“I got out” bad for recruiting

RonJohn

Helluva Engineer
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4,996
I’ve heard some folks refer to engineering as a 5-year major. I went under the semester system and I think civil was 135 credit hours at the time, which was similar to the other engineering disciplines. I think that a non-engineering BA or BS is typically 120 credit hours.

1987-1992 it was about the same. I needed 204 quarter hours for my degree(approx 136 semester hours). Using a base of 12 quarters(4 years, 3 qtrs/year) that would be 17 hours per quarter to graduate on time. That is higher than what most people I knew at GT or other schools took.
 

inGTwetrust

Ramblin' Wreck
Messages
720
I appreciate all of the stories about how challenging your times were at GT, but you have to understand where TStan is coming from. What 18 year old who is going to have a full time job (D1 athlete) is going to get excited when alumni are constantly talking I Got Out? Im not saying to lower the standards by any means, but from a marketing perspective that phrase does 0 to help bring positive attention. Employers won't view Tech grads any different if they stopped using that phrase ...
 

iceeater1969

Helluva Engineer
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9,668
The graduation rate at GT is 81.9% https://www.google.com/search?q=Georgia tech graduation rate&cad=h
The acceptance rate is 25% https://www.google.com/search?q=georgia tech acceptance rate&cad=h

Maybe we should change it to "I got in."
Is it true he hill no longer has gt grads help recruit hs seniors at the college day?

(In 64 the gt rep and grad totally out classed the other school and i choose gt to the chagrin of my U of A parents.

If it is so
How are Gt students recruited so very well nationally and internationally with out NEED for help from " ACTIVE AND ENGAGED - alumni?

if not who on the board (that presents in Georgia) can tell us about how our presentation is attended & how it is received?
 

Techster

Helluva Engineer
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18,237
I thought TStan wanted to promote Tech as an elite academic school? Seems like the tradition of "getting out" would fit right in with that vision.

Just out of curiosity, I looked up a few of our academic peers (schools that are STEM heavy):

MIT
https://due.mit.edu/news/2014/fun-facts-about-mit-retention-and-graduation-rates

CalTech
https://www.collegefactual.com/coll...ology/academic-life/graduation-and-retention/

Cal Berkeley (Includes all major including "Liberal Arts")
https://opa.berkeley.edu/uc-berkeley-retention-and-graduation-rates

Going a little further, I looked at the retention rate of the "Elite" schools that GT is grouped with:

https://www.usnews.com/best-college...niversities/freshmen-least-most-likely-return

The dirty secret with elite academics isn't that they're "elite" because they cull out the less deserving after enrolling, but that they are selective on the front end. The retention rate almost without fail for these "elite" schools is in the upper 90's. Why is that? Is it because they are more selective (or more successful) identifying those that will succeed in their programs, or are they better at supporting their students once enrolled? A combination of both?

I think there's some truth to the whole hurting ourselves with the "I got out" ethos GT students embrace. There's certainly truth to it as GT is more rigorous than the average college, but I also think GT is more self aware these days of that and has taken steps to improve retention rate more in line with our peers.
 

forensicbuzz

21st Century Throwback Dad
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8,854
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North Shore, Chicago
Were you a Chem major? I took Chem 1101 and 1102 in Fall 1987/Winter 1988 and there were 200-300 people in those classes.
Started off ChemE. Had to take 1111, 1112, 2113 as my freshman chemistry requirement. ChemE, CereE, Chemistry, MateE had to take special chem. I don't know that it was much different, but maybe it was. Since I started Summer 1987, my classes were smaller.
 

forensicbuzz

21st Century Throwback Dad
Messages
8,854
Location
North Shore, Chicago
I
This is probably going to be a wildly unpopular opinion. I can't speak to how hard Tech was in the 'good ole days'. But as someone who attended both Tech and uGA (for a blessedly short time). Tech was easier.

At the cesspool, the professors were actively trying to fail kids. This was the early 2000's when President Adams was trying to make it a "public ivy". Which required a certain appearance of academic rigor. There were a lot of ridiculous trick questions on exams, weed classes, curves, etc. Half the class was hungover and only in class because their parents would get mad if they flunked out. (Not me, left the dump with a B+ GPA.) Granted, this was the business school. Not the Phys Ed. the football players take.

In contrast, at Tech; the quality of the students was so high, [most of] the professors had some respect for their students. The exams were content based. Know your sh*t? You'd get a good grade.

Now, you really had to know your stuff. You couldn't fake through it. But every person in the class was one of the top 3 smartest kids from their high school. We studied, we worked hard and we got good grades. I did have a class where the professor said he'd only give two A's. But ~70% of the class ended up with a B anyway.

Any shafting that happened was more due to the ridiculous bureaucracy on the Hill. ("Need a required class to graduate? Oh, that class is only offered every third Summer semester."; "You did pre-apply to apply to graduate 3 semesters before graduation, right?" My graduation application was rejected the spring I applied, because I hadn't re-applied to the School, not the Institute, after my second semester. Had to officially graduate in the Summer.)

I understand in the old days Tech was more about the exhibition of the difficulty. Competitive grades and all that. You could know your stuff and still get shafted. These days, I think Tech more so has very high, but fair, standards.
I think the combination of the Hope/Zell Miller Scholarship program, the popularity of rankings like the USN&WR Best Colleges, and the State dramatically cutting back funding changed the atmosphere academically at Ma Tech. With states cutting education budgets for higher education, the state universities had to start passing more of the cost onto the students. This, in combination with the opportunity to earn a free education in-state through the Hope/Miller scholarships, made it much more attractive to the top-tier student in the State of Georgia. So, a much higher percentage of these top GA students were staying at home as opposed to going somewhere out-of-state. This helped uga as well as Tech. To maintain the revenue stream, a 3.0 gpa (Dean's List at Tech) had to be maintainable by the in-state students. Remember, since Tech is a State school, 60% of incoming freshmen are supposed to be from Georgia. There was pressure from the Hill to make the courses more appropriately difficult. Also, the academic support programs instituted under Clough greatly improved the learning environment. In addition, the secondary schools in Georgia improved for the top students, thus better preparing a larger population of HS students to be able to survive the rigors of Tech.

So, as I see it, there was a great confluence of events that occurred around the turn of the century that drove the freshman retention rate from 35% to the 97% we have now.

Is the material easier today? Hell No.
Are the students "smarter?" I'd say probably not.
Are they better prepared? Most definitely.
Is it harder to get into Tech? Absolutely. (Although, with the common app, the number of applications submitted to Tech has increased tremendously. So, even with accepting more students that when I was there, the percentage accepted has dropped.)
Is it easier to stay in Tech and make it through? Probably (the statistics tend to support this conclusion)
Do you have to work your tail off to make it through? Absolutely.
Is it easier to make an "A" in a class? Not sure.
Is it easier to make a "B" in a class? I'd bet the farm on it.
Has the reputation improved from the 80's to the 10's? I'd say amongst those that deal with the engineering profession, NO; but, within the general population, I think more people outside the Southeast are aware of the academic prowess.
 
Messages
13,443
Location
Augusta, GA
It's been said before but perhaps needs repeating.

I don't know when the UselessNews effect kicked in, but, before that, Tech was easier in and harder out.

You couldn't get in as a stiff, but if you were top 10% (wag) of your class, especially in math, especially in-state, and maybe willing to start in the summer, you could get in.

However, you only had a couple of quarters to wake-up to the reality that you needed to study and work. Professors did not have administrators with retention and "satisfaction" statistics over their shoulders. I don't know freshman retention, but it wasn't 97%, maybe not half that.

Swim or sink was the pedagogy of Tech full stop, not just one class, no longer required.

I appreciate that Tech still challenges and pushes a more select student body. Still, I suspect the difference is greater than many appreciate.

I got in as a kid from FL because I was willing to start in the summer. I retook a Chem class and a Calc class because of Ds. I got out getting A's in 4th year AE classes. I'm sorry, but I'm proud to say, "I got out."

Is Dean's List still a 3.0?
I think a lot was lost at Tech by dumping the quarter system.
 

forensicbuzz

21st Century Throwback Dad
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8,854
Location
North Shore, Chicago
If Jeopardy ever needs an answer in the category of "Hubris", this thread is getting there. We need some football or something.
There's no hubris here. The facts are simple. I did some research about 20 years ago. I went through the Top 100 Universities listed in the USN&WR and listed out the gpa requirement for Dean's List or equivalent. There was only one school that only required a 3.0 gpa.

There are hundreds of fantastic universities and colleges throughout the US. No one is questioning the quality of education one can get somewhere else. Bottom line is that the most common factor (other than love for Tech sports) on this site is that a large percentage of us matriculated at Tech. These are the experiences we have. I never consciously chose to use the term "I got out," but I do. It wasn't until someone pointed it out later that I realized I did it too. I don't brag about "getting out," but I do say "I got out in 1993" as opposed to saying "I graduated in 1993." I'm not sure why TStan has such an issue with this. It is an honor to graduate from Georgia Tech. It's not easy. That diploma is well deserved when it's awarded, and student-athletes should understand that.

I think 18-year old kids should think deeply about whether they're willing to put in the effort it takes to make it through Tech. It's the same effort it will take to get through some other well respected programs, but also much more than some others. A student -athlete that doesn't take Tech's academics seriously won't be here long.
 

RonJohn

Helluva Engineer
Messages
4,996
Another thing about this thread. I read the AJC story. I don't see many threads on GTSwarm that are "about" how hard it is to complete a degree at GT. I see posts inside other threads such as recruiting that discuss it, but that isn't the focus of the thread. In this story, I didn't get the impression that TStan is asking alumni not to use that phrase. Even if he were asking us to, the majority of alumni don't buy season tickets and don't donate to the athletic department, so I don't know how many would even listen. I didn't understand from the article if the discussion is about recruits reaction to "got out" or if it is about the way the athletic department presents the academic plan to recruits for how they will be able to get their degree. There definitely is the implication that recruits ask the recruiters about the phrase, but there aren't any examples even with no names of that happening. The article does have a general description of the athletic department's way of discussing academics with recruits. I seriously doubt that any of the recruits get bombarded with academic horror stories from GT alumni. They probably do get bombarded with academic horror stories from opposing teams recruiters.

However, the only reason there is a thread dedicated to this subject is because there was an AJC article about it. If the point of the article was to dampen such discussion, it failed miserably.
 

Animal02

Banned
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6,269
Location
Southeastern Michigan
Just out of curiosity, I looked up a few of our academic peers (schools that are STEM heavy):

MIT
https://due.mit.edu/news/2014/fun-facts-about-mit-retention-and-graduation-rates

CalTech
https://www.collegefactual.com/coll...ology/academic-life/graduation-and-retention/

Cal Berkeley (Includes all major including "Liberal Arts")
https://opa.berkeley.edu/uc-berkeley-retention-and-graduation-rates

Going a little further, I looked at the retention rate of the "Elite" schools that GT is grouped with:

https://www.usnews.com/best-college...niversities/freshmen-least-most-likely-return

The dirty secret with elite academics isn't that they're "elite" because they cull out the less deserving after enrolling, but that they are selective on the front end. The retention rate almost without fail for these "elite" schools is in the upper 90's. Why is that? Is it because they are more selective (or more successful) identifying those that will succeed in their programs, or are they better at supporting their students once enrolled? A combination of both?

I think there's some truth to the whole hurting ourselves with the "I got out" ethos GT students embrace. There's certainly truth to it as GT is more rigorous than the average college, but I also think GT is more self aware these days of that and has taken steps to improve retention rate more in line with our peers.
Tech reversed course when it started getting hurt in rankings because of the low retention rate. As usual....so rag or org decided what was important. Personally, I liked the sink or swim mentality......I saw talented architect students drop out because of the pressure......but the fact is that was fitting prep for life in the profession.
 

RonJohn

Helluva Engineer
Messages
4,996
Tech reversed course when it started getting hurt in rankings because of the low retention rate. As usual....so rag or org decided what was important. Personally, I liked the sink or swim mentality......I saw talented architect students drop out because of the pressure......but the fact is that was fitting prep for life in the profession.

The Board of Regents has been stressing six-year graduation rates since about 2010. uga and GT were already at about 80% then, but it has been a priority for the BOR. The BOR even said back then that they were going to tie funding and the Presidents' compensation to the graduation rate. I don't remember very well, but I think it had to do with reactions to some for profit schools that basically enrolled students to get their money and federal grant money but let the students just whither until they dropped out.

It can be a bad priority if schools just allow students to skate through. However, it can be extremely positive if schools only admit students who are likely to succeed, and then give them the tools and support they need to learn the material.
 

Gtmamn61

Georgia Tech Fan
Messages
78
‘[most of] the professors had some respect for their students. The exams were content based. Know your sh*t? You'd get a good grade.’

‘not to mention the hours I spent in the professor’s office getting help on concepts that caused me to struggle’

A professor’s help and respect are foreign concepts from my experience at Tech.
 
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