Willie Fritz and the spread option

[vamosjackets]

B

Braun is a potential NFL lineman who already got his degree from GT that will set him up for life regardless of how his football career ends up. Do you actually believe that he would have 100% stayed if CPJ was back in an offense that wouldn’t show any of his ability to play on Sundays? On a team that might’ve been in the middle of the pack in the ACC, with basically no national media attention? Or do you think he would rather go to a nationally recognized program with a legitimate shot to play in the CFP or a NY6 bowl game, and have NFL scouts lining up at the door. Choose to believe what you want, but if you don’t think he would’ve even considered going elsewhere you’re full of it.

You do know Shaq Mason exists, right? ... You know, the best offensive guard in the known universe, on the best NFL team in the known universe came from playing in the option system at GT all 4 years while standing only 6'1" tall. You have no argument AT All. You think the NFL just scouts Alabama and Clemson??? That's not how it works ... like, not anywhere close to how anything works. And, the Brauns, since Trey played here all 4 years and played with Shaq, would know this. They aren't idiots who have an insane bias against the option. He CHOSE to come here and play in it after his brother played here 4 years with plenty of offers to factories to choose from. Yet, all of a sudden, after starting here for 3 years, he's going to change his "presuppositions" (to use a Parker Braun word). Your argument is really bad on this one.

 

[TheTechGuy]

Logicless and unprovable is your statement about us being set up for a monster year with the option had it returned. 2014 was a clear outlier. No other year under Johnson outside of 09 was close to it and it took a convergence of several lucky breaks to make that year what it was including an injury forcing a better running back to play turning around a season that was headed for mediocrity. That's a fluke and wasn't going to happen again.

2016 wasn't a fluke. It was just a normal up year like 06 was for Gailey. Beating a 7-5 UGA team doesn't make it special just because you have a little brother syndrome. It wasn't close to 2014.

Uh...06 was Gailey's best year. That wasn't a "normal up year" for him.

 

[lv20gt]

You do know Shaq Mason exists, right?

Did we have any other OL in the last decade make the NFL?

 

[smokey_wasp]

You do know Shaq Mason exists, right? ... You know, the best offensive guard in the known universe, on the best NFL team in the known universe came from playing in the option system at GT all 4 years while standing only 6'1" tall. You have no argument AT All. You think the NFL just scouts Alabama and Clemson??? That's not how it works ... like, not anywhere close to how anything works. And, the Brauns, since Trey played here all 4 years and played with Shaq, would know this. They aren't idiots who have an insane bias against the option. He CHOSE to come here and play in it after his brother played here 4 years with plenty of offers to factories to choose from. Yet, all of a sudden, after starting here for 3 years, he's going to change his "presuppositions" (to use a Parker Braun word). Your argument is really bad on this one.

GT also lacked the graduate degree he wanted, though. I think there is a very good chance he was going to leave. Not that it makes any difference. PJ retired and I doubt Braun would have stayed for Monken, either.

 

[4shotB]

I hate it enough that I have had to quit watching our games and am not watching another game this season - it will be the only way (other than venting here) that I will keep my sanity.
I'll try plugging back in next year and hope it will be better...

Not watching the games is OK if that's your decision. Not watching the games and posting here is the height of absurdity and/or hubris. We already have enough uninformed people espousing their nonsense here.

 

[Animal02]

Not watching the games is OK if that's your decision. Not watching the games and posting here is the height of absurdity and/or hubris. We already have enough uninformed people espousing their nonsense here.

And 11 years of posting history to prove it.

 

[Jim Prather]

Not watching the games is OK if that's your decision. Not watching the games and posting here is the height of absurdity and/or hubris. We already have enough uninformed people espousing their nonsense here.

Absurdity - probably... but this is cheaper therapy than letting this team ruin my whole Fall.
Hubris - not in the least. There is no pride in my statements. All I have are my own opinions. If you have issues with those, that is more your problem than mine.
As for being uniformed, I have said it before and will say it again, if only "experts" are allowed to post on a message board then there is no point of having a message board for fans.

 

[TheSilasSonRising]

It will be a great day when people no longer keep riding poor Shaq Mason's back.

The goal is to bring these guys in here for 4-6 years, improve them as players, let them grow as people, get an education and then let them get on with life.

Then our coaches are suppose to recruit someone as good or better.

Joe Ham, ELI, Billy Shaw, John Davis, Shawn Jones, Billy Lothridge weren't made to be as responsible so long afterwards as poor Shaq.

DeShaun Watson at cu - 2 time Davey O'Brien winner, 2 time Heisman finalist, N.C. qb and they dont seem to be brining him up almost every conversation. Wonder why.

 

[Lee]

You do know Shaq Mason exists, right? ... You know, the best offensive guard in the known universe, on the best NFL team in the known universe came from playing in the option system at GT all 4 years while standing only 6'1" tall. You have no argument AT All. You think the NFL just scouts Alabama and Clemson??? That's not how it works ... like, not anywhere close to how anything works. And, the Brauns, since Trey played here all 4 years and played with Shaq, would know this. They aren't idiots who have an insane bias against the option. He CHOSE to come here and play in it after his brother played here 4 years with plenty of offers to factories to choose from. Yet, all of a sudden, after starting here for 3 years, he's going to change his "presuppositions" (to use a Parker Braun word). Your argument is really bad on this one.

And your argument is really bad on assuming we would have some awesome squad this year in an option system.

If you’re so interested in throwing logic around, can you please explain how it makes any logical sense that the best option coach in the history of the universe would walk away from such a loaded roster? I mean logically, he would have stayed if all those things you said were true right? I mean who would walk away from a team clearly headed to another ACC championship and Orange bowl? Why would they finish their career getting embarrassed by a bad Minnesota team and not come back to coach a “loaded” team? It doesn’t make any logical sense.

Maybe, just maybe the man is as smart as you think he is and knew what this season held regardless of who was coaching them. Maybe he walked away on a winning season versus being fired after a losing season this year.

Or maybe he was just tired and humbly walked away leaving the cupboard so full for the next staff that he would be praised for his awesomeness forever and the option is the only way we can be competitive.

I’ll let you enlighten us since you’ve got the crystal ball.

 

[SteamWhistle]

4 points away from the CFP.

Where you lost me, no team that loses to Duke and UNC at home will Sniff the CFBP as long as it’s 4 teams.
Also that OL you mentioned was the pretty much the exact same from last season, I don’t see improvement there especially against the big boys and with Sewaks coaching. You also mentioned Graham in the QB discussion, you think he beats out Tobias, and if not you think he stays and plays WR after being suspended? Nate Woody got his first big boy job and stunk it up in year 1 and you’re very eager to give him time, where’s this energy for Coach Collins?! It’s getting to the point where it almost seems very clear your opinions are biased, if you really thought this year was about to be a triple option super team then what were the coaches doing last year with almost the exact same team but with in my opinion better ABs and WRs? Same exact OL as last year, but no Brad, Qua, Clinton, but this year would’ve been better? I have to disagree especially after seeing how the Defense faired last year, and how little the personnel has changed this season. I just can’t see what would’ve made this years team better then last year under the same staff, the talent is pretty much the same if not worse. The only thing I see improving is QB play, but how much does that help us? According to you the offense wasn’t the problem, looking at the personnel Tech still would’ve been out Manned up front on both sides of the ball which is the same thing going on right now. I’m sure we would’ve put up more points on Citadel and Temple, but do I chalk Temple up as a win based on Woody’s performance last year, just can’t do it. I hope You see a pattern here, how frustrating it can be when someone judges a coaches future off of one season. I do think Paul wins 5-6 games this season, but what’s that really good for at the end of the day, a coach in year 12 squeaking out 6 wins isn’t success imo. Also a side note, I encourage you to watch the film of our current commits and look at their offers, hopefully since you were a former athlete yourself you will see the night and day difference in talent and explosiveness. Back to my original point Tech was going to be in a bad spot regardless of who was coaching this year, I truly believe that. Even with an improved Defense, would a CPJ coached squad this year even sniff the success of 2009 or 2014? I think it’s fair and logical to say no, and I understand based on Techs history that’s not to be expected every year, but it was your main point.

 

[Longestday]

4 points and GT would be in the discussion. This is not a vacuum... its more than a coach. It's also the school, dollars, and AD. There is a reason that it seems most of the flashy players leave GT... and it was not because of the option, but the classroom.

You are telling me those Miami top 25 players are going to do 4 years at GT?

GT is going to recruit like Miami, keep these players eligible, all without getting hammered by the NCAA...

I hear Tenn. recruits very well too...

 

[RespectAPA]

It's kinda crazy to me how many people even among this fanbase think that games are decided by who has more 4*s and 5*s instead of who can put it together into a more effective offense. Tech's offense outperformed the defense on a yards per play basis every year that CPJ was here, usually by large margins [2014's team was 9th in offensive yards per play (5th among P5), but 111th in defensive yards per play!!], but the narrative is still that he couldn't get the recruits he needed on offense "because" of the triple option? The offensive squads he put together did fine!

That's not to say that he was the long term solution for the program, as there might be something to be said about the defensive issues being on him as a recruiter and coach, but trying to blame his performance on offensive scheme is scapegoating an aspect of the team for the past 11 years that has simply not been the problem.

 

[SteamWhistle]

4 points and GT would be in the discussion. This is not a vacuum... its more than a coach. It's also the school, dollars, and AD. There is a reason that it seems most of the flashy players leave GT... and it was not because of the option, but the classroom.

You are telling me those Miami top 25 players are going to do 4 years at GT?

GT is going to recruit like Miami, keep these players eligible, all without getting hammered by the NCAA...

I hear Tenn. recruits very well too...

A two loss GT will never make the playoffs, especially with how they treated FSU that season, defending champs and 13-0 and still were number 4. Tech beats FSU and the ACC has no playoff team that year.

 

[laoh]

Jeff Monken's record at GSU and beyond:
10-5 (semi-finals) 2010
11-3 (semi-finals) 2011
10-4 (semi-finals) 2012
7-4 2013
Army:
4-8 2014
2-10 2015
8-5 2016
10-3 2017
11-2 2018

Those first 2 years at Army for Jeff must've been pretty trying times for him and the fans... Can't imagine the pressure and stress, esp after 2015, winning only 2 games. Hopefully we can bounce back like Army did.

 

[lv20gt]

It's kinda crazy to me how many people even among this fanbase think that games are decided by who has more 4*s and 5*s instead of who can put it together into a more effective offense. Tech's offense outperformed the defense on a yards per play basis every year that CPJ was here, usually by large margins [2014's team was 9th in offensive yards per play (5th among P5), but 111th in defensive yards per play!!], but the narrative is still that he couldn't get the recruits he needed on offense "because" of the triple option? The offensive squads he put together did fine!

The problem was that the offense was usually not good enough to compensate for the weakness that his defense always was. When he had next level talent on offense, like with Thomas and Dwyer, it was enough to compensate. But last year, our offense which was clearly not a problem, had 6 games of failing to reach 28 points (and a 7th where it was only done in OT). In 2017 it was 4/11 games failing to reach that mark. In 2016 it was 4/13 games failing to reach that mark. In 2015 it was 8 times. When your entire program identity is based around your offense, you shouldn't be having a third of your games end up where you score less than 28. The offense being fine, doesn't mean the offense wasn't an issue. Fine isn't good enough when you build entirely around that side of the ball as Johnson did.

That's not to say that he was the long term solution for the program, as there might be something to be said about the defensive issues being on him as a recruiter and coach, but trying to blame his performance on offensive scheme is scapegoating an aspect of the team for the past 11 years that has simply not been the problem.

Have you ever considered that maybe his choice in offensive scheme helped contribute to the recruiting and defensive problems that you are pointing to? Maybe our inability to have a competent passing game hindered our ability to prepare to defense a passing game? Maybe our preferred OLmen didn't prepare our DL for what they would face from other opponents? It's not Johnson's offense vs "insert chosen DC"'s defense. It's all Johnson's team, and the strengths and weaknesses are interconnected. There is a very real aspect that the cost for us having the yards per play wonder on offense (which sure doesn't change some of the low scoring outputs), came at the cost of a lack of preparing our defense for what it would experience.

 

[Animal02]

Those first 2 years at Army for Jeff must've been pretty trying times for him and the fans... Can't imagine the pressure and stress, esp after 2015, winning only 2 games. Hopefully we can bounce back like Army did.

Rather dishonest appraisal considering
the three year before his arrival they were 3-9, 2-10, 3-9

 

[TheFlyest]

4 points and GT would be in the discussion. This is not a vacuum... its more than a coach. It's also the school, dollars, and AD. There is a reason that it seems most of the flashy players leave GT... and it was not because of the option, but the classroom.

You are telling me those Miami top 25 players are going to do 4 years at GT?

GT is going to recruit like Miami, keep these players eligible, all without getting hammered by the NCAA...

I hear Tenn. recruits very well too...

“What has head coach Geoff Collins said to you about your role in the Tech offense? “He said he could really put me anywhere, like at punt return, kick return, running back, receiver, I could play anywhere for them. He said that I’m very versatile ... I like that they’re off a wing-T and they went to more of a spread offense, that’s what most teams are doing now.”


http://www.gpb.org/blogs/gpb-sports-blog/2019/10/06/five-questions-daltons-jahmyr-gibbs

 

[vamosjackets]

Where you lost me, no team that loses to Duke and UNC at home will Sniff the CFBP as long as it’s 4 teams.
Also that OL you mentioned was the pretty much the exact same from last season, I don’t see improvement there especially against the big boys and with Sewaks coaching. You also mentioned Graham in the QB discussion, you think he beats out Tobias, and if not you think he stays and plays WR after being suspended? Nate Woody got his first big boy job and stunk it up in year 1 and you’re very eager to give him time, where’s this energy for Coach Collins?! It’s getting to the point where it almost seems very clear your opinions are biased, if you really thought this year was about to be a triple option super team then what were the coaches doing last year with almost the exact same team but with in my opinion better ABs and WRs? Same exact OL as last year, but no Brad, Qua, Clinton, but this year would’ve been better? I have to disagree especially after seeing how the Defense faired last year, and how little the personnel has changed this season. I just can’t see what would’ve made this years team better then last year under the same staff, the talent is pretty much the same if not worse. The only thing I see improving is QB play, but how much does that help us? According to you the offense wasn’t the problem, looking at the personnel Tech still would’ve been out Manned up front on both sides of the ball which is the same thing going on right now. I’m sure we would’ve put up more points on Citadel and Temple, but do I chalk Temple up as a win based on Woody’s performance last year, just can’t do it. I hope You see a pattern here, how frustrating it can be when someone judges a coaches future off of one season. I do think Paul wins 5-6 games this season, but what’s that really good for at the end of the day, a coach in year 12 squeaking out 6 wins isn’t success imo. Also a side note, I encourage you to watch the film of our current commits and look at their offers, hopefully since you were a former athlete yourself you will see the night and day difference in talent and explosiveness. Back to my original point Tech was going to be in a bad spot regardless of who was coaching this year, I truly believe that. Even with an improved Defense, would a CPJ coached squad this year even sniff the success of 2009 or 2014? I think it’s fair and logical to say no, and I understand based on Techs history that’s not to be expected every year, but it was your main point.

I disagree with everything you're saying about the personnel, and especially about Paul only winning 5-6 games ... that would've been as bad as only 3 of his 11 years here, which should be interpreted as there being a 73% chance that he does better than 5-6 wins ... if we do have the same personnel, they're all a year older and better and that would go along with an upgrade in talent at the QB position (which is huge, imo ... as our QB goes, we go). And, Nate Woody's first year at AppSt was also unimpressive yet every subsequent year was top 20. Same with Tenuta here, first year, we're in the 50's and then top 20'ish every year thereafter.

But, what I really want to engage with from your post is the bolded statement ... because I totally agree with you there. I actually do have that energy for Coach Collins. I have posted that in a few threads. I would really like for you to read those posts if you could find them. I don't think it's fair at all to seriously judge him for 2-3 years while he gets his culture and recruits in place. Just as it wouldn't be fair if my guy had been hired and people were to judge him while the personnel didn't fit his system. I'm not on a "fire Coach Collins" train at all. I am pulling for the guy, and there's a lot about him and especially his staff that I really like. If he can recruit top 10 classes and coaches them up in a top-10 coaching staff sort of way (all while not cheating), I'll be ecstatic and will gladly admit that choosing him was better than my original choice. I didn't post about this season at all for a long time, and when I did, it was to say that we should all be patient and cheer on the team for a couple years without any serious judgement. So, that to say that I'm truly and completely with you on that point. And, that's probably where we should leave it.

I honestly just get riled up by unfair and most often reallllly dumb criticism of the previous regime. That's what pulls these kinds of thoughts from me. I would rather it be left alone and just turn my brain off to just pull for the team. But, it's probably going to happen again, tbh. So, when I defend the option, that doesn't have to be equated with not supporting CGC.

 

[vamosjackets]

And your argument is really bad on assuming we would have some awesome squad this year in an option system.

If you’re so interested in throwing logic around, can you please explain how it makes any logical sense that the best option coach in the history of the universe would walk away from such a loaded roster? I mean logically, he would have stayed if all those things you said were true right? I mean who would walk away from a team clearly headed to another ACC championship and Orange bowl? Why would they finish their career getting embarrassed by a bad Minnesota team and not come back to coach a “loaded” team? It doesn’t make any logical sense.

Maybe, just maybe the man is as smart as you think he is and knew what this season held regardless of who was coaching them. Maybe he walked away on a winning season versus being fired after a losing season this year.

Or maybe he was just tired and humbly walked away leaving the cupboard so full for the next staff that he would be praised for his awesomeness forever and the option is the only way we can be competitive.

I’ll let you enlighten us since you’ve got the crystal ball.

First, the man had won championships and coached loaded teams before ... it wasn't like that was left on his bucket list. Second, he'd coached for 40 years. Third, he announced his retirement before the Minnesota game, so throw that part out of your post. Fourth, he didn't know who they would hire next and could've certainly left the cupboard full for the next coach had it been one of his guys. Are you enlightened?

If you think this season was going to be bad regardless of who coached them, then I would question whether you watched the last 11 years, or perhaps you have short-memory syndrome, or most likely "option-insanity". We had one "bad" season out of 11. We had 2 incredible seasons, 3 really good seasons, and 5 decent seasons.

 

[vamosjackets]

Loyalist was probably the wrong term for you. Option enthusiast, perhaps?

I think there is a lot of extreme thinking around here. Are we going to out-recruit "everyone"? No, but there are plenty of teams we should be out-recruiting, but haven't been. Nor are we going to out-scheme everyone. Recent results vs Clemson and uga bear that out.

I think the plan is get some top 25-ish classes in here, innovate with player development, and hopefully get our baseline back to what it was during the O'Leary years with the potential for a special year here and there if the stars align.

No, nope, never gonna happen. GT Admin prides itself too much in the academic glory to ever allow us to make the type of exceptions it would take to compete for the best recruits.

Our only hope is some combination of good recruiting (not great, but good) and very good coaching (both to develop the recruits we do get, and schematically) in order to compete with the big boys. We can hope that the big boys hire coaches who rely solely on the talent of their highly rated recruits without also leveraging their development and better schemes. But BOTH will be necessary for us to really win big.

@smokey_wasp and @MWBATL , I have appreciated your tone in these discussions. Probably better than my own at times.
I don't think your answers here are off base. I would agree with you (and it seems obvious) that successful college football programs require a combination of coaching/scheme and recruiting. I've done some thinking about it, and I think the difference between us is more about emphasis than philosophy. I, and the option crowd, probably put more emphasis on the coaching/scheming while not neglecting the recruiting where as you guys probably put more emphasis on the recruiting while not neglecting the coaching/scheming. I would still stand on this side of the argument because I think the approach of putting more emphasis on the coaching/scheming while not neglecting recruiting makes more sense for GEORGIA TECH. But, I will wait a few years to give CGC his shot, and will try to be supportive during that time.