When does Pastner feel heat

[lv20gt]

What do you expect from a Tech MBB coach?

It's entirely dependent on the situation.

Having expectations in the abstract absent of connection to what the situation is, is just a very foolish way of looking at things. And yes, by now the situation is largely determined by Pastner himself, but in year 1 it wasn't. With what we inherited it made sense to expect Pastner to return us to that NCAAT level every other year by the end of his first recruiting class. The roster was just not set up to make the NCAAT early.

Had Jose not gotten hurt early his junior year there is a good chance we would have gone dancing in years 4 and 5 (or been that level barring the sanctions). The current roster has a lot of wing talent, and experience at the 1 and 5 around it this year. Pastner will need to prove he can make it work with the group but the roster is set up to be competitive this year and should return almost the entire core going forward with a high level addition already lined up.

Could Pastner have done better? Sure, and we all wish he had, but how it has played out is certainly in the realm of realistic expectations.

 

[iopjacket]

Firing Pastner with the current financial situation at GT is ludicrous. We are likely to fire our football coach in December. Pastner is not a great coach and may never be, but he is young and learning. His teams play hard and appear to be very well motivated. Recruiting has improved. The current team appears to be competitive for this year and will continue to improve.

 

[MtnWasp]

You seem to love your no true Scotsman fallacies.

Georgia Tech is an embarrassment in basketball. Even Baghdad Bob can’t spin that. And that’s not just on the court but off the court, as well. Accepting that isn’t settling for mediocrity, it’s settling for failure.

You can complain about blue bloods and why settling in the bottom third of the ACC is somehow success, but it actually hurts GT. This is why CGC gets another year to lose and Pastner gets an extension he doesn’t deserve.

Fans that accept failure are the reason Tech is failing at sports right now. Shame on you.

This post is one season removed from hanging a banner and two consecutive upper tier finishes in the ACC for only the 4th time since joining the ACC.

Unless you back up your rhetoric with your checkbook and putting your fanny in a seat, then you're just talking.

People who resent the world because it isn't the way they want it are a dime a dozen.

 

[Connell62]

This post is one season removed from hanging a banner and two consecutive upper tier finishes in the ACC for only the 4th time since joining the ACC.

Unless you back up your rhetoric with your checkbook and putting your fanny in a seat, then you're just talking.

People who resent the world because it isn't the way they want it are a dime a dozen.

But he expects a winning conference record every year!

 

[ESPNjacket]

But he expects a winning conference record every year!

Two out of the last three aren't good enough! Let's fire the coach and start over!

Or maybe just get support the team.

 

[therealastronomer]

OK, Mrs. Pastner

Weak, just weak. Dawg fan?

 

[gtphd]

Firing Pastner with the current financial situation at GT is ludicrous. We are likely to fire our football coach in December. Pastner is not a great coach and may never be, but he is young and learning. His teams play hard and appear to be very well motivated. Recruiting has improved. The current team appears to be competitive for this year and will continue to improve.

I wasn't in favor of firing him, but we shouldn't have extended. We would let his contract run out then make the decision to extend or not. The argument that it hurts recruiting or that someone might steal him is just an agent trying to get GT to negotiate against itself.

If you think 6 seasons isn't enough time to evaluate a coach, or that one NCAA Tournament Birth* per decade is sufficient, or that a sub 0.500 winning record is the best we can do, then that's your opinion and I disagree.

Look at the Hewitt years. We fired that coach and he's universally loathed. 11 seasons. 5/11 NCAA tournament appearances. NCAAT Runner up. 0.542 win ratio. And we thought we should be doing better. That's the GT fans I miss.

And - yes - when the AD sees the fans supporting CJP by stating that we need to be patient, it reduces the pressure on him to take action. If we protested outside his office and set couches on fire (as other fans do), he'd be more likely to take action. It's a cycle:

Fans accept CJP's performance --> AD not under pressure --> (cycle starts) AD does not replace CJP --> GT continues to miss NCAAT --> Fans become apathetic and do not attend games or donate --> GT has no money --> GT cannot afford to replace CP --> (cycle continues) AD does not replace CJP

The one thing that breaks the cycle is not accepting failure, no matter how nice the coach is.




* we needed the ACC Title to make the tournament, won the ACC title after the #1 team forfeit a game to us, and still only managed a #10 seat and a first round exit with the best Tech team of the last 15 years

 

[lv20gt]

I wasn't in favor of firing him, but we shouldn't have extended. We would let his contract run out then make the decision to extend or not. The argument that it hurts recruiting or that someone might steal him is just an agent trying to get GT to negotiate against itself.

The biggest reason against doing that is it would absolutely hamstring us the next time we are looking for a coach. Not only would it send a message that performing, winning the ACC championship, wouldn't be rewarded but that the administration was willing to actively hamstring the current coach to save a small amount of money. No quality coach would want to walk in after that

Look at the Hewitt years. We fired that coach and he's universally loathed. 11 seasons. 5/11 NCAA tournament appearances. NCAAT Runner up. 0.542 win ratio. And we thought we should be doing better. That's the GT fans I miss.

And that landed us gregory and the **** show that was. You replace a coach when you can reasonably believe you'll actually benefit from doing so. When we fired Hewitt we weren't in a position to upgrade over that, yet did so anyways, likely due to the same mentality that you are demonstrating which is change for the sake of change. If we fired Pastner now, we wouldn't get an upgrade. We'd get another unproven coach at worst, and likely someone with major baggage. And if you're not going to fire him you absolutely don't just allow the contract to run out and then decide.

 

[GT11]

Two out of the last three aren't good enough! Let's fire the coach and start over!

Or maybe just get support the team.

Support the team. That would be a novel idea.

 

[Connell62]

I wasn't in favor of firing him, but we shouldn't have extended. We would let his contract run out then make the decision to extend or not. The argument that it hurts recruiting or that someone might steal him is just an agent trying to get GT to negotiate against itself.

If you think 6 seasons isn't enough time to evaluate a coach, or that one NCAA Tournament Birth* per decade is sufficient, or that a sub 0.500 winning record is the best we can do, then that's your opinion and I disagree.

Look at the Hewitt years. We fired that coach and he's universally loathed. 11 seasons. 5/11 NCAA tournament appearances. NCAAT Runner up. 0.542 win ratio. And we thought we should be doing better. That's the GT fans I miss.

And - yes - when the AD sees the fans supporting CJP by stating that we need to be patient, it reduces the pressure on him to take action. If we protested outside his office and set couches on fire (as other fans do), he'd be more likely to take action. It's a cycle:

Fans accept CJP's performance --> AD not under pressure --> (cycle starts) AD does not replace CJP --> GT continues to miss NCAAT --> Fans become apathetic and do not attend games or donate --> GT has no money --> GT cannot afford to replace CP --> (cycle continues) AD does not replace CJP

The one thing that breaks the cycle is not accepting failure, no matter how nice the coach is.




* we needed the ACC Title to make the tournament, won the ACC title after the #1 team forfeit a game to us, and still only managed a #10 seat and a first round exit with the best Tech team of the last 15 years

Either you are a troll or you are 12 years old and not capable of critical thinking. Context is important.

Paul wasn't removed because we thought 5/11 wasn't good enough, it was because he couldn't tie his shoes.

 

[MtnWasp]

If you think 6 seasons isn't enough time to evaluate a coach, or that one NCAA Tournament Birth* per decade is sufficient, or that a sub 0.500 winning record is the best we can do, then that's your opinion and I disagree.

You are correct. 6 years is enough to evaluate a coach. My evaluation is that Pastner has demonstrated clearly that he is able to get his teams to play good team basketball, he has demonstrated that he can develop players and get the team to perform at a level above their recruiting rankings.

Where I think your line of thinking differs from many here is that you are holding the coach accountable for a galaxy of factors that are entirely beyond his control. Many, for example, criticize his recruiting, but don't evaluate any outside factors beyond salesmanship that may account for such difficulties.

Last year sucked. That is fodder for the critics who want the next swing at a magic coach. But the two seasons previous to that demonstrated basketball that was a joy to watch to a seasoned fan like myself. That draws a lot of water with me.

Recruiting has seen an up-tick. Pastner IS the coach next season. Any talk about a coaching change at this point of time is sheer silliness. If we have a bounce-back season, posters like you will disappear into the woodwork, waiting for another tough season to climb out of the shadows.

 

[gtphd]

Either you are a troll or you are 12 years old and not capable of critical thinking. Context is important.

Paul wasn't removed because we thought 5/11 wasn't good enough, it was because he couldn't tie his shoes.

Ad hominem - you just love the logical fallacies (or maybe you’re a 12 year old incapable of putting together an argument)

I might as well stop debating. What I’m hearing is that failure is acceptable, we’d rather win meaningless popularity trophies then games, and anyone who wants more for the program is a troll, idiot, or incompetent.

Your opinion is clear.

 

[Steverc]

Support the team. That would be a novel idea.

The lesson from Field of Dreams is: "If you build it, they will come." You seem to believe, "If you come, they will build it."

 

[78pike]

The lesson from Field of Dreams is: "If you build it, they will come." You seem to believe, "If you come, they will build it."

You don't think a large rowdy home crowd helps the team win? You don't think ticket revenue helps the cause at all? It sure doesn't hurt. Although I question whether a few of the posters on here wouldn't go just to boo Pastner and the team at the first sign of trouble.

 

[GT11]

Two out of the last three aren't good enough! Let's fire the coach and start over!

Or maybe just get support the team.

Support the team. That would be a novel idea.

The lesson from Field of Dreams is: "If you build it, they will come." You seem to believe, "If you come, they will build it."

I attend every home game and support them. How many of our posters actually attend?

 

[gtphd]

You don't think a large rowdy home crowd helps the team win? You don't think ticket revenue helps the cause at all? It sure doesn't hurt. Although I question whether a few of the posters on here wouldn't go just to boo Pastner and the team at the first sign of trouble.

That’s the problem. If someone disagrees with you, it doesn’t make them a GT-hating incompetent dwag fan. There’s more than two sides.

 

[iopjacket]

I wasn't in favor of firing him, but we shouldn't have extended. We would let his contract run out then make the decision to extend or not. The argument that it hurts recruiting or that someone might steal him is just an agent trying to get GT to negotiate against itself.

If you think 6 seasons isn't enough time to evaluate a coach, or that one NCAA Tournament Birth* per decade is sufficient, or that a sub 0.500 winning record is the best we can do, then that's your opinion and I disagree.

Look at the Hewitt years. We fired that coach and he's universally loathed. 11 seasons. 5/11 NCAA tournament appearances. NCAAT Runner up. 0.542 win ratio. And we thought we should be doing better. That's the GT fans I miss.

And - yes - when the AD sees the fans supporting CJP by stating that we need to be patient, it reduces the pressure on him to take action. If we protested outside his office and set couches on fire (as other fans do), he'd be more likely to take action. It's a cycle:

Fans accept CJP's performance --> AD not under pressure --> (cycle starts) AD does not replace CJP --> GT continues to miss NCAAT --> Fans become apathetic and do not attend games or donate --> GT has no money --> GT cannot afford to replace CP --> (cycle continues) AD does not replace CJP

The one thing that breaks the cycle is not accepting failure, no matter how nice the coach is.




* we needed the ACC Title to make the tournament, won the ACC title after the #1 team forfeit a game to us, and still only managed a #10 seat and a first round exit with the best Tech team of the last 15 years

I think our main point of disagreement is that whether we should keep Pastner or not. Pastner’s initial contract was quite lean with Memphis still paying him. I doubt Pastner would have stayed if we didn’t renew his contract. People argue that Pastner recruits poorly. Without a contract renewal recruiting would probably be much worse.

Pastner’s program appears to be ascending. Improvement should be prudently rewarded, not punished.

 

[Connell62]

Ad hominem - you just love the logical fallacies (or maybe you’re a 12 year old incapable of putting together an argument)

I might as well stop debating. What I’m hearing is that failure is acceptable, we’d rather win meaningless popularity trophies then games, and anyone who wants more for the program is a troll, idiot, or incompetent.

Your opinion is clear.

YES!

 

[gtphd]

I think our main point of disagreement is that whether we should keep Pastner or not. Pastner’s initial contract was quite lean with Memphis still paying him. I doubt Pastner would have stayed if we didn’t renew his contract.

We renewed his contract before it expired. There was no reason to do that. What better options were knocking on his door?

Is the program ascending? We went 12-20 last season. Sure you could argue that’s just 1 season, but Pastner’s 6 year average would put him at 14-16, so it’s not really an outlier.

My worry with Pastner is that the one season where he made the NCAAT (my bar for a good season) was caused by 3 anomalies: 1) a forfeit in the ACCT, 2) Moses Wright going from no basketball experience to ACC POY in 3 seasons, and 3) Jose Alvarado, who is an anomaly in every way (in a good way). If the stars have to align like that for a 1st round NCAAT loss, will we ever make the dance again?

Would I fire the guy? Not necessarily, but I wouldn’t have extended him last year. I would have let his contract run out in 2023 and then decided what to do.

 

[slugboy]

We renewed his contract before it expired. There was no reason to do that. What better options were knocking on his door?

Is the program ascending? We went 12-20 last season. Sure you could argue that’s just 1 season, but Pastner’s 6 year average would put him at 14-16, so it’s not really an outlier.

My worry with Pastner is that the one season where he made the NCAAT (my bar for a good season) was caused by 3 anomalies: 1) a forfeit in the ACCT, 2) Moses Wright going from no basketball experience to ACC POY in 3 seasons, and 3) Jose Alvarado, who is an anomaly in every way (in a good way). If the stars have to align like that for a 1st round NCAAT loss, will we ever make the dance again?

Would I fire the guy? Not necessarily, but I wouldn’t have extended him last year. I would have let his contract run out in 2023 and then decided what to do.

I think that would be blazing a new trail in coaching contract management. I can't think of examples--at least P6 examples--where a coach wasn't renewed well before their last year. So I googled it: https://www.google.com/search?q=ncaa+basketball+coach+on+last+year+of+contract.
The results are all contract extensions. The other results are going to be firings. There aren't going to be a lot of lame duck coaches without contract extensions, because it's perceived as undercutting their recruiting.