Why is Thacker still employed?

[yeti92]

Is it going to be a much improved offense with the losses we’ve taken to the transfer portal and graduation?

I think it’s a much better coaching situation on offense, but unless Weinke has some magic “improved decision making” powder for Sims, it seems like we’ll be at parity or worse.

Ehh, if the surrounding cast steps up, it will make Sims look a lot better. Receivers getting open and a line holding their blocks goes a long way to making his job easier.

 

[bobongo]

Lots of wild speculation from people who are guessing and really don’t know anything about the answer to the question. I know I don’t and you don’t either.

Of course we're speculating. For myself, I was trying to elicit an answer from someone who might know more about it than I do. I think most of us are wondering how this works.

 

[lv20gt]

I'd say, based on the moves/rumors/statements there are two factors.

1) The biggest issue was determined to be the secondary which is why the two DB coaches were fired and it seems like communication/ consistent messaging was thought to be a problem which is why we hired one coach to replace them both. This is where responsibility vs cause makes a difference. As DC obviously Thacker was responsible for the whole defense. However it is possible that the actual cause of the issues in the was at the position coach level. To me that also seems a likely reason why we hired a LB coach to allow Thacker to not have his focus split between both the defense as a whole and a position group. Now, nobody here is likely to have the access to make an informed judgement on whether that was the case or not, but based on the moves I would say that was the thought.

2) The talk is that Collins, as a former DC, was going to take a more active hand even be his own DC. Even if this is the case in practice I would still expect him to have a nominal DC. This is because I imagine there are certain aspects of the DC's role that just about anyone could handle but that the HC wouldn't want to have to dedicate time towards. More organizational or structural aspects. As a HC Collins would probably not want to have to spend the time on those type of things. So even if he were making more decisions directly about things from a strategy or play calling standpoint, he'd want a DC to handle the other side of that. And if that is the case it would both make sense to keep someone who knows how Collins likes those type of things, but also make it harder to hire a quality new DC who would likely want more control.

 

[slugboy]

Ehh, if the surrounding cast steps up, it will make Sims look a lot better. Receivers getting open and a line holding their blocks goes a long way to making his job easier.

We keep focusing on the offense, and it needs to get better, but we'd have to go from about 78th (FEI) in offense to about 15th (Ole Miss or UVA) to dig out of the hole that our defense has us in. We're #112 in FEI Defense.

Just in case I'm not clear, we give up 33.5 points per game. We should score more than that to win unless we're going to do some crazy Nebraska season and win one game by ~50 and lose all the others by a total of ~50. We're only scoring 24 points per game this past season, and we lost three of our best offensive players in Mason and Gibbs and McGowan. So, if we rely on our offense to dig us out of this and score more on average than 10 more points per game, we're in for heartbreak.

ACC Scoring Offense:

Index	Team	PTS	AVG/G
1​	Pitt	580​	41.4​
2​	Wake Forest	574​	41​
3​	North Carolina	458​	35.2​
4​	Virginia	415​	34.6​
5​	Miami	409​	34.1​
6​	NC State	397​	33.1​
7​	Louisville	411​	31.6​
8​	Florida State	331​	27.6​
9​	Clemson	342​	26.3​
10​	Syracuse	299​	24.9​
11​	Boston College	296​	24.7​
12​	Georgia Tech	288​	24​
13​	Virginia Tech	308​	23.7​
14​	Duke	274​	22.8​

ACC Scoring Defense:

Index	Team	PTS	AVG/G
1​	Duke	477​	39.8​
2​	Georgia Tech	402​	33.5​
3​	North Carolina	417​	32.1​
4​	Virginia	382​	31.8​
5​	Wake Forest	404​	28.9​
6​	Miami	341​	28.4​
7​	Louisville	355​	27.3​
8​	Florida State	318​	26.5​
9​	Syracuse	316​	26.3​
10​	Virginia Tech	329​	25.3​
11​	Pitt	331​	23.6​
12​	Boston College	266​	22.2​
13​	NC State	236​	19.7​
14​	Clemson	193​	14.8​

We'd have to pick up to at least Miami-level offense to get out of the hole we're in on defense, and that just gets us with a shot at going 0.500. It a TON easier to get both to mediocre.

X is Points Per Attempt Offense. Y is Points Per Attempt Defense. Both are 2021 numbers

 

[AugustaSwarm]

If we're being honest with ourselves, why would any big name coach want to come here as the DC? It's a sink or swim year in '22 and if it doesn't work out, its all starting over with a brand new staff.

Thacker is young and I don't know much about him other than his GT resume, so the fact that he's still here tells me that CGC sees some value in him. Whether that's a good thing or a bad thing is up for debate, but it seems that CGC likes him. I'd be very surprised if we brought in a new DC at this point.

 

[cthenrys]

We keep focusing on the offense, and it needs to get better, but we'd have to go from about 78th (FEI) in offense to about 15th (Ole Miss or UVA) to dig out of the hole that our defense has us in. We're #112 in FEI Defense.

Just in case I'm not clear, we give up 33.5 points per game. We should score more than that to win unless we're going to do some crazy Nebraska season and win one game by ~50 and lose all the others by a total of ~50. We're only scoring 24 points per game this, and we lost three of our best offensive players in Mason and Gibbs and McGowan. So, if we rely on our offense to dig us out of this and score more on average than 10 more points per game, we're in for heartbreak.

​

We'd have to pick up to at least Miami-level offense to get out of the hole we're in on defense, and that just gets us with a shot at going 0.500. It a TON easier to get both to mediocre.

And this is where Collins has failed miserably. No historic transformations, no waiting 5 years for an OL to gel. He is in his own words an "elite defensive mind" and his defense has been trash. He brought in his people instead of trying retain a proven DC in Woody, and he has failed. It speaks to the veracity of his claim to be an elite defensive coach AND it really speaks to his inability to build and lead an overall coaching staff. We talk about best case / worst case scenarios and I think the worst case is a mediocre 6-6 season where the AA decides the cost benefit pays off to to keep him another year.

 

[bobongo]

If we're being honest with ourselves, why would any big name coach want to come here as the DC?

Probably few "big name" coaches would want to come here, but he doesn't have to have a big name to know how to coach. Maybe his "big name" is still in the making. We don't need a big name, we just need a good coach.

 

[Techster]

Thacker may also be interviewing for jobs it is easier to get a new job if you still have your old one. I firmly believe he'd probably be a really good FCS DC.

Honestly, and not to change topics, I'm really surprised CGC was able to land some of the hires he did given EVERYONE knows 2022 season is win or get fired for CGC and his staff. Long, Weinke, and Tillman were good to very good gets given the situation.

Long might have made a calculated risk given that he was at Tulane, but he's a good coach that can develop offensive talent. If he comes to GT, has the success here that he did at ND, and turns Sims (or any QB on our roster) into a productive and consistent QB, he's most likely a candidate to move on to another factory type job.

Tillman has always been viewed as a rising coaching talent...and it started with his time assisting at UGA. There's a reason Mel Tucker made it a point to take Tillman wherever he went. IMO, Tillman is a little light on experience as an "official" DB coach, but he's a LOT like Tashard Choice: a good coach, and a good recruiter that develops relationships with recruits and his players. Honestly, I know GT is "home", but I'm not sure I take this job if I'm Tillman considering Mel Tucker is a rising head coaching star...and just signed a huge extension which means job security.

Weinke is a bit spotty with his history. He's played at a Heisman level, and has almost a decade in the NFL. He didn't do much with UT QBs of note, and being a QB coach is why we hired him. The hope here for me is Weinke in conjunction with Long figures out how to make Sims see the entire field, and throw catchable balls.

Honestly, given how this staff is probably on the edge of getting pushed over the cliff, it wouldn't surprise me if Sims is given a shorter leash next season. Taking in an experienced QB (Gibson from Akron) over a 5 star QB like Harrison Bailey (who is rumored to really want to come here) tells me this staff is going to do what they need to next season to save their jobs. They no longer have time to wait for guys like Sims and a potential guy like Bailey to develop.

All that being said, I can understand why Thacker is still here. Unlike Long who had to swallow some pride and take a step down at Tulane to rebuild his reputation (remember, it was the off the field stuff that is rumored to have caused his break from Notre Dame), how many coordinators on the defensive side with a good reputation want to stake their careers on going with an embattled coach like CGC? I know I wouldn't. Especially if CGC is known for his defense...there has to be a lot of worry that CGC will micro manage the defensive side given his job is on the line.

Unfortunately, this type of overhaul should have happened in Year 2 or Year 3. Instead, it's happening in Year 4 when the HC will be desperate to save his job.

 

[chewybaka]

We keep focusing on the offense, and it needs to get better, but we'd have to go from about 78th (FEI) in offense to about 15th (Ole Miss or UVA) to dig out of the hole that our defense has us in. We're #112 in FEI Defense.

Just in case I'm not clear, we give up 33.5 points per game. We should score more than that to win unless we're going to do some crazy Nebraska season and win one game by ~50 and lose all the others by a total of ~50. We're only scoring 24 points per game this past season, and we lost three of our best offensive players in Mason and Gibbs and McGowan. So, if we rely on our offense to dig us out of this and score more on average than 10 more points per game, we're in for heartbreak.

ACC Scoring Offense:

Index	Team	PTS	AVG/G
1​	Pitt	580​	41.4​
2​	Wake Forest	574​	41​
3​	North Carolina	458​	35.2​
4​	Virginia	415​	34.6​
5​	Miami	409​	34.1​
6​	NC State	397​	33.1​
7​	Louisville	411​	31.6​
8​	Florida State	331​	27.6​
9​	Clemson	342​	26.3​
10​	Syracuse	299​	24.9​
11​	Boston College	296​	24.7​
12​	Georgia Tech	288​	24​
13​	Virginia Tech	308​	23.7​
14​	Duke	274​	22.8​

ACC Scoring Defense:

Index	Team	PTS	AVG/G
1​	Duke	477​	39.8​
2​	Georgia Tech	402​	33.5​
3​	North Carolina	417​	32.1​
4​	Virginia	382​	31.8​
5​	Wake Forest	404​	28.9​
6​	Miami	341​	28.4​
7​	Louisville	355​	27.3​
8​	Florida State	318​	26.5​
9​	Syracuse	316​	26.3​
10​	Virginia Tech	329​	25.3​
11​	Pitt	331​	23.6​
12​	Boston College	266​	22.2​
13​	NC State	236​	19.7​
14​	Clemson	193​	14.8​

We'd have to pick up to at least Miami-level offense to get out of the hole we're in on defense, and that just gets us with a shot at going 0.500. It a TON easier to get both to mediocre.

X is Points Per Attempt Offense. Y is Points Per Attempt Defense. Both are 2021 numbers

View attachment 11949

Nice analysis...I had not thought of it the way you have presented ...makes sense...perhaps we split the difference with more offense and better defense!

 

[TromboneJacket]

I'd say, based on the moves/rumors/statements there are two factors.

1) The biggest issue was determined to be the secondary which is why the two DB coaches were fired and it seems like communication/ consistent messaging was thought to be a problem which is why we hired one coach to replace them both. This is where responsibility vs cause makes a difference. As DC obviously Thacker was responsible for the whole defense. However it is possible that the actual cause of the issues in the was at the position coach level. To me that also seems a likely reason why we hired a LB coach to allow Thacker to not have his focus split between both the defense as a whole and a position group. Now, nobody here is likely to have the access to make an informed judgement on whether that was the case or not, but based on the moves I would say that was the thought.

2) The talk is that Collins, as a former DC, was going to take a more active hand even be his own DC. Even if this is the case in practice I would still expect him to have a nominal DC. This is because I imagine there are certain aspects of the DC's role that just about anyone could handle but that the HC wouldn't want to have to dedicate time towards. More organizational or structural aspects. As a HC Collins would probably not want to have to spend the time on those type of things. So even if he were making more decisions directly about things from a strategy or play calling standpoint, he'd want a DC to handle the other side of that. And if that is the case it would both make sense to keep someone who knows how Collins likes those type of things, but also make it harder to hire a quality new DC who would likely want more control.

You just sparked some insight in my mind! Now I think I know exactly why Thacker (barring a late dismissal) was retained but Patenaude wasn’t.

It’s because of Collins’ skills as a former defensive coordinator. He knows Thacker will listen to him and has familiarity with his terms, philosophies, and concepts. If Thacker struggles, Collins can step in and help him with fixing the defense, and Thacker will allow him the flexibility to do that as needed.

Offense, on the other hand, is a different story. While I’m sure Collins knows more about offense than you or I, he likely doesn’t have enough expertise to be an offensive coordinator. In other words, he can offer help in the same way a manager might offer help to one of his engineers: he can help with big picture types of obstacles but can’t step in and do the job himself. Therefore any offensive coordinator who works for him needs to be able to identify and fix the problems (such as play calling, blocking schemes, route combinations, fundamental techniques, etc) himself. Patenaude couldn’t do that to the level we needed, so he had to go.

Basically, the decisions of who got to keep their jobs and who had to go boiled down to whether Collins believed that the major issues could be fixed with those coaches remaining in place. The DB issues were so bad that he didn’t think Burton and/or Popovich could fix them, so they had to be let go. The same goes for the issues with QB play and the offense overall with respect to Patenaude. I hope he’s right about the defense, and I hope Chip Long is the right guy to fix the offense.

 

[orientalnc]

I'd say, based on the moves/rumors/statements there are two factors.

1) The biggest issue was determined to be the secondary which is why the two DB coaches were fired and it seems like communication/ consistent messaging was thought to be a problem which is why we hired one coach to replace them both. This is where responsibility vs cause makes a difference. As DC obviously Thacker was responsible for the whole defense. However it is possible that the actual cause of the issues in the was at the position coach level. To me that also seems a likely reason why we hired a LB coach to allow Thacker to not have his focus split between both the defense as a whole and a position group. Now, nobody here is likely to have the access to make an informed judgement on whether that was the case or not, but based on the moves I would say that was the thought.

2) The talk is that Collins, as a former DC, was going to take a more active hand even be his own DC. Even if this is the case in practice I would still expect him to have a nominal DC. This is because I imagine there are certain aspects of the DC's role that just about anyone could handle but that the HC wouldn't want to have to dedicate time towards. More organizational or structural aspects. As a HC Collins would probably not want to have to spend the time on those type of things. So even if he were making more decisions directly about things from a strategy or play calling standpoint, he'd want a DC to handle the other side of that. And if that is the case it would both make sense to keep someone who knows how Collins likes those type of things, but also make it harder to hire a quality new DC who would likely want more control.

We have some smart people on the Swarm. It seems at times they are playing like Isaac Stern while I am an old Jewish fiddler who barely remembers his Suzuki training. This is a nice post.

 

[stech81]

He is on the payroll next year (2022) regardless if he is at GT or not. May as well get some use from him as an analyst vice an on field coach.

Are you sure? this is old but the only one with more than 1 year was Key ( this is from 2019 so it could have changed )

Along with offensive line coach Brent Key’s $600,000 salary – with a two-year deal, he is the only assistant not on a one-year contract – the 10 assistants will earn $3,236,0

Georgia Tech football assistant salaries largely the same from 2019

For the second year of his tenure, Georgia Tech coach Geoff Collins kept the salaries of his 10 assistant coaches largely the same, except for raises for running backs coach Tashard Choice and defensive line coach Larry Knight that moved their pay into the same range as other assistants.

www.ajc.com

 

[Root4GT]

Are you sure? this is old but the only one with more than 1 year was Key ( this is from 2019 so it could have changed )

Along with offensive line coach Brent Key’s $600,000 salary – with a two-year deal, he is the only assistant not on a one-year contract – the 10 assistants will earn $3,236,0

Georgia Tech football assistant salaries largely the same from 2019

For the second year of his tenure, Georgia Tech coach Geoff Collins kept the salaries of his 10 assistant coaches largely the same, except for raises for running backs coach Tashard Choice and defensive line coach Larry Knight that moved their pay into the same range as other assistants.

www.ajc.com

USA today has an article on his salary but it's behind a paywall so I can't read it. On another GT message board it has been clearly stated Thacker was on a 2 year contract covering the 2021 & 2022 seasons. We will know soon enough if GT hires another coach and Thacker is still with the team in an off field capacity.

 

[JacketFan137]

Honestly, and not to change topics, I'm really surprised CGC was able to land some of the hires he did given EVERYONE knows 2022 season is win or get fired for CGC and his staff. Long, Weinke, and Tillman were good to very good gets given the situation.

Long might have made a calculated risk given that he was at Tulane, but he's a good coach that can develop offensive talent. If he comes to GT, has the success here that he did at ND, and turns Sims (or any QB on our roster) into a productive and consistent QB, he's most likely a candidate to move on to another factory type job.

Tillman has always been viewed as a rising coaching talent...and it started with his time assisting at UGA. There's a reason Mel Tucker made it a point to take Tillman wherever he went. IMO, Tillman is a little light on experience as an "official" DB coach, but he's a LOT like Tashard Choice: a good coach, and a good recruiter that develops relationships with recruits and his players. Honestly, I know GT is "home", but I'm not sure I take this job if I'm Tillman considering Mel Tucker is a rising head coaching star...and just signed a huge extension which means job security.

Weinke is a bit spotty with his history. He's played at a Heisman level, and has almost a decade in the NFL. He didn't do much with UT QBs of note, and being a QB coach is why we hired him. The hope here for me is Weinke in conjunction with Long figures out how to make Sims see the entire field, and throw catchable balls.

Honestly, given how this staff is probably on the edge of getting pushed over the cliff, it wouldn't surprise me if Sims is given a shorter leash next season. Taking in an experienced QB (Gibson from Akron) over a 5 star QB like Harrison Bailey (who is rumored to really want to come here) tells me this staff is going to do what they need to next season to save their jobs. They no longer have time to wait for guys like Sims and a potential guy like Bailey to develop.

All that being said, I can understand why Thacker is still here. Unlike Long who had to swallow some pride and take a step down at Tulane to rebuild his reputation (remember, it was the off the field stuff that is rumored to have caused his break from Notre Dame), how many coordinators on the defensive side with a good reputation want to stake their careers on going with an embattled coach like CGC? I know I wouldn't. Especially if CGC is known for his defense...there has to be a lot of worry that CGC will micro manage the defensive side given his job is on the line.

Unfortunately, this type of overhaul should have happened in Year 2 or Year 3. Instead, it's happening in Year 4 when the HC will be desperate to save his job.

bailey isnt coming

 

[awbuzz]

Nice analysis...I had not thought of it the way you have presented ...makes sense...perhaps we split the difference with more offense and better defense!

I e. Why not both!?!?

 

[AlabamaBuzz]

You just sparked some insight in my mind! Now I think I know exactly why Thacker (barring a late dismissal) was retained but Patenaude wasn’t.

It’s because of Collins’ skills as a former defensive coordinator. He knows Thacker will listen to him and has familiarity with his terms, philosophies, and concepts. If Thacker struggles, Collins can step in and help him with fixing the defense, and Thacker will allow him the flexibility to do that as needed.

Offense, on the other hand, is a different story. While I’m sure Collins knows more about offense than you or I, he likely doesn’t have enough expertise to be an offensive coordinator. In other words, he can offer help in the same way a manager might offer help to one of his engineers: he can help with big picture types of obstacles but can’t step in and do the job himself. Therefore any offensive coordinator who works for him needs to be able to identify and fix the problems (such as play calling, blocking schemes, route combinations, fundamental techniques, etc) himself. Patenaude couldn’t do that to the level we needed, so he had to go.

Basically, the decisions of who got to keep their jobs and who had to go boiled down to whether Collins believed that the major issues could be fixed with those coaches remaining in place. The DB issues were so bad that he didn’t think Burton and/or Popovich could fix them, so they had to be let go. The same goes for the issues with QB play and the offense overall with respect to Patenaude. I hope he’s right about the defense, and I hope Chip Long is the right guy to fix the offense.

Interesting, but it is extremely hard for me to believe CGC is a logical, problem-solving person. My gut (so, it is an opinion based on watching him from a distance) is that his decisions were more emotionally based. It would be difficult to let anyone go, but I believe he chose to let go the guys that due to their personality and/or his relationship with them, he thought it would be somewhat easier.

I actually hope your theory is more correct than mine, because it would mean CGC can be a critical thinker. But, I certainly don’t believe the guy that loves everyone in the locker room made the fire decisions without emotion and personal pain being significant leading factors.

 

[JacketFan137]

have they made any official updates on thacker/collins managing the defense? it seems like they’ve been so quiet

 

[MidtownJacket]

have they made any official updates on thacker/collins managing the defense? it seems like they’ve been so quiet

Nope. Thacker is still DC in title, and CGC is still likely to be calling / prepping the D more than the first few years.

 

[iceeater1969]

Nope. Thacker is still DC in title, and CGC is still likely to be calling / prepping the D more than the first few years.

Could we be moving in a slow manner - but still moving?