1/4 - MBB vs. Boston College

[MtnWasp]

Root’s response to you on this seems correct to me. I would add more explicitly with regard to Tech, it is hard to play with consistent intensity when you are learning a system at the same time. As Root pointed out, the players are figuring out what the coach wants now. Progress.

That would hold more weight with me if we only looked at offense. But our defense is simple man-to-man. This is a toughness thing.
Stoudamire has said it himself numerous times over his first two season. He has had trouble relating to his teams' inconsistent level of toughness.
To me, the difference in the last three games is plain as the nose on my face, they have shown an improved competitive endurance. This is why the execution is more efficient.

Those HOF coaches have left because they could not relate to today's players. The new players would not accept tough coaching to become tough players. The new crop of great coaches will be the ones who can find a way to get this generation of players to become tough and play selflessly.

Will Stoudamire be one of those?

 

[Root4GT]

That would hold more weight with me if we only looked at offense. But our defense is simple man-to-man. This is a toughness thing.
Stoudamire has said it himself numerous times over his first two season. He has had trouble relating to his teams' inconsistent level of toughness.
To me, the difference in the last three games is plain as the nose on my face, they have shown an improved competitive endurance. This is why the execution is more efficient.

Those HOF coaches have left because they could not relate to today's players. The new players would not accept tough coaching to become tough players. The new crop of great coaches will be the ones who can find a way to get this generation of players to become tough and play selflessly.

Will Stoudamire be one of those?

Bold assumption on “new type of player” not willing to play tough and selflessly.”

Jim B, Roy, Coach K (all HOF Coaches) were also old men. Pitino seemed to be fine with current players and yes he is also an old Man. Laranagga and Hamilton are also Old men.

Age matters more for their own ability to do everything to do with current players in my view.

What current ACC Coach has a very good track record of success as a HC? None as I see it. That is a core issue for the ACC.

As far as GT and CDS go it’s way too early to come to a conclusion as you point out. No way to know how tough his team play/compete.

The current 3 game streak is encouraging but clearly not Proof. The two game road trip is huge as you pointed out. A real opportunity to demonstrate real growth as a team.

The ACC is open for a great Coach to own the conference.

 

[gte447f]

Bold assumption on “new type of player” not willing to play tough and selflessly.”

Jim B, Roy, Coach K (all HOF Coaches) were also old men. Pitino seemed to be fine with current players and yes he is also an old Man. Laranagga and Hamilton are also Old men.

Age matters more for their own ability to do everything to do with current players in my view.

What current ACC Coach has a very good track record of success as a HC? None as I see it. That is a core issue for the ACC.

As far as GT and CDS go it’s way too early to come to a conclusion as you point out. No way to know how tough his team play/compete.

The current 3 game streak is encouraging but clearly not Proof. The two game road trip is huge as you pointed out. A real opportunity to demonstrate real growth as a team.

The ACC is open for a great Coach to own the conference.

It’s not a stretch to assume it’s harder to illicit commitment from today’s players when they are being paid as much as professional athletes (substantially more than most other professions) but are free agents and are not likely to play for the same team for more than a year or two (might play for 3-4 different teams during “college”). In my opinion, this situation probably played a not insignificant role in the decision to retire for several of the old guard of ACC coaches. You chose not to include Tony Bennett in your list of coaches who you suggest simply retired because they were old. Bennett basically explicitly said he was quitting because the nil/transfer environment no longer allowed him to coach up players the way he wanted to and was known for.

 

[YlJacket]

It’s not a stretch to assume it’s harder to illicit commitment from today’s players when they are being paid as much as professional athletes (substantially more than most other professions) but are free agents and are not likely to play for the same team for more than a year or two (might play for 3-4 different teams during “college”). In my opinion, this situation probably played a not insignificant role in the decision to retire for several of the old guard of ACC coaches. You chose not to include Tony Bennett in your list of coaches who you suggest simply retired because they were old. Bennett basically explicitly said he was quitting because the nil/transfer environment no longer allowed him to coach up players the way he wanted to and was known for.

A good friend of mine had business dealings with Bennett and through him some interaction with Roy/K. One level removed but I can say the current "structure" for college basketball and trying to "coach" players who have agents in their ears is the major reason they left. One can argue whether their approach is too old school now and whether their ACC schools had enough NIL/other resources to compete with well oiled SEC financial institutions - but they didn't want the job anymore because the relationship is now a pro style relationship.

 

[cpf2001]

It’s not a stretch to assume it’s harder to illicit commitment from today’s players when they are being paid as much as professional athletes (substantially more than most other professions) but are free agents and are not likely to play for the same team for more than a year or two (might play for 3-4 different teams during “college”). In my opinion, this situation probably played a not insignificant role in the decision to retire for several of the old guard of ACC coaches. You chose not to include Tony Bennett in your list of coaches who you suggest simply retired because they were old. Bennett basically explicitly said he was quitting because the nil/transfer environment no longer allowed him to coach up players the way he wanted to and was known for.

In pro leagues players are often seen to play harder in “contract years” because they want to earn a big next payday. With annual free agency in college currently that’s every year. That should be more motivating, not less. There’s both the carrot - play to try to get more next year - and the stick. You can fall fast if you don’t play hard. Look at Amare Abram.

Getting buy-in vs just effort is different and that could be harder for a coach, but that “you don’t want to have to transfer down” incentive should be strong on that if a coach can communicate effectively. Different, not necessarily harder.

 

[MtnWasp]

No way to know how tough his team play/compete.

Are you not watching the team play?

You and other posters often point out how inferior the ACC is today than it was in the 70s-90s. Based on what is this position based?

Since there is no time machine for a current team to play a past one, the statistics are non-tanslatable. The only way is to watch both and make subjective assessments.

To me it is obvious that what is different is consistency in the intensity of play. The athletes are similarly athletic, sized and skilled. What is different is consistent balls to the walls effort. Today the players play in bursts. Other conferences have done a better job of getting more consistent high effort play than the ACC coaches are currently getting.

The ACC is soft.

We know Stoudamire recognizes this. If he can maintain the tough play consistently, his star will rise.

 

[Northeast Stinger]

In pro leagues players are often seen to play harder in “contract years” because they want to earn a big next payday. With annual free agency in college currently that’s every year. That should be more motivating, not less. There’s both the carrot - play to try to get more next year - and the stick. You can fall fast if you don’t play hard. Look at Amare Abram.

Getting buy-in vs just effort is different and that could be harder for a coach, but that “you don’t want to have to transfer down” incentive should be strong on that if a coach can communicate effectively. Different, not necessarily harder.

Yeah, what’s missing in this conversation to me are the teams that last year played with intensity for an entire season. Though I didn’t watch every game for every team, I saw some teams that looked to be playing with intensity every time I saw them. In the ACC this included NC State and UNC. Other teams that never seemed to take a game off were UConn, Purdue, and Alabama.

To reiterate, I don’t think Tech’s problem is fat overpaid lazy athletes. Lance Terry certainly has worked very hard to get where he is. Duncan also. Others we could name who are slower to get it are younger, less mature or have a steeper learning curve.

Anyway, I’m resisting the idea that Tech’s previous lack of intensity was they were coddled too much. Lineup changes, players learning new roles, injuries, developing team chemistry could account for 90% of it.

 

[Root4GT]

Are you not watching the team play?

You and other posters often point out how inferior the ACC is today than it was in the 70s-90s. Based on what is this position based?

Since there is no time machine for a current team to play a past one, the statistics are non-tanslatable. The only way is to watch both and make subjective assessments.

To me it is obvious that what is different is consistency in the intensity of play. The athletes are similarly athletic, sized and skilled. What is different is consistent balls to the walls effort. Today the players play in bursts. Other conferences have done a better job of getting more consistent high effort play than the ACC coaches are currently getting.

The ACC is soft.

We know Stoudamire recognizes this. If he can maintain the tough play consistently, his star will rise.

LOL. Look the players who came out of the ACC in the 80s and 90s. You could fill 5 All NBA team with that level of talent and it came from almost all the ACC schools.

Now it’s Duke putting out a stud freshman and not much of anything.

The league now is Both Soft and lacking top tier talent.

 

[gte447f]

In pro leagues players are often seen to play harder in “contract years” because they want to earn a big next payday. With annual free agency in college currently that’s every year. That should be more motivating, not less. There’s both the carrot - play to try to get more next year - and the stick. You can fall fast if you don’t play hard. Look at Amare Abram.

Getting buy-in vs just effort is different and that could be harder for a coach, but that “you don’t want to have to transfer down” incentive should be strong on that if a coach can communicate effectively. Different, not necessarily harder.

I think your question about getting buy in vs just effort is probably the more salient point than expecting everyone to just ball out in free agency every year to maximize their value. Without time in a system and commitment to learning the system and to playing your specific role within the system, a college basketball team is not likely to be anywhere near as good as it could be.

 

[GT_B]

I have been very critical of CDS as it had looked all season like we had no idea what we were doing on either end of the floor.

I am genuinely surprised at the way we have looked the last 3 games. It definitely helps that McCollum has found his game again and Powell is playing well, but Souare has been the biggest surprise to me. He is extremely athletic and moves well, he has no handles, but he gives 100% effort all the time and just makes plays.

I think we found an offensive identity with getting to the basket, between Mustaf/terry/mccollum the goal is to get to the rim and then either look for a corner 3 from powell or a lob to baye or souare.

The sad thing is, we played so poorly to start this year, we would have to go like 15-4 in ACC play to be considered for the tournament

 

[yjfan]

I have been very critical of CDS as it had looked all season like we had no idea what we were doing on either end of the floor.

I am genuinely surprised at the way we have looked the last 3 games. It definitely helps that McCollum has found his game again and Powell is playing well, but Souare has been the biggest surprise to me. He is extremely athletic and moves well, he has no handles, but he gives 100% effort all the time and just makes plays.

I think we found an offensive identity with getting to the basket, between Mustaf/terry/mccollum the goal is to get to the rim and then either look for a corner 3 from powell or a lob to baye or souare.

The sad thing is, we played so poorly to start this year, we would have to go like 15-4 in ACC play to be considered for the tournament

Or we could win the ACC tournament

 

[awbuzz]

Or we could win the ACC tournament

That'd work too

 

[Connell62]

Tip of the cap to Duncan Powell as well. I am often skeptical of guys transferring so far up but Powell has really stepped up the last couple weeks

He’s just a straight up lunch pale guy that puts in the work. Always plays hard, great teammate.

He is always receptive to the kids. We went down to the court during warm-up’s at Chapel Hill, and he came up into the stands, dapped up my son and talked to him, and took pics. When he saw him on Saturday, he still remembered him.

 

[Connell62]

Those HOF coaches have left because they could not relate to today's players. The new players would not accept tough coaching to become tough players. The new crop of great coaches will be the ones who can find a way to get this generation of players to become tough and play selflessly.

Will Stoudamire be one of those?

Disagree with you here. There’s still plenty of kids out there that are dogs, gym rats, coachable, whatever you want to call them.

IMO, the reason that many of these coaches have left, Larranaga all but admitted it, they lost their edge. Before NIL, a lot of those coaches (maybe not Bennett) had the bagman network in place when others didn’t.

When paying players became fair game, the “game” got a lot more difficult for them.

 

[AUFC]

Disagree with you here. There’s still plenty of kids out there that are dogs, gym rats, coachable, whatever you want to call them.

IMO, the reason that many of these coaches have left, Larranaga all but admitted it, they lost their edge. Before NIL, a lot of those coaches (maybe not Bennett) had the bagman network in place when others didn’t.

When paying players became fair game, the “game” got a lot more difficult for them.

I like Larranaga to preface this but I rolled my eyes when he said he was retiring because of NIL but willingly let John Ruiz bankroll his roster for a couple years. It was the only reason he got one more appearance in the Final Four.

 

[kg01]

Disagree with you here. There’s still plenty of kids out there that are dogs, gym rats, coachable, whatever you want to call them.

IMO, the reason that many of these coaches have left, Larranaga all but admitted it, they lost their edge. Before NIL, a lot of those coaches (maybe not Bennett) had the bagman network in place when others didn’t.

When paying players became fair game, the “game” got
a lot more difficult for them.

I wish I could like this post twice.

Good/great players accept coaching. Usually the ones that reject it are on their way to failing anyway.

That's not to say any player will accept any coach. Has no one ever dealt with a supervisor that doesn't know what tf they're doing? Being not 100% on board with that doesn't make you a poor employee, does it?

I like Larranaga to preface this but I rolled my eyes when he said he was retiring because of NIL but willingly let John Ruiz bankroll his roster for a couple years. It was the only reason he got one more appearance in the Final Four.

Agreed. Very hypocritical of him imo.

 

[SecretAgentBuzz]

Another big win and the gains that we saw against AA&M are carrying over. BC is not very good right now, but I'll take any conference win. I am really enjoying the newfound defensive intensity and passing on offense. Great win and kudos to the team and coaches. The team certainly seems to be coming together and having fun.

We have a relatively easy ACC schedule from here on out, so if we can continue this good play on the road, there is a path to a winning conference record and maybe an NIT bid. Unfortunately, with the hole we built, we have a LOT of work to do just get back up to a bubble team, so a NCAA bid is probably out of the question without a huge turn around. Let's go!

 

[orientalnc]

Another big win and the gains that we saw against AA&M are carrying over. BC is not very good right now, but I'll take any conference win. I am really enjoying the newfound defensive intensity and passing on offense. Great win and kudos to the team and coaches. The team certainly seems to be coming together and having fun.

We have a relatively easy ACC schedule from here on out, so if we can continue this good play on the road, there is a path to a winning conference record and maybe an NIT bid. Unfortunately, with the hole we built, we have a LOT of work to do just get back up to a bubble team, so a NCAA bid is probably out of the question without a huge turn around. Let's go!

I think you mean we don't have to play Duke again. We are capable of losing to several of our remaining opponents. I like what we're seeing, but the jury is still out.

 

[SecretAgentBuzz]

I think you mean we don't have to play Duke again. We are capable of losing to several of our remaining opponents. I like what we're seeing, but the jury is still out.

We are capable of losing them all. We did lose to North Florida, so...

But yeah, looking ahead, the hardest games are @Clemson and @Pitt, but most of the remaining schedule are toss-ups or winnable games. If we get on a run, I can easily see us finishing 11-9 or even 12-8 in conference.

 

[AUFC]

Probably need to get to 14-6 (12-4 the rest of the way) and win a couple ACCT games to even get into bubble conversation. With how easy the schedule is, it's not impossible but nobody should have that expectation. Going 2-0 on the road this week would be a great start - the team handled the UNC and Oklahoma environments pretty well so I'm hopeful.