Who all walked on Sr. Day?

jgtengineer

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What is your basis for this schedule, just what you think should happen? The majority of the population will never know or need to know calculus, and I've never heard of any school that has their students on this fast of a math track. The brightest, hardest working students at the private high school I attended took the AP equivalent of Calc 2 as seniors, and most seniors were in precalc or statistics.

Because the truth is by slowplaying math we are delaying things and making it harder to teach. Do people need calculus itself? No, do people need the problem solving skills advanced math gives you? Absolutely. Calculus isn't hard. Especially not calc 1 and 2 when you are given a full year to learn each of them. Algebra 1 and 2 as well as geometry are simple enough to teach early. The japanese start learning calculus in their 11th grade as well as combinatorics.
Germany and japan start algebra in 7th/8th grade but they start the principals as early as 6th. We are starting to do this in california as well.
Korea starts early too but asian math principles are spread out a little different than the way we do it in course loads.

So maybe a mix of why international students seemed better prepared and my own observations.

That being said anyone that was taught common core math will be so far behind we have a lost generation there.
 

Jim Prather

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What is your basis for this schedule, just what you think should happen? The majority of the population will never know or need to know calculus, and I've never heard of any school that has their students on this fast of a math track. The brightest, hardest working students at the private high school I attended took the AP equivalent of Calc 2 as seniors, and most seniors were in precalc or statistics.
You are right, there probably aren't any students in the US on this schedule. I've taught students from Europe and Asia though, and the students on their science and math tracks are a lot closer to jg's outline than we would like to believe as a country.
 

yeti92

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You are right, there probably aren't any students in the US on this schedule. I've taught students from Europe and Asia though, and the students on their science and math tracks are a lot closer to jg's outline than we would like to believe as a country.
Idk, the info he gave about Japan and Germany in the most recent post seems to line up with what I experienced, not what he first suggested the track should be. I do recognize what I experienced is not necessarily typical, and I have no idea about common core since that wasn't a thing when I was that age.
 

jgtengineer

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Idk, the info he gave about Japan and Germany in the most recent post seems to line up with what I experienced, not what he first suggested the track should be. I do recognize what I experienced is not necessarily typical, and I have no idea about common core since that wasn't a thing when I was that age.

Japan's track is weird they start learning Derivatives in 9th and 10th grade from a theory level and proofing. Then usign them in 11th. Their 11th grade is more like calc 2.
 

cpf2001

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I would much rather teach prob/stat early in HS before bringing forward calculus. Much more universally applicable.
 

jgtengineer

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I would much rather teach prob/stat early in HS before bringing forward calculus. Much more universally applicable.
nah, in order to teach the right kind of that you need a calculus base. Non cal stat and probability analysis is just waterdown. Kinda like the non calc physics that just dances around subjects instead of actually teaching them. We should be aiming to enrich our population not maintain the status quo.
 

cpf2001

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You need calculus to invent it. You don’t need it to understand relatively basic things that would help a lot of people make much better decisions around things that involve randomness. And that’s a big big pool of things. Everything from investing to driving to … football !

The status quo right now is few understand even the basics of this stuff. Even among the population that knows calculus.

Edit: I’d also use it - and also physics - as gateway drugs to calculus instead of the other way around.
 
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Jacket05

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This is a problem with the highschool system in general. I am saying that the expectation should be that we are starting to teach calculus sophmore or junior year of highschool regardless of where you are I understand there is disparity right now and i am not faulting the kids i am faulting the educators.

We should be starting with algebra in the 6th grade, geometry should be an 8th grade course and precalc/trig should be freshmen year. Then calc 1 basically all of sophomore year and calc 2 all of junior. Senior year math should be linear algebra that way its calc 3 and diff EQ in college. We as a country do ourselves a major disservice in mathematics by slowplaying everything. Part of that is because advanced math isn't a common skillset for "education" majors who make up our teachers.
This is not the fault of the educators either but more the nater of the education system. It is because the education system does not have enough math and science minded people willing to become teachers. There are two main reasons for this. First, most math and science people do not have the skills to actually teach kids effectively. Second, the jobs available for math and science majors tend to have a starting salary out of college that is pretty close to the maximum salary cap for teachers by retirement. My sister works for a school that actually had a civil engineering graduate from Tech apply and get a math teaching position at her school and I'm pretty sure he left after a month for civil engineering job.
 

85Escape

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This is not the fault of the educators either but more the nater of the education system. It is because the education system does not have enough math and science minded people willing to become teachers. There are two main reasons for this. First, most math and science people do not have the skills to actually teach kids effectively. Second, the jobs available for math and science majors tend to have a starting salary out of college that is pretty close to the maximum salary cap for teachers by retirement. My sister works for a school that actually had a civil engineering graduate from Tech apply and get a math teaching position at her school and I'm pretty sure he left after a month for civil engineering job.
I helped out a friend and taught a Pre-Engineering Class at the Fulton County STEM Magnet school a couple of decades ago. Based on that experience, I'm not sure they could pay me enough to teach high-school!
 

4shotB

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I helped out a friend and taught a Pre-Engineering Class at the Fulton County STEM Magnet school a couple of decades ago. Based on that experience, I'm not sure they could pay me enough to teach high-school!
. My sister works for a school that actually had a civil engineering graduate from Tech apply and get a math teaching position at her school and I'm pretty sure he left after a month for civil engineering job.
As someone who has taught math/stats/economics at the HS level as a second career after leaving a career in engineering/management, this thread (both the on and off topic portions) has been interesting to me.

@85Escape - the key to enjoying this is being selective about where you work. I have taught in two schools (opposite extremes of the socioeconomic spectrum). One was a rural, poverty ridden area (think Appalachia) and the other a suburban, private school where the student lot is filled with BMW's, Audi's, Mercedes, etc. and tuition is over $20k per year. I enjoyed both. Why? The schools were small (both graduated approx. 75-100 students per year).So, you pretty much know every kid in the building and your typical class size is 12-16 students. That is what I like. I would not teach in one of the mega schools that have 2-4,000 students and a class has 30 kids in it. That may have been the environment you encountered.

@jcket05, your post speaks to another issue. The guy in your post did not leave bc of the salary. He knew what it was when he took the job. He just ran into what I believe most new teachers run into - these people (the teachers) were good students and had passion about the topics that they taught. They naturally assume that everyone else has those traits too. Well, they don't. I would venture to say every time I step into the math classroom, 90% of the students would NOT be there if given the choice. At both schools, due to seniority, I am not teaching the AP kids who love STEM and would be thrilled to go to GT. I am teaching everyone else. The skills it takes to succeed are not taught in college, whether it be in an education major OR anything else. I think my skills were developed by working in manufacturing - I spent almost 30 years around a blue collar work force who only possessed a HS diploma or equivalent. These people were obviously not interested in academis in an earlier life. But still, you had to teach and train them to perform complex tasks that in unpleasant environments where failure could have fatal implications. That is how I learned to teach. If you ask anyone else who teaches via a more traditional approach (HS to collge as an education major to teacher) they will all tell you that their training did not prepare them well at all. The emphasis was on the mundane (writing a lesson plan) and not on leading and motivation teenagers who wren't particularly interested in the subject matter. Again, as GT alums, who were god "at school" and I think default to the idea that everyone else is too.

One of the things that I think would "fix" education is the same thing that would improve a lot of other things in this country. I believe every adult in the school building should have a prerequisite of 10 years of "real world" experience. This closed lop system of going from HS to college back into the classroom is broken.

Thanks for indulging me. This is a subject that I am passionate about. Mods, recycle or move if warranted.
 

g0lftime

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Walton should have a decent shot at the NFL. He may be looking at his chances there. If he has finished his degree and is ready to go into industry, I could see him going either way. If he plays another year i hope it is with us.
 

jgtengineer

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This is not the fault of the educators either but more the nater of the education system. It is because the education system does not have enough math and science minded people willing to become teachers. There are two main reasons for this. First, most math and science people do not have the skills to actually teach kids effectively. Second, the jobs available for math and science majors tend to have a starting salary out of college that is pretty close to the maximum salary cap for teachers by retirement. My sister works for a school that actually had a civil engineering graduate from Tech apply and get a math teaching position at her school and I'm pretty sure he left after a month for civil engineering job.

There is a good amount of fault in the idea of an "education" degree that is a BA instead of BS. Meaning that people who graduate with it don't even take calc.

Honestly this is where Tech should be able to help imagien if we had a BS in Upper education that specialized in producing calc/chem/science teachers. It would instantly be a favorite among athletes that see themselves being coaches later and provide an easy path out for people who decide they don't want to be engineers but could easily fill this role.
 

iceeater1969

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There is a good amount of fault in the idea of an "education" degree that is a BA instead of BS. Meaning that people who graduate with it don't even take calc.

Honestly this is where Tech should be able to helpþ6 imagienwe if we had a BS in Upper education that specialized in producing calc/chem/science teachers. It would instantly be a favorite among athletes that see themselves being coaches later and provide an easy path out for people who decide they don't want to be engineers but could easily fill this role.
Iirc BOR says Gt is a research institution and will not offer any degree that is offered by UGA.

The prez needs to do something to give us some flxibility. hI loke your idea, because we need players to become hs coaches or ga. Perhaps we could get them jointly taught (gt, ga st, emory) sports related couses ( Injury - avoidance, diagnosus, recovery; Strength/ speed / endutance measurement, improvement, special) that give Certification not Degrees.
 

cpf2001

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Teachers get very little respect in a lot of ways beyond just pay, so no surprise that the more other higher paying options you have, the less long you stick around. Sure, you know the pay going in, but that’s different from living with it especially if your old buddies from college are getting paid twice or more times as much from day 1, like 50 vs 100k+…

The people calling the shots shouldn’t need calculus to know that if you pay peanuts you won’t be able to attract or retain talent that well.
 

jgtengineer

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Iirc BOR says Gt is a research institution and will not offer any degree that is offered by UGA.

The prez needs to do something to give us some flxibility. hI loke your idea, because we need players to become hs coaches or ga. Perhaps we could get them jointly taught (gt, ga st, emory) sports related couses ( Injury - avoidance, diagnosus, recovery; Strength/ speed / endutance measurement, improvement, special) that give Certification not Degrees.

We wouldn't be. theirs is a BA ours is a BS if we did this.
 

forensicbuzz

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This is a problem with the highschool system in general. I am saying that the expectation should be that we are starting to teach calculus sophmore or junior year of highschool regardless of where you are I understand there is disparity right now and i am not faulting the kids i am faulting the educators.

We should be starting with algebra in the 6th grade, geometry should be an 8th grade course and precalc/trig should be freshmen year. Then calc 1 basically all of sophomore year and calc 2 all of junior. Senior year math should be linear algebra that way its calc 3 and diff EQ in college. We as a country do ourselves a major disservice in mathematics by slowplaying everything. Part of that is because advanced math isn't a common skillset for "education" majors who make up our teachers.
This is how the Europeans do it. Their kids seem fine grasping the math.
 
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