody goes off I give you Marshall's ability with the ball; an option runs off the QB's ability without the ball.) But about this offense thing. First, Swinney and Clemson have diligently, single-mindedly, don't spare the horses, built a national power in the same time Johnson has been at Tech. It is not a knock on Johnson that he has not, since even a Tech engineer cannot build a Jaguar from a Model A parts kit. GT is what it is, apparently what it wants to be; Clemson wants something else and is willing to pay for it. As a longtime sidewalk fan, I am good with Tech's position, but if alums are not, then make noise about what level of support you demand. As long as it is honest I'll be good with that, too. So, yep, in the last two years while Clemson was in the NC twice and Georgia once, Tech scored 10 and 7 points against Clemson and 7 and -- what's this, 28? -- against Georgia. In 10 years of Johnson's offense against Clemson, it scored, counting backward, 10, 7, 24, 28, 31, 31, 31, 13, 30 and 21 points. That somewhat exceeds your "repeatedly" fails to score more than 13 points. That using "absolute" comparison will get you every time. (I am aware that of the 28 scored in 2014, 14 were on two horrendous decisions by Clemson QB resulting in two glorious pick returns; so sue me. Sue us.)

So yes, as Clemson has built its world class defense, rivaling Alabama's (it's most recent playoff loss to Alabama included two Alabama TDs off Clemson's mistakes, too) Georgia Tech has found it tough to score, a difficulty encountered by most on Clemson's schedule. Throw out the last two years and we've averaged about four TD's a game (26 points) on them. That to this inexpert eye is pretty good offense against a P5 opponent. But you know what? Get those 35 and 56 point games and it spoils us. It ain't that easy.

Now, you done made me go and do research which I hate and my head hurts.

 

[lv20gt]

I get that we all want GT to be better and some might not like CPJ but we can’t just ignore FACTS. Just go look at all the non factories and see what they have done over the past decade, you might just have a renewed appreciation for CPJ and what he’s done at GT. .

In the last 6 years, Paul Johnson is 25-23 in conference.
In Gailey's 6 years here, Chan Gailey was 28-20 in conference.

Ignore those facts. In fact, Johnson has a worse conference winning % than Gailey overall. Hiring Johnson was a great move in 2008. Unfortunately the ACC adapted, evolved, and improved. Johnson refuses to do so. When Johnson was hired we heard opposing fans and pundits make claims about how the offense would hurt the defense, and we waved it off. But 10 years in and it looks like they were spot on. Except now we have desperate fans clinging to any scrap of hope that it isn't true. We have fans blaming weather, resources, and acting like we can't compete with factories on offense despite that being a huge argument for . But surely, now that we have the resources, our 4th DC is the answer. Of course went and opened up the checkbook, and attracted a high profile DC that has experience against ACC competition. But, that didn't happen. We got Woody at the same price we got Roof, and he has no experience in either the ACC or even the P5.

We have a program completely defined by our offense yet we have an offense that can't win shootouts. We are 1-13 in the last 3 years in games where the other team scores more than 28 and that one game the opposing team only scored over 28 because of turnovers by our offense. Even going back further, the past 6 years we are 4-25 in such games. To put that in perspective in 2009 alone we were 4-2 in such games. In the same time period, 6 years, we've lost 10 games in which the opposing team has scored less than 28. So to recap, we have a a program entirely built around our offensive system, but that system can no longer be relied on to win shootouts, and even when it's not a shootout doesn't guarantee a victory anyways. So if we are going to have an offense that absolutely needs a defense who can hold teams to under 28 every game, then why are we running an offense that has such a negative effect on the defense? Johnson should have a raging fire under his seat. Instead he has an AD making excuses for him and a fanbase eating that up. I swear he is going to have to gregory this program before some of y'all open your eyes.

 

[Longestday]

The big issue last year was the 38% passing efficiency. You get that to 50% and the year is totally different. I say 2018 will go the way of completions (and as always turnovers).

The defense has had strategic issues and I am glad for the change.I want to see the defense win games (like Clemson 2014, but with the starting QB).

I do hold CPJ accountable for the lack of a kicker in 2017.

2015 was on injuries, no doubt about it.

The rain was a large handicap on 2017 (the option is not rain friendly) Don’t discount the loss of our starting BB in 2017 (not that our B.B. was not good, but he was rode very hard) And Mark R was a genius in putting new sod in before our game.

2017 was a combination of BB loss, completions, special teams, and rain.

 

[JacketFromUGA]

*Yawn* your arguments are tired and they make me tired.

Not to mention the need to make everythread into a broken record whine fest about CPJ even when it’s only tangentially (at best) related to the topic.

 

[Coloradojacket]

The big issue last year was the 38% passing efficiency. You get that to 50% and the year is totally different. I say 2018 will go the way of completions (and as always turnovers).

The defense has had strategic issues and I am glad for the change.I want to see the defense win games (like Clemson 2014, but with the starting QB).

I do hold CPJ accountable for the lack of a kicker in 2017.

2015 was on injuries, no doubt about it.

The rain was a large handicap on 2017 (the option is not rain friendly) Don’t discount the loss of our starting BB in 2017 (not that our B.B. was not good, but he was rode very hard) And Mark R was a genius in putting new sod in before our game.

2017 was a combination of BB loss, completions, special teams, and rain.

And please go back and look at the Miami game from last year. Benson did not play the second half and that is what hurt us. He was running through them in the first half. When Benson was out we suffered.

 

[lv20gt]

Not to mention the need to make everythread into a broken record whine fest about CPJ even when it’s only tangentially (at best) related to the topic.

Explain to me how the head coach isn't directly related to fan expectations. Also, explain to me how this is only tangentially related when the OP asks "And with a CPJ offense, what does that mean."

 

[Coloradojacket]

So as always to bring the point of the thread back around, Curry, Ross, O'Leary, Gailey, CPJ, it makes no matter who the coach has been at Tech. We have no sustained record of pushing out 9-10 win seasons during any of these coaches. We hit peaks and then drop into valleys, why? Because we are a school that requires you to go to school.

 

[RamblinWreck92]

Yes, GT struggles with the teams you mentioned, however most non factories struggle with those teams, so it’s not like we are the minority. Also, even with those struggles we have been top 2 or 3 in Offense efficiency and 5 other top 25’s. That’s 7 of 10 years, can you show me any team in the country that recruits on the level of GT and does that? Actually can you show me any team that recruits in let’s say 30-60 that does that? I get that we all want GT to be better and some might not like CPJ but we can’t just ignore FACTS. Just go look at all the non factories and see what they have done over the past decade, you might just have a renewed appreciation for CPJ and what he’s done at GT. Do you think this would even be a conversation about the offense if we averaged 8 or 9 wins a year? Because I’d dare to say with a D around the 30’s that’s what we would do. IMO it’s more about W’s and L’s.

Meh, so much of that stat gets inflated from our 63-0 Alcorn ST blowouts where we put up 500+ rushing yards. If you look at the numbers we put up against the "good teams on the schedule", they're seldom very different from what other offenses are putting up. In the case of Clemson, both Syracuse and Weak Forest put up more pts than we did last year so it's clear that this scheme no longer gives us the competitive advantage its supporters think it does.

I will say this though - if we just threw 10 more passes/game, I'd be more accepting of it. If you look at stats, you'll also see that we've had 2 years in the last 10 where we've had a WR avg at least 3 catches/game for the season. Thomas in 2009 and Smelter in 2014.

2009 and 2014.

I don't believe that's coincidence, do you? Because we have an A-Back Flavor of the Month getting 1000 rushing yds+ (or the QB) every year. This offense absolutely must pass the ball better to win more than 6 games and the stats and records bear that out.

 

[RamblinWreck92]

You kind of wreck a decent argument with hyperbole, that argument being the "death march". Not many of those of late, but then not much of an option drum major of late, which makes the marching difficult. (Before anybody goes off I give you Marshall's ability with the ball; an option runs off the QB's ability without the ball.) But about this offense thing. First, Swinney and Clemson have diligently, single-mindedly, don't spare the horses, built a national power in the same time Johnson has been at Tech. It is not a knock on Johnson that he has not, since even a Tech engineer cannot build a Jaguar from a Model A parts kit. GT is what it is, apparently what it wants to be; Clemson wants something else and is willing to pay for it. As a longtime sidewalk fan, I am good with Tech's position, but if alums are not, then make noise about what level of support you demand. As long as it is honest I'll be good with that, too. So, yep, in the last two years while Clemson was in the NC twice and Georgia once, Tech scored 10 and 7 points against Clemson and 7 and -- what's this, 28? -- against Georgia. In 10 years of Johnson's offense against Clemson, it scored, counting backward, 10, 7, 24, 28, 31, 31, 31, 13, 30 and 21 points. That somewhat exceeds your "repeatedly" fails to score more than 13 points. That using "absolute" comparison will get you every time. (I am aware that of the 28 scored in 2014, 14 were on two horrendous decisions by Clemson QB resulting in two glorious pick returns; so sue me. Sue us.)

So yes, as Clemson has built its world class defense, rivaling Alabama's (it's most recent playoff loss to Alabama included two Alabama TDs off Clemson's mistakes, too) Georgia Tech has found it tough to score, a difficulty encountered by most on Clemson's schedule. Throw out the last two years and we've averaged about four TD's a game (26 points) on them. That to this inexpert eye is pretty good offense against a P5 opponent. But you know what? Get those 35 and 56 point games and it spoils us. It ain't that easy.

Now, you done made me go and do research which I hate and my head hurts.

Like I said, we need to throw it more and better to run better. 2009 and 2014 are the only 2 seasons in the CPJ Era where we've had a WR avg 3 catches/game.

The last 3 years have left me jaded on this scheme and its trend. Hopefully 2018 will point the arrow in the right direction though that will only happen if Taquon throws it better, and more often. See 2009 and 2014. If we run the same QB-Option-Keeper crap from 2017, it's Hello, 5-wins.

 

[RamblinWreck92]

In the last 6 years, Paul Johnson is 25-23 in conference.
In Gailey's 6 years here, Chan Gailey was 28-20 in conference.

Ignore those facts. In fact, Johnson has a worse conference winning % than Gailey overall. Hiring Johnson was a great move in 2008. Unfortunately the ACC adapted, evolved, and improved. Johnson refuses to do so. When Johnson was hired we heard opposing fans and pundits make claims about how the offense would hurt the defense, and we waved it off. But 10 years in and it looks like they were spot on. Except now we have desperate fans clinging to any scrap of hope that it isn't true. We have fans blaming weather, resources, and acting like we can't compete with factories on offense despite that being a huge argument for . But surely, now that we have the resources, our 4th DC is the answer. Of course went and opened up the checkbook, and attracted a high profile DC that has experience against ACC competition. But, that didn't happen. We got Woody at the same price we got Roof, and he has no experience in either the ACC or even the P5.

We have a program completely defined by our offense yet we have an offense that can't win shootouts. We are 1-13 in the last 3 years in games where the other team scores more than 28 and that one game the opposing team only scored over 28 because of turnovers by our offense. Even going back further, the past 6 years we are 4-25 in such games. To put that in perspective in 2009 alone we were 4-2 in such games. In the same time period, 6 years, we've lost 10 games in which the opposing team has scored less than 28. So to recap, we have a a program entirely built around our offensive system, but that system can no longer be relied on to win shootouts, and even when it's not a shootout doesn't guarantee a victory anyways. So if we are going to have an offense that absolutely needs a defense who can hold teams to under 28 every game, then why are we running an offense that has such a negative effect on the defense? Johnson should have a raging fire under his seat. Instead he has an AD making excuses for him and a fanbase eating that up. I swear he is going to have to gregory this program before some of y'all open your eyes.

Even then, the eyes won't open because "OMG 2014!", which ignores the horrible losses to Puke and UNC and the should've-been loss to GA Southern. Plus the very nice wins against the mutts but ignoring the dismal collapse in 2013 and loss to the worst mutt team ever in 2015.

And agreed re:Excuses. The lamest is the recent "OMG bad weather!!!" one. Which is bizarre because for every other rush-heavy team, playing in the rain is seen as an advantage! Now for us, it's suddenly this huge hindrance. It's laughably nonsensical the lengths some folks go to make excuses for us.

Whatever. I agree with the gist of your post and the facts and stats bear it out: The offense that was supposed to be a Great Equalizer for us is clearly no longer doing so. As he's not going anywhere anytime soon, I'd just like to see CPJ do something - ANYTHING - different. For example, add a shotgun formation in for the Graham kid playing QB (since that's what he ran in HS where he put up huge #s). Throw 10 more passes/game. Etc. Evolve to keep up with the UVA and Duke defenses that have noticeably started shutting us down (See Second half, Puke 2017). When we're down 21+ pts, stop running QB Option Keeper plays (See 2nd half, mutts 2017). Etc.

 

[redmule]

They need to begin sending out the media guides again so that people can look at past scores quickly before they post drivel.

Gailey's low scores
2002 - 7 against uga
2003 - 3 against Clemson
2003 - 7 against Maryland
2004 - 3 against Miami
2005 - 7 against VT
2005 - 7 against uga
2006 - 7 against Clem
2006 - 7 against UNC
2006 - 6 against WF
2007 - 3 against Clemson

By all means, let's go back to that offense. Luckily we had Calvin and Choice in '05 and '06 to help put up such gaudy numbers. We scored 7 or less in roughly a quarter of the games those two years.

O'Leary's numbers looked similar until Ralph arrived, and then dropped again when he left. I would put Ralph in a league all by himself, even ahead of CPJ.