What is "White"

[MountainBuzzMan]

I have been thinking about this question for a while. I thought it could be an interesting topic here.

I have had a few incidents over the last 6 months that got me thinking about this. I was in a park running a few months ago and I jogged up to a "black" couple in the path. As I passed them the lady said loud enough so that I would hear here "I hate white people" . My first thought was wow that lady is a blatant raciest. As I ran, I started thinking about how truly awful she was, simplifying people down to only skin color just so she could easily categorize and focus her raciest hate, even though she knows nothing about me.

I never considered myself a "white" person. My father is 100% German so I have German tendencies, from food to the raw engineer mind that is so pervasive among Germans. I travel to Germany a lot on business and I am regularly mistaken to be a native German.

But I grew up in complete poverty in the Appalachian mountains of North Carolina. So I also have a strong affinity for the Appalachian people as well as Cherokees who were my neighbors. Again not "white"

Genetically my family is very mixed from many countries.

Should I ignore all of that and hate myself because I am labeled "white"?

 

[MountainBuzzMan]

As I mentioned, growing up we were dirt poor. Grew our own food or we had nothing to eat, the house did not have insulation, so winters were brutally cold. Worked a neighbors tobacco allotment for extra spending money. I worked my butt off to pull myself out of that poverty. I payed my way through community college waiting tables and then transferred to Tech. I am very proud of what I was able to do and the doors that Tech has opened for me because of my degree. My wife and I worked so hard for the past 30 years to give our children a life that we were never able to have.

My oldest daughter was able to get into Tech and I was one proud dad. As she got close to graduation, she was coming into her own and forming her own opinions. One day she told my wife and I that we did not know how lucky we were due to our "white" privilege.

I have a thick skin and really don't care what people say, except for family and close friends. She does not know it but that was the most insulted I had ever been. She just casually dismissed the decades of hard work and accomplishments that my wife and I went through to improve our lives and theirs all due to the color of our skin.

So what is "white"? I don't feel "white" and I certainly don't feel privileged. Does that make me a bad person?

 

[Deleted member 2897]

As I mentioned, growing up we were dirt poor. Grew our own food or we had nothing to eat, the house did not have insulation, so winters were brutally cold. Worked a neighbors tobacco allotment for extra spending money. I worked my butt off to pull myself out of that poverty. I payed my way through community college waiting tables and then transferred to Tech. I am very proud of what I was able to do and the doors that Tech has opened for me because of my degree. My wife and I worked so hard for the past 30 years to give our children a life that we were never able to have.

My oldest daughter was able to get into Tech and I was one proud dad. As she got close to graduation, she was coming into her own and forming her own opinions. One day she told my wife and I that we did not know how lucky we were due to our "white" privilege.

I have a thick skin and really don't care what people say, except for family and close friends. She does not know it but that was the most insulted I had ever been. She just casually dismissed the decades of hard work and accomplishments that my wife and I went through to improve our lives and theirs all due to the color of our skin.

So what is "white"? I don't feel "white" and I certainly don't feel privileged. Does that make me a bad person?

Maybe she said she hates “right” people - who think everything they do is perfect all the time and youve blown everything way out of proportion.

 

[MountainBuzzMan]

Maybe she said she hates “right” people - who think everything they do is perfect all the time and youve blown everything way out of proportion.

She did vote for Clinton, so you may be on to something.

 

[AE 87]

Should I ignore all of that and hate myself because I am labeled "white"?

Stimmt

 

[Whiskey_Clear]

@MountainBuzzMan

Yes, that does make you a bad person.....to a leftist anyway. Regardless of your own personal story. Because in their eyes individuals matter less than “tribes.”

 

[LibertyTurns]

She just casually dismissed the decades of hard work and accomplishments that my wife and I went through to improve our lives and theirs all due to the color of our skin.

So what is "white"? I don't feel "white" and I certainly don't feel privileged. Does that make me a bad person?

I’ll bash the Liberals incessantly on here but it comes down to this:

Liberals believe that your accomplishments are predominantly due to government assistance and inherent advantages or disadvantages of the system that you received by virtue of your social position- race, income level, etc. They attribute your personal outcome to the system- if you succeeded than you had gained unfair advantages over the disadvantaged and were not subjected to the disadvantages as much or at all. Liberals believe the system is inherently biased & use the data to support their position. They do not believe you really earned anything.

Conservatives believe the system is inherently just & advantages one would gain thru government assistance need to be eliminated unless they’re providing the vast majority as much benefit as everyone else. We balk at suggestions that our hard work, dedication, prudent lifestyles, etc are not the real determiners of success. We cringe when someone tells us the 16 hr days we put in didn’t alter the outcome & it was really just some government handout that got us on top.

It’s really a huge philosophical divide that will probably never be breached.

 

[MWBATL]

Interesting that no left leaning folks comment in a thread like this one.

Just as ai NEVER hear any of our friends on the left condemn ANTIFA for their brownshirt behavior all over our country, but most recently for harrassing conservatives trying to eat in a restaurant.

Why is that? It would make me think they are more balanced if they chimed in with outrage when poor behavior occurs on their side of the spectrum, et somehow they don't. Then they call us drones???????

 

[Deleted member 2897]

Interesting that no left leaning folks comment in a thread like this one.

Just as ai NEVER hear any of our friends on the left condemn ANTIFA for their brownshirt behavior all over our country, but most recently for harrassing conservatives trying to eat in a restaurant.

Why is that? It would make me think they are more balanced if they chimed in with outrage when poor behavior occurs on their side of the spectrum, et somehow they don't. Then they call us drones???????

I dunno, for some reason it doesn’t bother me when I hear this. Maybe it’s my own bias. But when I hear that someone said that, my stereotyped response is that they feel that way because of how they themselves and their family and friends have been treated. Heavy handed policing, stares, police following them around stores. Their grandparents lived through Jim Crow. I realize that shows my own bias, but that’s my first feeling - sadness.

 

[takethepoints]

As I always say, I normally leave this place to argue on it's own. But …

On this, see:



Listen to Baldwin, then listen to Buckley' response. Bwelbo is right and Baldwin tells us all about it. Buckley's complete tone-deafness on this is revealing of why black folks in general don't take conservatives seriously on race questions. Well, that and seeing lots of black folks murdered on film …

Btw, it would be nice if we saw this level of debate in American colleges, but the tradition isn't there. Too bad.

 

[Jophish17]

The couple in the park are probably bad people. Every race has people like that. I married a woman from another race, and though there were people in my family whom I thought wouldn't approve, the biggest resistance actually came from her parents. Go figure.

My oldest daughter was able to get into Tech and I was one proud dad. As she got close to graduation, she was coming into her own and forming her own opinions. One day she told my wife and I that we did not know how lucky we were due to our "white" privilege.

I have a thick skin and really don't care what people say, except for family and close friends. She does not know it but that was the most insulted I had ever been. She just casually dismissed the decades of hard work and accomplishments that my wife and I went through to improve our lives and theirs all due to the color of our skin.

So what is "white"? I don't feel "white" and I certainly don't feel privileged. Does that make me a bad person?

I understand what you see and feel. I think the concept of white privilege, in this case, would be that it was still easier for you as a white make to make that social-economic progress than it would have been for a non-white person who may not have had the same opportunities or outcomes.

Ex: routine traffic stop as a teenager. Two kids from different races but otherwise identical socio-economic background have been partying. White kid just gets a warning or ticket, but the black kids car is searched (because minorities are subject to more searches) and the police find trace amounts of marijuana. At that moment, college applications (a degree is the path to the middle class) just became more difficult for the black kid. Even if both kids were in possession the prejudices against the black kid resulted in a different outcome. That's how one could say white privilege could have "assisted" an otherwise hard-working white person.

 

[MountainBuzzMan]

The one thing that struck me with the "black" couple was they had very light skin. I would not be surprised if they had more European ancestry than African ancestry. Yet me as a "white" man needed to be hated. Me, a "white" man who had great grandmother who was black. My grandfather was one of two men who I respect the most. His business skills, work ethic and never letting things get him down never ceased to amaze me. He told me it was his mother who always pushed him to do better and make something of himself. It was my grandfather who kept pushing me to make something of myself, just like his mother had pushed him. So my black great grandmother was ultimately instrumental in me bettering myself through my grandfather. Yet, I don't know how easy I had it due to my "white" privileged. (sarcasm)

Basically the main point here is the pointless racism and political divisions need to stop. We are not "black" or "white" or "whatever". We are Americans and we are stuck with each other, like it or not. We are a genetically diverse and mixed population and this is what makes us great. Our current internal strife is keeping us from reaching our full potential.

 

[MountainBuzzMan]

The couple in the park are probably bad people. Every race has people like that. I married a woman from another race, and though there were people in my family whom I thought wouldn't approve, the biggest resistance actually came from her parents. Go figure.


I understand what you see and feel. I think the concept of white privilege, in this case, would be that it was still easier for you as a white make to make that social-economic progress than it would have been for a non-white person who may not have had the same opportunities or outcomes.

Ex: routine traffic stop as a teenager. Two kids from different races but otherwise identical socio-economic background have been partying. White kid just gets a warning or ticket, but the black kids car is searched (because minorities are subject to more searches) and the police find trace amounts of marijuana. At that moment, college applications (a degree is the path to the middle class) just became more difficult for the black kid. Even if both kids were in possession the prejudices against the black kid resulted in a different outcome. That's how one could say white privilege could have "assisted" an otherwise hard-working white person.

It is not just race. Growing up deep in the mountains gave me an extremely strong accent, an Appalachian mountain accent is bit different from a southern accent and in its pure form is nearly indecipherable to outsiders. That accent has typically been characterized as being far less intelligent. You get characterized as dumb and pigeon holed.

But so what, life is not fair and it never will be. We are in a country that has more opportunities than any other and it only takes hard work, determination and making smart decisions.

 

[Deleted member 2897]

If you happen upon them again, I would encourage you to stop and ask questions of them. We’re doing a lot of guessing without actually asking the people what they actually think.

I’ve asked a guy at my church I know about his experiences and in one example he was followed around a hospital by a security guard (he was in a business suit). He had heard his niece was working there and had permission to be where he was. He finally confronted the cop and said “come on man” and the guy left him alone. He has a son whom he’s spoken with several times about how to interact with police.

In my experience, these sorts of scenarios, on top of the long history we are all aware of, lead to these sorts of feelings with some people.

One of my good friends runs a small business and he texted me one time a list of job applicants’ names, saying “guess which order he’s picking for call backs”. This stuff is real man. It may not permeate white society much because we all live in our own bubbles and don’t see it. But I think there are a lot of people who just feel like they’re suffocating going through life and are tired of it.

 

[MountainBuzzMan]

One of the bigger problems is like waves crashing onto a wall and bouncing back. 10-15 years ago, most of the blatant raciest "white" people I knew were older and would eventually die out. But now that there is so much overt and blatant racism from the "black" population, it is creating new generations of "white" raciest people. Those scenes in Charlotte sickened me. So many young raciest "white" people out there. I had hoped that the older ones would die out.

Now each side is reinforcing the other and creating new generations of raciest people. Like waves bouncing off the wall, we are in a positive feedback loop. Had MLK's vision continued to be followed we would be winding down all this raciest crap. I would find it hard to believe that he would ever condone the current blatant racism among the "black" population today.

 

[LibertyTurns]

But so what, life is not fair and it never will be. We are in a country that has more opportunities than any other and it only takes hard work, determination and making smart decisions.

There is no guarantee that hard work results in a good outcome & that’s what’s infuriating to some. They want a guaranteed outcome & that just doesn’t exist in life. Sometimes you work hard & it turns out worse than if you put in little effort at all, but that’s the beauty of our capitalist society.

I listened to the debate @takethepoints posted. I’m a big Buckley fan, but this was a horrible rebuttal except for one thing & that was the question of what is America to do. It’s a problem that lingers to this day.

@Jophish17 has great points that in essence point towards we’ve moved the bar from blatant outright discrimination to more discrete versions. Progress there, but obviously not enough & the impact of lower grade actions can have significant effects on longer term outcomes.

I guess the big questions are that in 40 years how much better will we be than we are today & what of what we’re currently doing is really not being helpful.

 

[Milwaukee]

She's a pos, I wouldn't overthink it.

 

[MountainBuzzMan]

She's a pos, I wouldn't overthink it.

I was just using it as an example mixed in with a bit of my history to see how this conversation would go. I was over it as soon as it happened. But it did get me to start wondering what is "white" since I have African ancestry? What is an American? What is "black" ? Where are we headed as a country? As liberty pointed out, what will things look like in 40 years?

There are issues with our society that will take generations to fix if we start working on it now. Sitting back and making excuses about how X or Y is disadvantaged is a crock. We all know how society is setup for the next 20 years or so. Recognize and work within it to make it better in general and on a personal level. Stop creating more raciest people.

I had to really work on my accent and a lot of other things so I could fit in to a professional mainstream environment. Yes I feral out when I head back to NC. Other "disadvantage" people can do the same thing. Life is not fair, but we as Americans have opportunities that no other country can offer. Take advantage of these opportunities.

 

[Milwaukee]

Yea I know what you're saying.

 

[TampaBuzz]

This is a terrific conversation. Thanks for raising the question. I certainly agree that blatant and obvious racism is much less prevelant today than in the past - but it is still there is more subtle and devious ways. My wife is from Venezuela and sometimes struggles to find the right words to use in english. As MaintainBuzzMan described, some white and black people think she is stupid and talk down to her because her english is not as far advanced as a native.