When does Pastner feel heat

Connell62

Helluva Engineer
Featured Member
Messages
3,113
I think that would be blazing a new trail in coaching contract management. I can't think of examples--at least P6 examples--where a coach wasn't renewed well before their last year. So I googled it: https://www.google.com/search?q=ncaa+basketball+coach+on+last+year+of+contract.
The results are all contract extensions. The other results are going to be firings. There aren't going to be a lot of lame duck coaches without contract extensions, because it's perceived as undercutting their recruiting.
The fact that he cannot comprehend even the smallest things (such as this) are the primary reason that no one should take him seriously.

In any profession, allowing an employment contract to expire before renegotiating or extending, is just a bad look (unless you want them gone) and sends all sorts of wrong messages.

How the hell is he supposed to recruit when no one knows if he will be here or not? In other words, this is all nonsense.

Not to mention, good luck EVER attracting a quality candidate for head coach down the line when they see how you treat your own.
 

Jacketman99

Ramblin' Wreck
Messages
963
We renewed his contract before it expired. There was no reason to do that. What better options were knocking on his door?

Is the program ascending? We went 12-20 last season. Sure you could argue that’s just 1 season, but Pastner’s 6 year average would put him at 14-16, so it’s not really an outlier.

My worry with Pastner is that the one season where he made the NCAAT (my bar for a good season) was caused by 3 anomalies: 1) a forfeit in the ACCT, 2) Moses Wright going from no basketball experience to ACC POY in 3 seasons, and 3) Jose Alvarado, who is an anomaly in every way (in a good way). If the stars have to align like that for a 1st round NCAAT loss, will we ever make the dance again?

Would I fire the guy? Not necessarily, but I wouldn’t have extended him last year. I would have let his contract run out in 2023 and then decided what to do.
You obviously have no idea how college athletics works. No school in America is going to let their coach's contract expire. You effectively cut him off at his knees in recruiting. If any school came to that conclusion, the may as well go ahead and fire the guy. Pastner deserved the extension coming off an ACC championship and first NCAA tournament berth in 10 years. It's not like we broke the bank on that extension either.
 

Techster

Helluva Engineer
Messages
18,390
I think that would be blazing a new trail in coaching contract management. I can't think of examples--at least P6 examples--where a coach wasn't renewed well before their last year. So I googled it: https://www.google.com/search?q=ncaa+basketball+coach+on+last+year+of+contract.
The results are all contract extensions. The other results are going to be firings. There aren't going to be a lot of lame duck coaches without contract extensions, because it's perceived as undercutting their recruiting.

A funny and tangentially related story to this. When Bobinski was our AD and Paul Johnson's contract was down to 3 years, the media asked him why he hasn't re-upped CPJ's contract, and wouldn't that hurt CPJ's ability to recruit? Bobinski said something to the effect, "The length of contract doesn't affect recruiting...that contract narrative is made up by the media."

Fast forward a year, and our BB coach at the time was in the same situation. What did Bobinski do and say? He re-upped the BB coach and said he had to because it would affect our BB coach's ability to recruit.

Some things you just can't make up.

ASIDE: Hindsight being 20/20, we all know now that Bobinski was actively trying to replace CPJ and would have...if not for our great run in 2014 and winning the Orange Bowl.

EDIT:

Here's an article that talks about it...I was wrong though. CPJ was down to just TWO years!

 
Last edited:

JacketOff

Helluva Engineer
Messages
3,012
A funny and tangentially related story to this. When Bobinski was our AD and Paul Johnson's contract was down to 3 years, the media asked him why he hasn't re-upped CPJ's contract, and wouldn't that hurt CPJ's ability to recruit? Bobinski said something to the effect, "The length of contract doesn't affect recruiting...that contract narrative is made up by the media."

Fast forward a year, and our BB coach at the time was in the same situation. What did Bobinski do and say? He re-upped the BB coach and said he had to because it would affect our BB coach's ability to recruit.

Some things you just can't make up.

ASIDE: Hindsight being 20/20, we all know now that Bobinski was actively trying to replace CPJ and would have...if not for our great run in 2014 and winning the Orange Bowl.

EDIT:

Here's an article that talks about it...I was wrong though. CPJ was down to just TWO years!

Hmmmm sounds like there may be something to that whole recruiting narrative being made up by the media. And guess who pushes it the most? SURPRISE! It’s the coaches who get even more guaranteed money from larger buyouts. Of course coaches are going to pressure admins and schools for extensions because if they suck and get kicked to the curb, they’ll have a larger buyout waiting for them.

It’s a ****ty system and precedent that needs to end. But because there are so many pretenders who believe they’ll be competing for national prominence and titles it will always be the status quo. Another reason why college sports are a facade that will cease to exist as we know them
 

gtphd

Jolly Good Fellow
Messages
333
You obviously have no idea how college athletics works. No school in America is going to let their coach's contract expire. You effectively cut him off at his knees in recruiting. If any school came to that conclusion, the may as well go ahead and fire the guy. Pastner deserved the extension coming off an ACC championship and first NCAA tournament berth in 10 years. It's not like we broke the bank on that extension either.

“Someone disagrees with me so I just call them stupid…”.

There is absolutely 0 evidence this is true. That’s some agent with no leverage creating leverage.
 

AUFC

Helluva Engineer
Messages
2,992
Location
Atlanta
“Someone disagrees with me so I just call them stupid…”.

There is absolutely 0 evidence this is true. That’s some agent with no leverage creating leverage.
Your miss here is that you assume quality coaches have no leverage. You're okay with letting Pastner's contracts expire - what no-leverage coach do you want to replace him? Only the dregs are going to take that gig on.
 

Connell62

Helluva Engineer
Featured Member
Messages
3,113
“Someone disagrees with me so I just call them stupid…”.

There is absolutely 0 evidence this is true. That’s some agent with no leverage creating leverage.
Stop trying to be a victim. You come here spewing nonsense, 10 people point out why you're wrong, now you want to deflect.

No one called you stupid, they just said you have no idea of how college athletics work, and you are making it abundantly clear that you don't.
 

Rzunz

Jolly Good Fellow
Messages
155
ICS75. 40 guys to one girl back then. I recall “streaking” days where nerds we’re running down the street wearing only rat caps and a slide rule. Much different now I’m sure, but CJP seems to fit Ma Tech like a glove: geeky, smart, basketball junkie, friendly, and loves GT. I’m pulling for him down here in Lutz, Florida!
 

LargeFO

Helluva Engineer
Messages
3,462
A funny and tangentially related story to this. When Bobinski was our AD and Paul Johnson's contract was down to 3 years, the media asked him why he hasn't re-upped CPJ's contract, and wouldn't that hurt CPJ's ability to recruit? Bobinski said something to the effect, "The length of contract doesn't affect recruiting...that contract narrative is made up by the media."

Fast forward a year, and our BB coach at the time was in the same situation. What did Bobinski do and say? He re-upped the BB coach and said he had to because it would affect our BB coach's ability to recruit.

Some things you just can't make up.

ASIDE: Hindsight being 20/20, we all know now that Bobinski was actively trying to replace CPJ and would have...if not for our great run in 2014 and winning the Orange Bowl.

EDIT:

Here's an article that talks about it...I was wrong though. CPJ was down to just TWO years!



Man he was atrocious. I loved how CPJ referred to him as "ghost" or something since he never saw him around campus.
 

GTRX7

Helluva Engineer
Messages
1,524
Location
Atlanta
Lots of strong opinions here. I have been watching GT bball for decades and here are some of my thoughts:

Pastner's ACC record has actually been pretty good. He has had a number of above .500 ACC records which, as others have pointed out, have been surprisingly uncommon over time at GT.

Pastner's non-conference record has been really bad. We start slow every year and have 1-3 baffling losses to terrible teams (many at home). This means that, even in years where we have had very good ACC records, the team's overall record has not been great (e.g. 11-9 in the ACC and 17-14 overall in '19/'20).

Pastner's teams are generally well-coached. They tend to improve as the season goes on, and they play extremely hard and are easy to root for. Pastner's defensive switching in particular has been very impressive and kept opponents off balance.

Pastner's recruiting has been very poor. Basketball is not football. It only takes 2-3 good players per year to have a successful program. GT is in a talent hotbed of Atlanta and, unlike in football, most of our closest regional schools are not regularly or historically great in basketball. UGA in particular has been pretty much hot garbage throughout Pastner's tenure. Over the last 40 years, it has been shown that GT can and should recruit much better.

I think it is reasonable to expect GT to make the NCAA tournament close to 50% of the time and make a Sweet Sixteen or better type run once a decade or so. In that regard, Pastner's 1 NCAA appearance has not been good enough. Unfortunately, losing Moses meant we never really had a chance to make a run either.

I was very happy with our ACC Tournament Title, but lets not pretend that was an ACC Championship (which really belongs to the regular season best record). Also, it only involved winning two games, only one of which was against a good team. So, it was nice, but not some sort of defining accomplishment like an Elite Eight or regular season ACC Championship or anything like that.

In the end, for me personally, I think this is an important year. I honestly have very low expectations but hope to be surprised. If we have another ~.500 overall record without a post-season birth, I would be ready to move on. That said, I am not sure that is going to be financially possible, so I am ready to just live through a bunch more mediocre years of GT bball where we at least try hard and I hope to be surprised.
 

lv20gt

Helluva Engineer
Messages
5,586
I was very happy with our ACC Tournament Title, but lets not pretend that was an ACC Championship (which really belongs to the regular season best record)

This is incorrect. The ACC champion is defined as the winner of the tournament by the ACC bylaws.

And it would be weird to use the regular season anyways with the disparity in schedules especially during that year where games were not played due to covid.
 

ESPNjacket

Helluva Engineer
Messages
1,531
This is incorrect. The ACC champion is defined as the winner of the tournament by the ACC bylaws.

And it would be weird to use the regular season anyways with the disparity in schedules especially during that year where games were not played due to covid.
This is true. And if someone like K had won it that year it would be held up by GT's self-hating fans as proof that it took a great coach to out maneuver the crazy virus-induced schedule.

Pastner has to figure out how to get the team ready to begin seasons prepared to win games. That is the one thing he has failed to do.
 

gtphd

Jolly Good Fellow
Messages
333
Stop trying to be a victim. You come here spewing nonsense, 10 people point out why you're wrong, now you want to deflect.

No one called you stupid, they just said you have no idea of how college athletics work, and you are making it abundantly clear that you don't.

My entire argument boils down to wins matter.

The response is that it doesn’t, that its unreasonable to win at Tech and we should expect less, that he has several awards unrelated to winning, and at least he’s not Brian Gregory. Then there’s the “you don’t know what you’re talking about” and “that’s not how college sports work.”

The definition of a competition is that you want to win. I may be the only one here that understands that.
 

slugboy

Moderator
Staff member
Messages
11,725
I keep seeing this strategy of
  1. {Fire Collins/Pastner/Stansbury/Danny Hall} ->
  2. {Mystery step/Hire unknown next great coach or AD/Mike Leach wants to work here/Let's get Urban Meyer out of retirement} ->
  3. {Watch the victories follow}
where steps 2 and 3 are incredibly vague or unrealistic, especially step 2.

We are not going to hire perfect coaches and perfect ADs.
We may be able to hire better ADs or coaches than we have right now.
However, the more important strategy is to build support structures where the coaches or execs do what they're best at, someone else does what the HC or AD is terrible at, and that there's a program that makes sure each athletic group keeps improving relative to competition.

Richer AAs than us have shown that firing coaches is a lot easier than building programs, and a lot less effective.

Sometimes, coaches need to be fired, if it's a considered move where you're going to improve the program and find a better fit. Most of the time, that actually isn't the case.

If your go-to solution is "fire Pastner" instead of "get Pastner a great offensive assistant", I argue that your focus is misplaced. Especially if you don't try shoring up someone's weakness before firing them. There's a vanishingly small circle of perfect coaches.
 

MtnWasp

Helluva Engineer
Messages
1,058
I haven't seen anyone argue that Bobinski was the sharpest tool in the shed.
My entire argument boils down to wins matter.

The response is that it doesn’t, that its unreasonable to win at Tech and we should expect less, that he has several awards unrelated to winning, and at least he’s not Brian Gregory. Then there’s the “you don’t know what you’re talking about” and “that’s not how college sports work.”

The definition of a competition is that you want to win. I may be the only one here that understands that.
Of course wins matter! We all want to win. EVERY game.

But competition is a zero sum game. For every two contestants, there can only be one winner.

Commitment to excellence and dedication to winning is occurring simultaneously from both contestants. In conditions of parity, wins and losses can come down to very small factors. Domination is easily conceived. Domination is easy to want. But demanding domination in a competitive situation is not a mechanism for achieving it. Competitive domination is a statistical improbability. For the most part, domination is simply not how the world works.

The best anyone can do is execute the processes by which success is achieved, and then hope the chips fall in your favor. The question then becomes, are those processes being executed?

Your assumption is that if a team loses, then that must mean that the processes that result in success must not have been performed. But is that true? Is it possible for a coach to do the right things and still come out a loser in a situation where every competitor is also executing the processes required to have success?

A Pastner defender like me sees a coach that is doing what is required to have success. We have seen successful seasons and poor ones. The inconsistency, I would argue, is due to variables outside of operational process, for instance, injuries to Lammers and Alvarado, The Duke kid ratting-out LaBarrie over the Cheetah visit and the subsequent probation, a player like Gigiberia not panning out al all. Things like that.

Fans like to point at recruiting results. I think a huge factor here is the regional domination of the SEC. How the SEC is pulling away from the rest of the Power 5 is causing extreme turbulence throughout college athletics, and Gt finds itself directly in their wake, especially on the recruiting trail. That will be true of every single coach that gets plugged in here.

Fans can take the "Buck Stops Here" approach and simply hold a coach accountable to the bottom line. But that is not a very sophisticated way to look at it and, as often as not, will punish or reward a coach for things that were never really under his control to start with.

After seeing how Hewitt's teams played after Keener and Warren left, and how Brian Gregory's teams played, I will take and enjoy the type of basketball that Pastner's teams play 24-7, the poor season last year notwithstanding.
 
Last edited:

BeeRBee

Jolly Good Fellow
Messages
237
Pastner's non-conference record has been really bad. We start slow every year and have 1-3 baffling losses to terrible teams (many at home). This means that, even in years where we have had very good ACC records, the team's overall record has not been great (e.g. 11-9 in the ACC and 17-14 overall in '19/'20).

Pastner has to figure out how to get the team ready to begin seasons prepared to win games. That is the one thing he has failed to do.

I think this is very true. Pastner has on multiple occasions shown the ability to make in-season adjustments to maximize the talents and capabilities of his players. I don't think the staff has been great at figuring that out before the season which is a definite weakness.

Over the last 40 years, it has been shown that GT can and should recruit much better.

This is a very naive statement, because much of the last 40 years is irrelevant to what GT basketball is today and its place in the overall college basketball system. MtnWasp noted the rise of the SEC, but the academic situation is very different and the influence of AAU basketball has changed the landscape as well. While it is certainly possible that a different coach could recruit better than Pastner, I am not at all convinced that anything like Cremins or Hewitt's recruiting is realistic today.

Here's a post I made in 2017 noting some changes I saw from the Hewitt era to then:

 

gtphd

Jolly Good Fellow
Messages
333
If your go-to solution is "fire Pastner" instead of "get Pastner a great offensive assistant", I argue that your focus is misplaced. Especially if you don't try shoring up someone's weakness before firing them. There's a vanishingly small circle of perfect coaches.

Again, I'm not arguing to fire him. I would have let his contract expire then made a call. There's two parts to my argument:

1. Is the current situation acceptable? To me it's not. I don't agree that the ceiling for GT basketball is making the NCAAT once in 6 years and 0 NCAAT wins in 6 years is acceptable.
2. Can someone else do better? Sure. I don't believe that the current performance is the ceiling at GT.

If I'm the AD, I'm not willing to fire Pastner and subject us to a CBG-cost-savings-debacle, but I'm not extending Pastner with the current performance. It's not that there's a magic bullet, but you can do better and should keep searching if you can do so without financial distress.

It's like dating: You don't marry someone because they're OK. And you don't stay with someone because the next date you have might go poorly. You keep looking until you find someone that you like then you lock that person down.


A Pastner defender like me sees a coach that is doing what is required to have success. We have seen successful seasons and poor ones. The inconsistency, I would argue, is due to variables outside of operational process, for instance, injuries to Lammers and Alvarado, The Duke kid ratting-out LaBarrie over the Cheetah visit and the subsequent probation, a player like Gigiberia not panning out al all. Things like that.

This is a very naive statement, because much of the last 40 years is irrelevant to what GT basketball is today and its place in the overall college basketball system. MtnWasp noted the rise of the SEC, but the academic situation is very different and the influence of AAU basketball has changed the landscape as well. While it is certainly possible that a different coach could recruit better than Pastner, I am not at all convinced that anything like Cremins or Hewitt's recruiting is realistic today.

Is your argument that any coach would be as unsuccessful as Pastner because of exogenous factors and, therefore, we should continue with Pastner since he's the best we'll do? If that's your opinion, I respect the logic, but I disagree.

Academics are less applicable to basketball because of immediate NBA eligibility. A one-and-done can come on campus, take a minimum course load of electives, fail a bunch of them, and stay eligible for that season. Other southeast schools are improving, but they're in places like Starkville and Tuscaloosa, not Atlanta. I believe a good coach can use Geoff Collins logic to attract players to Atlanta. And unlike Geoff Collins who needs like ten 4* and 5* recruits per year to be competitive, an MBB coach only needs 1-2 studs per year. I think that's possible.

We can disagree on that point - it's fine - but that doesn't mean that one of us is irrational, doesn't understand how sports works, is an idiot, or hates GT.
 

MtnWasp

Helluva Engineer
Messages
1,058
Is your argument that any coach would be as unsuccessful as Pastner because of exogenous factors and, therefore, we should continue with Pastner since he's the best we'll do? \
No, that is not what I am driving at. My argument is that because Pastner is doing the things that need to be done to be successful, that we will see more seasons like 20 and 21 than we will see seasons like last year. Also, if there are exogenous factors that are holding the program back, then it would naturally NOT solve our losing ways by changing coaches because the next coach will be weighted down by the same factors. Instead, try to solve those problems thereby creating an environment that better supports the coach.

But if the coach continues to have 4 bad years for every two good ones, that won't work. We need the trajectory to be a favorable one. We all agree on this.
 
Top