Yet another CPJ vs CGC thread

[Buzztheirazz]

When you’re winning 3 games in ATL people don’t show up. Win and they will come. Just having a punchers chance will get more to
Come out. People gave up on Geoke because it wasn’t even fun to watch.

 

[Steverc]

A comparison can be made between recent transitions in GT basketball and GT football. Brian Gregory was hired to take a team with a rock bottom APR playing its home games in Gwinnett Arena and get it back on solid footing. I saw him as a sacrificial lamb that would be replaced with a big name coach once his assignment was complete. Unfortunately, he was replaced with an inexperienced coach that could not move the program forward.

Collins was hired to make a drastic change in style of play. I also thought that he would be replaced once that job was done. I worry that Key might be another Pastner and we will be spinning our wheels for another couple of years.

 

[5277hike]

A comparison can be made between recent transitions in GT basketball and GT football. Brian Gregory was hired to take a team with a rock bottom APR playing its home games in Gwinnett Arena and get it back on solid footing. I saw him as a sacrificial lamb that would be replaced with a big name coach once his assignment was complete. Unfortunately, he was replaced with an inexperienced coach that could not move the program forward.

Collins was hired to make a drastic change in style of play. I also thought that he would be replaced once that job was done. I worry that Key might be another Pastner and we will be spinning our wheels for another couple of years.

Two things
- CBK does not appear to have the baggage that CJP had with some of his associations.That caused a lot of turmoil for his program.
- CBK was also given more resources for staff salaries and additional recruiting personnel.
I am more optimistic about Key being successful than I was about Pastner. Like a lot of others, I liked Pastner and wanted him to be successful. But I am more confident that Key actually will be.

 

[takethepoints]

I still blame most of the decline in football in the late-mid 2010s to MBob being spineless. It seemed apparent in 2013 and 2014 that he was trying to push CPJ out.

There was a lot of talk when CPJ was replaced about "reconnecting" with Georgia high schools to improve recruiting because CPJ's coaches had reportedly ignored them. This past year, there were quotes from local (Metro Atlanta) high school coach who said that he was happy to have GT coaches visiting his school again, because they didn't have one visit since CPJ had left. I don't really buy the CPJ's staff didn't pay attention to recruiting argument.

There was a lot of negative recruiting against the option. CPJ wasn't very effective at countering the negative publicity. It didn't help that MBob was on the "flagship" station making backhanded comments about it at that time. CPJ isn't a polished public speaker, but I thought he came across as very authentic in the media. @Ibeeballin could say if his personality was the same in person as on-air or not. I just have the impression that he was the same person no matter where he was.

GT got far behind the rest of the conference, except WF, with money for football. Back in 2015-2016 I said that running the program into the ground to try to get rid of the HC would set the program back. I still think that is a lot of it. Every other ACC program had a team of recruiting personnel. Those people can't officially talk to recruits, but they can pre-vet recruits instead of having the coaches spend lots of time watching film. Those people can talk to high schools and set up visits instead of having the coaching staff make their own calls to set up logistics. That is one area that CPJ asked for help to be in the 2010s instead of the 1980s but was turned down.

CPJ is a helluva coach, and is going into the HOF. He wasn't perfect. He did have flaws. CGC ran the program into the ground. He apparently was a totally different person in front of the cameras than he was off the record. I can't even fathom how anyone thinks you could win games with 3/4 speed, minimum contact, etc practices. However, he did try to get the public perception of GT up. Not every single thing he did was horrible. With that said, we are trying to a HOF coach and a coach who currently needs to win 35 of his next 37 games in order to qualify for the HOF. There is no comparison.

There are some things that CPJ could have done better. However, as I said at the beginning of this post, I blame a lot of the downward trend in the 2010s on MBob. He should have fired CPJ if that is what he thought was best for the direction of the football program. Using a passive-aggressive method of trying to squeeze the football program in order to get him to leave did not benefit anyone. It left CPJ behind everyone else. Things trended upwards after TStan came, but even with the extra staff/support that CGC got when he came in GT was still behind the majority of the conference.

I agree with almost all of this, I do think that the "downward trend in the 2010s" is a weak argument. Most people who make it begin with the injury tsunami in 2015, then ignore 2016 and 2018, both winning seasons and bowl teams. The 2017 team would have been at least two victories better, imho, if King hadn't pulled that hamstring (we beat UT by at least 10 points) and there's no miracle for Miami. Our main problem in those years is that we had a series of bad injuries that deprived us of QBs. #1 with a bullet was losing Campbell, though Jordan getting hurt was a close second.

Ah, well. I had hoped that Paul would still be our coach or that he would be replaced by - probably- Moncken. (To those who would say this would have led to disaster, due to rule changes, I refer them to the Air Force Academy.) But others thought we needed to play "big-boy football" (whatever that is) and we now see the program in ruins as a result. Too bad that. I hope Key can rebuild it for us, but we'll just have to see.

 

[iopjacket]

For what it's worth, attached is a link to Kelly Quinlan's take on the authenticity of Brett Key, TFC (aka scooter per the questioner), and Paul Johnson. The comments on authenticity starts at 28:36. Kelly Quinlan's YouTube program has some good information, but the product could use some polishing.

JOL TV: Georgia Tech Football Post ACC Kickoff Chat 2023

 

[4shotB]

Disclaimer: I haven't read all of these posts but it is embarrassing to Coach Johnson (imo) that a thread comparing him and Geoff Collins would go on for 8 pages. It is like a thread comparing dry aged wagyu to vienna sausage....or Cindy Crawford to Melissa McCarty....they (the threads) shouldn't have that long of a shelf life! And I certainly don't turn down vienna sausages neither. And wouldn't have turned down either Cindy or Melissa when I was younger (but before marriage of course). But it (vienna sausage) is NOT comparable to wagyu beef (imo). I guess the healthy differences of opinion though are what keeps people coming back here.

 

[GTpdm]

Disclaimer: I haven't read all of these posts but it is embarrassing to Coach Johnson (imo) that a thread comparing him and Geoff Collins would go on for 8 pages. It is like a thread comparing dry aged wagyu to vienna sausage....or Cindy Crawford to Melissa McCarty....they (the threads) shouldn't have that long of a shelf life! And I certainly don't turn down vienna sausages neither. And wouldn't have turned down either Cindy or Melissa when I was younger (but before marriage of course). But it (vienna sausage) is NOT comparable to wagyu beef (imo). I guess the healthy differences of opinion though are what keeps people coming back here.

Vienna sausage? More like Spaghetti-Os.

 

[wrmathis]

Vienna sausage? More like Spaghetti-Os.

dont be knocking Spaghetti-Os

 

[SOWEGA Jacket]

In 20 years from now GT fans will look back at Johnson as a legend who actually won big and beat UGA. He will be loved way more than he is now. We are a very spoiled fanbase having guys like Ross, O’Leary, and Johnson run our team over the past 30 years. Collins gave us a taste of what the next 20-30 years could be like.

 

[CEB]

Vienna sausage? More like Spaghetti-Os.

With a shelf date of 1982... but I’m sure it’ll be fine; those things last for ever.

In 20 years from now GT fans will look back at Johnson as a legend who actually won big and beat UGA. He will be loved way more than he is now. We are a very spoiled fanbase having guys like Ross, O’Leary, and Johnson run our team over the past 30 years. Collins gave us a taste of what the next 20-30 years could be like.

I think most fans can see it now. God forbid it takes 20 years of “Collinsesque” performance to bring that into focus for the rest.

 

[bobongo]

In 20 years from now GT fans will look back at Johnson as a legend who actually won big and beat UGA. He will be loved way more than he is now. We are a very spoiled fanbase having guys like Ross, O’Leary, and Johnson run our team over the past 30 years. Collins gave us a taste of what the next 20-30 years could be like.

The hope is that 20 years from now we'll be looking back on how Brent Key pulled us up by our bootstraps and restored the program even beyond where George or Paul took us, and Geoff will be seen as an ugly, temporary aberration.

 

[danny daniel]

You are posting on the wrong board. For some reason, not based on fact, a huge percentage on this board believe that Paul Johnson was great and left the program in great shape. The facts don't support that view, nor do the majority of posters on some other boards.

However, your view is correct. Few of the offensive skills of the option translate to the offenses every FBS team uses. Further, 8 defensive starters from Johnson's last team graduated--and his defenses were not good even with a clock burning offense that kept them rested on the sidelines. The December signing date meant that Collins could not bring in recruits with the proper skill sets his first year (like on OL, which was the biggest need, and they were able to sign no one). Then COVID hit, which hurt recruiting.

To your point, Collins wasn't the right guy, but who could have done significantly better with the available talent? Johnson's recruiting was never good and got worse toward the end. When he lost his starting QB and saw that the cupboard was bare on D, he said I think I'll retire now. Kelly Quinlan made the point in an interview this week that Johnson's OL wasn't good the last two years-- even for his offense.

Johnson walked into the most talented team ever at Tech. He left behind one of the least talented. I said when he was hired that he would run the program into the ground. And he did.

Maybe the point should be "not the 3-9 record but the really poor fundamental (and poor competitive) football played under Collins".

 

[a5ehren]

A comparison can be made between recent transitions in GT basketball and GT football. Brian Gregory was hired to take a team with a rock bottom APR playing its home games in Gwinnett Arena and get it back on solid footing. I saw him as a sacrificial lamb that would be replaced with a big name coach once his assignment was complete. Unfortunately, he was replaced with an inexperienced coach that could not move the program forward.

Collins was hired to make a drastic change in style of play. I also thought that he would be replaced once that job was done. I worry that Key might be another Pastner and we will be spinning our wheels for another couple of years.

We're broke. There isn't a "name" coach with experience walking through that door any time soon. We couldn't afford friggin' Taggert, and he's like 60 years old and didn't have any other options.

 

[slugboy]

We're broke. There isn't a "name" coach with experience walking through that door any time soon. We couldn't afford friggin' Taggert, and he's like 60 years old and didn't have any other options.

We just hired Stoudamire in basketball.

Maybe you’re right, but a simpler explanation is that Key was the most acceptable candidate to all the stakeholders. Fritz and Chadwell had strings attached that were objectionable to important stakeholders

 

[cpf2001]

We just hired Stoudamire in basketball.

Maybe you’re right, but a simpler explanation is that Key was the most acceptable candidate to all the stakeholders. Fritz and Chadwell had strings attached that were objectionable to important stakeholders

IMO being too controlled by certain donor stakeholders is just a fancy way of saying “broke” if none of them are single-handedly putting up money to hire a top-of-market-coach but still want veto power.

 

[a5ehren]

Stoudamire is a name for his playing days. He has an unremarkable coaching track record.

Key was the only person we could afford that was willing to take the job.

 

[slugboy]

IMO being too controlled by certain donor stakeholders is just a fancy way of saying “broke” if none of them are single-handedly putting up money to hire a top-of-market-coach but still want veto power.

If you’re on a hiring committee, it’s your responsibility to say things like “this coach is good but the terms and conditions are unacceptable”.

They did a much better job this time than last time. Saying “no” is an important part of a hiring process. It’s something that did not happen last time.

We’ve been through years of posts on this board asking “why didn’t anyone stop this stupid contract?”. Now, when people did block a deal they didn’t approve of, you’re saying it means we’re broke.

 

[AUFC]

Stoudamire is a name for his playing days. He has an unremarkable coaching track record.

Key was the only person we could afford that was willing to take the job.

Stoudamire is also one of the lowest paid coaches in the ACC. I don’t think there is necessarily anything wrong with taking hungry guys who just want a chance to win - I’m excited about both hires even if unproven.

 

[bobongo]

If you’re on a hiring committee, it’s your responsibility to say things like “this coach is good but the terms and conditions are unacceptable”.

They did a much better job this time than last time. Saying “no” is an important part of a hiring process. It’s something that did not happen last time.

We’ve been through years of posts on this board asking “why didn’t anyone stop this stupid contract?”. Now, when people did block a deal they didn’t approve of, you’re saying it means we’re broke.

It's both.
My sense is that terms and conditions were too steep for the established coaches, so the Powers That Be went with their fallback choice and will prove themselves in the end to have been not good, but lucky.

 

[cpf2001]

If you’re on a hiring committee, it’s your responsibility to say things like “this coach is good but the terms and conditions are unacceptable”.

They did a much better job this time than last time. Saying “no” is an important part of a hiring process. It’s something that did not happen last time.

We’ve been through years of posts on this board asking “why didn’t anyone stop this stupid contract?”. Now, when people did block a deal they didn’t approve of, you’re saying it means we’re broke.

I think Fritz and Chadwell were both more reasonable options than Collins/Whisenhunt but they aren’t ones that suggest we’re flush with cash. (Not exactly news, of course.)

If Key was the default fallback because nobody could agree on anyone slightly more expensive, and nobody could pony up cash for someone MUCH more expensive (but more agreeable), that seems like the action of a cash-strapped group.

Hopefully Key works out, I’m personally optimistic, but if we were outsiders watching this happen at NCST or whenever, I think we’d be saying something like “lol they can’t even afford a Chadwell since some of them think they’re too good for him.”