What If

vamosjackets

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Look, CCG as a man was not the issue. What the issue was is he tried to run a pro style offense at Tech. For all we would wish we will never recruit a QB and enough players to do this. Fact is there are not many college teams that can succeed running a pro style. What CPJs offense does is take what we can get and flip the tables. His principles of offense are not new or old, it is to get numbers and block. What does help Tech is the pace of the offense keeps our defense off the field and as I have pointed out before, that is the weakness of Tech. We can not recruit D-lineman like other schools because fact is....the position does not require nor have smart kids.
I agree with two-thirds of your argument. I agree that CPJ is great and his offense brings an inherent advantage. I also agree that this is definitely better for GT when recruiting is an issue (as it normally has been). But, what if the CCG-Giff Smith GT program actually recruited competitively with the factories (ala Stanford). This was just beginning to happen, starting in '07, then CCG was gone in '08 and CPJ reaped the benefits of the '07 recruiting - an ACC championship in '09. IF the recruiting takes a jump up, which I think it had done, then I think the offense would've been good. The offense in '06 - the ACC-CG year was actually good (until the last 3 games - UNC, Ugag, WF) - it was tops in the ACC - and that was with CPN.
 

vamosjackets

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I appreciate you and your loyalty to a good man who gave you the right to wear the uni.

However, Nix was on our sideline too long, even if it was CCG's offense. The comparison between O under Chan and D under Paul is legit imo, but our overall results has been better under Paul.
I would not disagree that CPJ has been better overall than CCG's first 6 years. What I'm questioning is whether CCG's future could've been comparable to CPJ, and my arguments for believing it could've been are the significant change in culture and recruiting and that all we needed to fix was one position and we have a top 10 team (recruiting and coaching had a great chance to fix it).

I'm also not sure Nix was destined to fail here. He took the reigns in '06 which happened to be our best year offensively (and Reggie's senior year) - we were at the top of the conference that year and went to the ACC-CG. He left for Miami the next year. What was that next guy's name?? I remember - John Bond. Not sure what he could've done with a second year which would be Taylor Bennett's senior year.
 

AE 87

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I would not disagree that CPJ has been better overall than CCG's first 6 years. What I'm questioning is whether CCG's future could've been comparable to CPJ, and my arguments for believing it could've been are the significant change in culture and recruiting and that all we needed to fix was one position and we have a top 10 team (recruiting and coaching had a great chance to fix it).

I'm also not sure Nix was destined to fail here. He took the reigns in '06 which happened to be our best year offensively (and Reggie's senior year) - we were at the top of the conference that year and went to the ACC-CG. He left for Miami the next year. What was that next guy's name?? I remember - John Bond. Not sure what he could've done with a second year which would be Taylor Bennett's senior year.

I'm pretty sure Nix was OC starting in 03.
 

northgajacket

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I remember the confidence I had that Bill would keep GT playing at the level they did under Bobby Ross but was badly disappointed very quickly:banghead: That's what GT gets for hiring someone who was an assistant at UGAG:vomit:

To be fair he was an assistant at Tech before uga. In all honesty I never understood why they hired him, looking back at his record he only had one great season.
 

vamosjackets

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I'm pretty sure Nix was OC starting in 03.
My memory is fading a bit, but I am sure of this: that Nix was actually only given full control (at least 90% control with CCG giving input) in the '06 season. He was allowed to be called OC a couple years prior but was not given control because CCG felt he wasn't ready. He did feel that he was ready in '06, and that proved to be a very good decision for the most part.

What I don't remember well is exactly what year he may have been given the OC title. I know he started out as RB coach with Bill O'brien as OC/QB's that first year, then moved to QB coach (Modkins went to RB's). I don't believe CPN was given the OC name that first year he was QB coach, I believe CCG explicitly named himself OC and made it a point that the offense would be his. I'm remembering now that CPN was only in charge of 2-minute situations in '05 (remember the 4th down throw-away). Or, was that '04? Which was the one where we had it at the end at home, ready to beat the top 10, SEC champ, Shockley-led Ugag - Reggie had led us down to the goalline to win at the end only to throw a pick in the endzone on 1st down? First year wasn't close (51-7), second year wasn't close either, but a little better. All of the following years were extremely close, one-score games.
Either way, the offense was not put firmly in Nix's hands until '06 - a very good offensive year for most of the year until the end - this is what led Randy Shannon to want Nix down in Miami. There would be media records out there stating this, but I'm doubtful I could find them.
 

Sideways

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It is sometimes the things that happen that can change everything. What if, in 2007 Calvin Johnson does not declare for the draft and comes back his senior year. We would have him Bey Bey, Tashard, Dwyer, a pretty good defense and probably Nesbitt. then let's say we win the Coastal. Well, Gailey would not have been fired and we would not have CPJ as our coach. We would continue on to languish After 2008 and would not have the success. we have.

I happen to think CPJ is one of the best coaches we have ever had. Of course I did not see Heisman, Alexander, or Dodd, but I have seen all the rest.

Think about this: from sometime after the turn of the century to 1967, Georgia Tech had only 3 coaches the aforementioned Heisman, Alexander, and Dodd. That is truly amazing and probably not matched by any other college football team in history. Coach Johnson is primed to be spoken of in the same hushed tones that are reserved for those three immortals.
 

Sideways

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Those years bothered me more than 1980-1983 did because I knew that GT was in bad shape In the early 80s and had to be rebuilt while the 2002-2005 teams had the talent to be much better.

You think that's bad? In the late 1970s, Florida was coached by Doug Dickey who had a team one year that won one game and had 7 or more players drafted to the NFL. Talk about underachieving!
 

Sideways

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I'm an admitted CCG apologist. I love CPJ and think DRad knocked that hire out of the park. I was very disappointed with CCG's firing, and hiring CPJ was one of the few hires that I could get on board with. Feel very fortunate that GT was fortunate enough to get CPJ as our coach. CCG was my coach, and I respect him greatly for both on the field stuff and off the field stuff.

Anyway, here's my rationale for sticking with CCG. He had JUST turned around recruiting in '07 and then you're going to fire him the next year. He didn't even get a chance to coach the guys who made the best class in GT history. He had made 2 key decisions - 1 to get rid of the recruiting coordinator (and special teams coach) and 2 to hire Giff Smith, both extremely significant moves. There was going to be a big payoff for that no matter who our future coach was. So, imagine GT with 2007 classes year after year from then on because that's what it had become - the culture had changed. The other big piece is that CCG had 2 out of 3 major categories nailed - defense and the running game - we were top 20 in defense every year and led the ACC in rushing (or top 3) every year. ALL we needed was improvement at ONE position (we all know what it is, no need to say it). So, pull a Dabo and keep hiring coaches until you find the right guy (in this case OC/QB coach), but don't rip out the whole thing when it was almost there. The uga games in '06 and '07 were the most asinine games ever - the UT game this year being in that same vein. We dominated them on the field and somehow lose (both had referee calls playing huge roles). I actually think Taylor Bennett was starting to play strong and could've been pretty darn good as a senior (keeping the same OC - forgot his name - the guy after Coach Nix), but what would've been very interesting to see is how either Josh Nesbitt or Steven Threet were going to totally change the outlook of the position. So, again, imagine GT with CJT keeping top 20 defenses, Choice and Dwyer (Dwyer for the next 3 years) making the running game even better. We had a very good OL coach in Coach D'Allesandris and were going to be better there as well through stronger recruiting. In your scenario, adding Calvin for that last year. Improving the QB play significantly. And, top 15 recruiting classes. I don't feel unjustified to say that we would've seen comparable success to what CPJ has brought here. I know that view may be contrarian to this board because people had their minds made up (for them?) on CCG. People also felt that way about Frank Beamer his first 6 years also right before he turned it around and became national title contenders. All he needed was a quarterback ... that's all we needed too.

It's funny how getting a really good quarterback makes geniuses out of college football coaches. Who knew?
 
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I agree with two-thirds of your argument. I agree that CPJ is great and his offense brings an inherent advantage. I also agree that this is definitely better for GT when recruiting is an issue (as it normally has been). But, what if the CCG-Giff Smith GT program actually recruited competitively with the factories (ala Stanford). This was just beginning to happen, starting in '07, then CCG was gone in '08 and CPJ reaped the benefits of the '07 recruiting - an ACC championship in '09. IF the recruiting takes a jump up, which I think it had done, then I think the offense would've been good. The offense in '06 - the ACC-CG year was actually good (until the last 3 games - UNC, Ugag, WF) - it was tops in the ACC - and that was with CPN.


Here is the difference, yep in 2009 CPJ reaped what that class was.....but in 2014 he did it again with his own. That is what has been missing. In my lifetime we have had no coach in 9 years with 2 11 win seasons, 2 9 win seasons, and an 8 win season.
 

Sideways

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I would not disagree that CPJ has been better overall than CCG's first 6 years. What I'm questioning is whether CCG's future could've been comparable to CPJ, and my arguments for believing it could've been are the significant change in culture and recruiting and that all we needed to fix was one position and we have a top 10 team (recruiting and coaching had a great chance to fix it).

I'm also not sure Nix was destined to fail here. He took the reigns in '06 which happened to be our best year offensively (and Reggie's senior year) - we were at the top of the conference that year and went to the ACC-CG. He left for Miami the next year. What was that next guy's name?? I remember - John Bond. Not sure what he could've done with a second year which would be Taylor Bennett's senior year.

Well, somebody was impressed with Coach Nix. Randy Shannon thought so much of him that he hired him away from Tech because he though that Coach Nix's offense was creative and difficult to defend against. Make of that what you will. I see now that you did mention that. My bad.
 

AE 87

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My memory is fading a bit, but I am sure of this: that Nix was actually only given full control (at least 90% control with CCG giving input) in the '06 season. He was allowed to be called OC a couple years prior but was not given control because CCG felt he wasn't ready. He did feel that he was ready in '06, and that proved to be a very good decision for the most part.

What I don't remember well is exactly what year he may have been given the OC title. I know he started out as RB coach with Bill O'brien as OC/QB's that first year, then moved to QB coach (Modkins went to RB's). I don't believe CPN was given the OC name that first year he was QB coach, I believe CCG explicitly named himself OC and made it a point that the offense would be his. I'm remembering now that CPN was only in charge of 2-minute situations in '05 (remember the 4th down throw-away). Or, was that '04? Which was the one where we had it at the end at home, ready to beat the top 10, SEC champ, Shockley-led Ugag - Reggie had led us down to the goalline to win at the end only to throw a pick in the endzone on 1st down? First year wasn't close (51-7), second year wasn't close either, but a little better. All of the following years were extremely close, one-score games.
Either way, the offense was not put firmly in Nix's hands until '06 - a very good offensive year for most of the year until the end - this is what led Randy Shannon to want Nix down in Miami. There would be media records out there stating this, but I'm doubtful I could find them.

I appreciate you and the thoroughness of your answer. However, I'm confused by your logic.
You seem to be saying that Nix was OC in name only from 2003-2005, given "full control" in 2006. That seems to make the case against ccg stronger. Nix not having more time.
 

MikeJackets1967

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You think that's bad? In the late 1970s, Florida was coached by Doug Dickey who had a team one year that won one game and had 7 or more players drafted to the NFL. Talk about underachieving!
Doug left nothing for Charlie Pell in 1979 and the Gayters went 0-10-1 with the tie being a 7-7 tie with Georgia Tech in Grant Field. Doug's worst year at Florida was 1971 when the Gators went 3-8 his second worst was 4-7 in his last season in 1978.
 

Sideways

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Doug left nothing for Charlie Pell in 1979 and the Gayters went 0-10-1 with the tie being a 7-7 tie with Georgia Tech in Grant Field. Doug's worst year at Florida was 1971 when the Gators went 3-8 his second worst was 4-7 in his last season in 1978.

Yep you are right it was 1978 I was thinking about. The mere mention of his name is enough to send a friend who is a Florida alumnus into a rage. According to him, Doug managed to squander more talent than any Gator coach in history except maybe Ron Zook. He came back to Florida Field one time as the visiting AD at Tennessee and when his name was announced the entire stadium erupted in boos.
 

MikeJackets1967

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Yep you are right it was 1978 I was thinking about. The mere mention of his name is enough to send a friend who is a Florida alumnus into a rage. According to him, Doug managed to squander more talent than any Gator coach in history except maybe Ron Zook. He came back to Florida Field one time as the visiting AD at Tennessee and when his name was announced the entire stadium erupted in boos.
In 1977 someone burned DUMP DOUG in the astroturf at Florida Field after Florida went 6-4-1.
 
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Too bad Donnie Davis had to play for Bill Lewis:vomit: I wish Georgia Tech could have recruited Heath Shuler and Donnie Davis had gone to Tennessee. Donnie had beaten Heath in the North Carolina High School Championship game.
That should be the QB mentioned, but he isn't unfortunately. The POS that works at four letter network in my humble opinion should never be welcomed on campus for any reason. Stick his arse on I75/85 split.
 
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