11/28 - MBB vs. Miss St.

[forensicbuzz]

Are foul counts supposed to be equitable? I think it makes sense that we foul more often than many of our ACC opponents, and occasionally it is by a significant (and accurate) margin. Sometimes we do get screwed by the refs, but volume foul counts shouldn’t be how we contextualize when that happens. Because…

I’m sure you’d agree that GT basketball has been, for well over a decade now, inferior athletically (in both physicality and speed/quickness) to nearly every ACC team we play. If you agree with that, why would you expect foul counts to be equitable and/or use that as your metric to define equitability? Wouldn’t it actually be unlikely for team fouls to be equitable considering the game is played with 400 combined player minutes across two teams with significant differences in athleticism (and coaching)?

Again, that's not the point. We're talking about why people ***** and complain about the refs and when they don't. All you say is true, but that isn't relevant to the whole point of the discussion of why people weren't pissing and moaning about the officiating in the MSU game because we won. I posited it was because the foul count was pretty even throughout the game and the refs didn't affect the game much by over/under officiating. I think people tend to not get upset at the officiating when the officiating isn't really a part of the game flow.

 

[GaTech4ever]

Again, that's not the point. We're talking about why people ***** and complain about the refs and when they don't. All you say is true, but that isn't relevant to the whole point of the discussion of why people weren't pissing and moaning about the officiating in the MSU game because we won. I posited it was because the foul count was pretty even throughout the game and the refs didn't affect the game much by over/under officiating. I think people tend to not get upset at the officiating when the officiating isn't really a part of the game flow.

Understood. I personally thought the officiating was below average across the board affecting both teams, but not egregious. My original post that started this conversation was more about the 50/50 balls than anything else. I do wonder though, how often posters here watch our games and actively acknowledge it to themselves when we do get a favorable whistle.

 

[lv20gt]

To me, the bothersome thing about the refs is once teams get a reputation one way or the other, it clearly affects how the refs call games because they will either call contact they expect to happen or not call contact that they were expecting to not happen. That then furthers the reputation of the teams creating a cycle. It is actually more annoying to me when I watch games that don't involve us and see contact that is let go for some teams that is very often called on us or in other games.

 

[LargeFO]

Miss St. style definitely seemed overwhelmingly to be grab and chuck as much as possible and see how far they can take it. Fortunately that set of refs had a fairly quick whistle.

 

[Tom]

As a D1 ref, myself, we’ll certainly make bad calls in a game but the goal is to be consistent and always get the game critical decisions right. If we make a call that isn’t consistent then we’ll have to communicate to the player(s) or coaches and just know it doesn’t help making the same mistake twice even if it’s for the other team. With that said, you ref to how the players and coaches want the game to be played, within reason. Not the fans.

The fans are so bias that they’ll only remember and scrutinize the calls against them unless there was an egregious or game critical decision against the other team. And that tends to build up frustrations by the end of the game. So, now, when I watch games and am rooting for a team, I don’t look for if every call is perfect but if the players and coaches are fine with the calls. You’ll know when they’re not happy with the refs, not just one call. TV angles are just unfair to the refs.

 

[GaTech4ever]

As a D1 ref, myself, we’ll certainly make bad calls in a game but the goal is to be consistent and always get the game critical decisions right. If we make a call that isn’t consistent then we’ll have to communicate to the player(s) or coaches and just know it doesn’t help making the same mistake twice even if it’s for the other team. With that said, you ref to how the players and coaches want the game to be played, within reason. Not the fans.

The fans are so bias that they’ll only remember and scrutinize the calls against them unless there was an egregious or game critical decision against the other team. And that tends to build up frustrations by the end of the game. So, now, when I watch games and am rooting for a team, I don’t look for if every call is perfect but if the players and coaches are fine with the calls. You’ll know when they’re not happy with the refs, not just one call. TV angles are just unfair to the refs.

I really appreciate your perspective here. I do the same thing (bolded part) when I watch my team’s games. There’s plenty of times where I think we were on the wrong end of a call, but then I look at our bench and our coach is actually yelling at our own player instead of the ref.

 

[Root4GT]

Again, that's not the point. We're talking about why people ***** and complain about the refs and when they don't. All you say is true, but that isn't relevant to the whole point of the discussion of why people weren't pissing and moaning about the officiating in the MSU game because we won. I posited it was because the foul count was pretty even throughout the game and the refs didn't affect the game much by over/under officiating. I think people tend to not get upset at the officiating when the officiating isn't really a part of the game flow.

Most people are clueless on how officials actually do their job. Lots don’t understand the rules very well either. As such they see things they believe are bad or latte calls that are correct in how the officials actually operate.

Example a guy going in for a layup and there is some contact. Ball goes in and no whistle. Most people don’t care. Ball does not go in and a late whistle because the ref judged the contacted the plays out one thus was a foul. People get mad who root fit the team the foul was called on.

Refs made the correct call in both cases. My SIL refs Division 2 games and has explained lots of ways refs call games that shed light on BB officiating. They all are constantly graded as well.

 

[forensicbuzz]

Understood. I personally thought the officiating was below average across the board affecting both teams, but not egregious. My original post that started this conversation was more about the 50/50 balls than anything else. I do wonder though, how often posters here watch our games and actively acknowledge it to themselves when we do get a favorable whistle.

Agreed. I understood the original post. I'm not sure where average is anymore, so to say they were below average is hard for me to judge. I don't think Jamie Lucky is a good ref, as he often calls things opposite to the way I see it (including after replay). Everyone knows that Teddy Valentine loves to insert himself into the drama. Both are 1MM times better than I would be out there.

 

[forensicbuzz]

As a D1 ref, myself, we’ll certainly make bad calls in a game but the goal is to be consistent and always get the game critical decisions right. If we make a call that isn’t consistent then we’ll have to communicate to the player(s) or coaches and just know it doesn’t help making the same mistake twice even if it’s for the other team. With that said, you ref to how the players and coaches want the game to be played, within reason. Not the fans.

The fans are so bias that they’ll only remember and scrutinize the calls against them unless there was an egregious or game critical decision against the other team. And that tends to build up frustrations by the end of the game. So, now, when I watch games and am rooting for a team, I don’t look for if every call is perfect but if the players and coaches are fine with the calls. You’ll know when they’re not happy with the refs, not just one call. TV angles are just unfair to the refs.

Agreed 100%

 

[TampaBuzz]

Agreed. I understood the original post. I'm not sure where average is anymore, so to say they were below average is hard for me to judge. I don't think Jamie Lucky is a good ref, as he often calls things opposite to the way I see it (including after replay). Everyone knows that Teddy Valentine loves to insert himself into the drama. Both are 1MM times better than I would be out there.

I don't complain much about the referees these days cuz clearly I don't know the rules anymore. I saw our guy Kelly tuck the ball under his arm (top of the key) and take two huge running steps toward the basket and MSU gets called for a shooting foul. I was certain that the whistle was going to be because he was gonna get called for traveling, but no. I saw similar calls not being made regularly for both teams. Isn't traveling still defined as once you pickup your dribble you can't move your pivot foot? Or does that get thrown out if you the player is considered to be driving to the basket?

 

[forensicbuzz]

Most people are clueless on how officials actually do their job. Lots don’t understand the rules very well either. As such they see things they believe are bad or latte calls that are correct in how the officials actually operate.

Example a guy going in for a layup and there is some contact. Ball goes in and no whistle. Most people don’t care. Ball does not go in and a late whistle because the ref judged the contacted the plays out one thus was a foul. People get mad who root fit the team the foul was called on.

Refs made the correct call in both cases. My SIL refs Division 2 games and has explained lots of ways refs call games that shed light on BB officiating. They all are constantly graded as well.

As I'm always told by refs and every level I've been exposed to, "a foul is a foul, a violation is a violation." They call them as they see them. I just believe some are in better positions than others. For my son's training facility, the owner brings in college refs to officiate the in-house league and these guys are exceptionally better than HS, who are exceptionally better than AAU/MS. It's a thankless job. My thing is, if they're hustling to get into position, I'm not going to grumble much.

 

[LargeFO]

My dad refereed a good bit for years. His #1 golden rule above all else was "protect the shooter".

 

[forensicbuzz]

I don't complain much about the referees these days cuz clearly I don't know the rules anymore. I saw our guy Kelly tuck the ball under his arm (top of the key) and take two huge running steps toward the basket and MSU gets called for a shooting foul. I was certain that the whistle was going to be because he was gonna get called for traveling, but no. I saw similar calls not being made regularly for both teams. Isn't traveling still defined as once you pickup your dribble you can't move your pivot foot? Or does that get thrown out if you the player is considered to be driving to the basket?

You should look up the traveling descriptions and what it really means. I've learned that if your hand is on top of the ball, you can take 3-4 steps in any direction without it being traveling. Check out some of the James Harden videos. Pros are different than College or HS.

James Harden explained

 

[gte447f]

You should look up the traveling descriptions and what it really means. I've learned that if your hand is on top of the ball, you can take 3-4 steps in any direction without it being traveling. Check out some of the James Harden videos. Pros are different than College or HS.

James Harden explained

Not sure about 3-4 steps. In general you can lift your pivot foot off the floor, but then it cannot touch the floor again before you release the ball for a pass or a shot. Which foot counts as your pivot foot varies, depending on whether you are moving or not and whether both feet, one foot, or no feet are touching the floor when you catch or pick up the basketball off the dribble. Add in what constitutes picking up the basketball off the dribble, and at game speed it can be difficult to determine if a player has traveled. NCAA refs are supposed to give the benefit of the doubt to the player unless they are positive that the player’s pivot foot has come off the floor and touched again before the ball has been released.

 

[forensicbuzz]

Not sure about 3-4 steps. In general you can lift your pivot foot off the floor, but then it cannot touch the floor again before you release the ball for a pass or a shot. Which foot counts as your pivot foot varies, depending on whether you are moving or not and whether both feet, one foot, or no feet are touching the floor when you catch or pick up the basketball off the dribble. Add in what constitutes picking up the basketball off the dribble, and at game speed it can be difficult to determine if a player has traveled. NCAA refs are supposed to give the benefit of the doubt to the player unless they are positive that the player’s pivot foot has come off the floor and touched again before the ball has been released.

as long as your hand is on top of the ball, no traveling. Now, if you palm the ball, that's a carry. But, if the ball is spinning under your hand, you can take as many steps as you want and it's not a travel. Now, that's not to say you won't get called for it by a ref who just doesn't know the rules well enough.

 

[TampaBuzz]

Not sure about 3-4 steps. In general you can lift your pivot foot off the floor, but then it cannot touch the floor again before you release the ball for a pass or a shot. Which foot counts as your pivot foot varies, depending on whether you are moving or not and whether both feet, one foot, or no feet are touching the floor when you catch or pick up the basketball off the dribble. Add in what constitutes picking up the basketball off the dribble, and at game speed it can be difficult to determine if a player has traveled. NCAA refs are supposed to give the benefit of the doubt to the player unless they are positive that the player’s pivot foot has come off the floor and touched again before the ball has been released.

Ok....that seems to be the difference. I grew up that you could not pick up your pivot foot unless you were shooting or passing. What you are saying is that a player can pick up his dribble (Kelly likes to hold it against his chest) in mid stride (both feet off the ground), land on one foot (say the left which becomes the pivot), take another full stride onto his right foot and launch toward the rim and have it be legal as long as the left foot does not touch the ground again. That makes no sense to me because the player has changed the pivot foot from left to right. I guess the logic is to allow this because it makes the game more exciting?

 

[GaTech4ever]

In general you can lift your pivot foot off the floor, but then it cannot touch the floor again before you release the ball for a pass or a shot.

THIS. A lot of people don’t understand that at most basketball levels, you CAN lift your pivot foot. You just can’t put it back down while you still have the ball. It’s been this way for decades, but would need @Tom to confirm. It’s officially called a step-through. Check out @stepthroughjoe on instagram for 100s of legal clips of this move at essentially all levels.

 

[GaTech4ever]

Ok....that seems to be the difference. I grew up that you could not pick up your pivot foot unless you were shooting or passing. What you are saying is that a player can pick up his dribble (Kelly likes to hold it against his chest) in mid stride (both feet off the ground), land on one foot (say the left which becomes the pivot), take another full stride onto his right foot and launch toward the rim and have it be legal as long as the left foot does not touch the ground again. That makes no sense to me because the player has changed the pivot foot from left to right. I guess the logic is to allow this because it makes the game more exciting?

Edit: I don’t think this is actually what you were referring to, but will keep it here anyway since it’s on topic

Here’s a legal step through in high school from 1994:

 

[GaTech4ever]

as long as your hand is on top of the ball, no traveling. Now, if you palm the ball, that's a carry. But, if the ball is spinning under your hand, you can take as many steps as you want and it's not a travel. Now, that's not to say you won't get called for it by a ref who just doesn't know the rules well enough.

This is another often misunderstood and nuanced rule that I imagine is extremely hard to officiate. Harden really did push the limits of the rulebook, gotta give credit to him for being an innovator.

 

[Root4GT]

As I'm always told by refs and every level I've been exposed to, "a foul is a foul, a violation is a violation." They call them as they see them. I just believe some are in better positions than others. For my son's training facility, the owner brings in college refs to officiate the in-house league and these guys are exceptionally better than HS, who are exceptionally better than AAU/MS. It's a thankless job. My thing is, if they're hustling to get into position, I'm not going to grumble much.

A foul generally has to impact the play. You see guys put their hands on a guy with the ball without any impact and no foul is called. You see moving screens all the time where the defender gets around the guy setting the screen with just a bit of contact. Are those fouls in your book? For most refs as they had no impact on the play the answer is no, play on.