What if CPJ got three sheets to the wind and...

TheGridironGeek

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(Disclaimer: The Flexbone from under center is a perfect offense for Georgia Tech. Also, in my opinion, it is aesthetically the most artistic and exciting offense in football.)

I've been wanting to posit this to the board for a while, but now in mid-offseason it seems like the time. I've always thought that the Pistol snap could and should work at GT, but I understand why it was a failure with Vad Lee (and it wasn't entirely Vad's fault).

Maybe it was the one time CPJ has let outside influences get to him. The GT Pistol formation looked an awful lot like some of the Spread, Zone-Read teams run, like Oklahoma State. I was actually disappointed at the time to see CPJ using the Diamond backfield. It looked cool, but was it missing the real benefit of having the QB behind the LOS in the first place?

Different blocking, slower ball-handling -- it threw the offense out of rhythm. A big football no-no is breaking the Red Blaik Rule -- singleness of purpose.

But if HS ball can be a lab for college (like college can be a lab for the NFL), I submit that in the Midwest, Muskegon is currently setting up franchises. I mean, a coach will be dating a gal whose brother used to coach at Muskegon, and the Big Red coaching staff will walk him through exactly how to install their system at his program. Here in STL where coaches are less connected, there's lots of cute imitations too.

But Muskegon runs power. Fullback belly. Man blocking. Their offense IS the Flexbone, it just puts the QB in a better position to throw and uses hybrid WR/A-backs. Really good defenses can get more lateral momentum and stuff the B back when they want to, but then they're cutting their own throat because the passing game just annihilates them.

The Reds have an aggressive passing game, by that I mean always looking to break the big play, whether routes are short or deep...in a way that reminds me of the GT passing game because sometimes the "timing" for a pass is throw it as soon as you accurately can.

All this to say a true Pistol-Flex series of plays would not actually change the concept or rhythm of the offense in general. I would love to see Justin Thomas get a few snaps against a 'D that was even more spread-out and off-balance due to the passing threat and the B-back looping from hash to hash.

But it would need to be genuine, an extension of the Flexbone instead of some Urban Meyer-influenced stuff you put in to appease young coaches or your QB(?).

The potential problem could be from a game-management POV, down & distance. A Muskegon-offense team will often run the B-back up the middle 6 plays in a row for 11 yards, then spring the outside stuff for 3 touchdowns in 10 minutes. The Jackets can't afford that luxury. CPJ feels that the program's best chance is to hog the football and beat teams the old-fashioned way.

But a 3-and-out problem also might be avoided with smart use of a Pistol series.

Any thoughts appreciated -- Lord hope there's none of those "No. Please, just no" posts, haha.
 

thwgjacket

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With all new skill position starters I'd rather stay away from any new formations, just for the sake of being something different. However, if our D is much better than last year I would like to see some no huddle if our O is really in rhythm. Those are two huge if's though. In the end I'd stick with the old adage, "If it ain't broke, don't fix it."
 

Skeptic

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With all new skill position starters I'd rather stay away from any new formations, just for the sake of being something different. However, if our D is much better than last year I would like to see some no huddle if our O is really in rhythm. Those are two huge if's though. In the end I'd stick with the old adage, "If it ain't broke, don't fix it."
This is where I am. This offense already gives defenses multiple looks on demand, what with unbalanced lines, WR sets and various motions in the backfield, all of which seem to accomplish what Johnson is after. I am not sure how much of his aversion to shotgun, etc., is fear of contaminating his beloved spread option, and surely there is some, but it surely works as Georgia, FSU and MSU can dizzily attest. MSU particularly seemed to spend a lot of time looking towards the sideline, for surely help was coming.
 

00Burdell

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Just one dumb guy's opinion but I actually think our offense works better when we don't run a no huddle.

My understanding of the intent of the no-huddle is to prevent the defense from 'setting up' after a quick assessment of the offensive formation. Again, just my observation, but I think our offense actually benefits from allowing the D to 'set up' since the play we run sometimes keys off of the defensive alignment.

And I think there is a psychological aspect to taking our time, allowing the D all the time they need to put themselves in the best position to defend themselves then biting off huge chunks of yardage. Unlike boxing where the match can end after a knockout, we are obliged to play for the full 60 minutes so the slower we go, the less time our D is on the field. A no-huddle has the effect of increasing the number of possessions for both teams - not sure we need more possessions when we are already remarkably efficient with the ones we already have.

The stats that tell the story for me is that we led the nation in both the fewest 3-and-outs and the highest 3rd down conversion percentage. As long as I have been watching football, I have considered 3rd-down conversion percentage to be the single most important offensive stat.
 

AE 87

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(Disclaimer: The Flexbone from under center is a perfect offense for Georgia Tech. Also, in my opinion, it is aesthetically the most artistic and exciting offense in football.)

I've been wanting to posit this to the board for a while, but now in mid-offseason it seems like the time. I've always thought that the Pistol snap could and should work at GT, but I understand why it was a failure with Vad Lee (and it wasn't entirely Vad's fault).

Maybe it was the one time CPJ has let outside influences get to him. The GT Pistol formation looked an awful lot like some of the Spread, Zone-Read teams run, like Oklahoma State. I was actually disappointed at the time to see CPJ using the Diamond backfield. It looked cool, but was it missing the real benefit of having the QB behind the LOS in the first place?

Different blocking, slower ball-handling -- it threw the offense out of rhythm. A big football no-no is breaking the Red Blaik Rule -- singleness of purpose.

But if HS ball can be a lab for college (like college can be a lab for the NFL), I submit that in the Midwest, Muskegon is currently setting up franchises. I mean, a coach will be dating a gal whose brother used to coach at Muskegon, and the Big Red coaching staff will walk him through exactly how to install their system at his program. Here in STL where coaches are less connected, there's lots of cute imitations too.

But Muskegon runs power. Fullback belly. Man blocking. Their offense IS the Flexbone, it just puts the QB in a better position to throw and uses hybrid WR/A-backs. Really good defenses can get more lateral momentum and stuff the B back when they want to, but then they're cutting their own throat because the passing game just annihilates them.

The Reds have an aggressive passing game, by that I mean always looking to break the big play, whether routes are short or deep...in a way that reminds me of the GT passing game because sometimes the "timing" for a pass is throw it as soon as you accurately can.

All this to say a true Pistol-Flex series of plays would not actually change the concept or rhythm of the offense in general. I would love to see Justin Thomas get a few snaps against a 'D that was even more spread-out and off-balance due to the passing threat and the B-back looping from hash to hash.

But it would need to be genuine, an extension of the Flexbone instead of some Urban Meyer-influenced stuff you put in to appease young coaches or your QB(?).

The potential problem could be from a game-management POV, down & distance. A Muskegon-offense team will often run the B-back up the middle 6 plays in a row for 11 yards, then spring the outside stuff for 3 touchdowns in 10 minutes. The Jackets can't afford that luxury. CPJ feels that the program's best chance is to hog the football and beat teams the old-fashioned way.

But a 3-and-out problem also might be avoided with smart use of a Pistol series.

Any thoughts appreciated -- Lord hope there's none of those "No. Please, just no" posts, haha.

For those wondering what you're suggesting



We've talked about this a few years ago iirc. I think the biggest issue is giving up the extra stress on the D by having the mesh at the LOS. Also, it seems to me that if protection on the outside breaks down, a loss of 1 or 2 becomes a loss of 3 or 4.

I do agree that it's probably a easier transition than what we did.
 

GTNavyNuke

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Very interesting post. My problem with adding the pistol wouldn't be schematic but the dilution of practice time. I think most schemes work fine when you have the right type players (e..g. fast ABs and mobile OL). Our players have a very limited time for practicing, unlike say the NFL.

So it is less whether adding a wrinkle will help, on paper it always will. To me the question is more what is the best base offense to install and practice the **** out of.
 

Skeptic

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Just one dumb guy's opinion but I actually think our offense works better when we don't run a no huddle.

... My understanding of the intent of the no-huddle is to prevent the defense from 'setting up' after a quick assessment of the offensive formation. Again, just my observation, but I think our offense actually benefits from allowing the D to 'set up' since the play we run sometimes keys off of the defensive alignment.
Actually you may be on to something. Though I think with Thomas and based on seven years of watching Johnson and his QBs, the trust Johnson puts in him, we are playing faster. Can't demonstrate it, but just watching it seems so.
 

Ash

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The no-huddle sounds good in theory for other teams, but I don't see it fitting in with what we do. Taking time in the huddle to get the play in, breaking and sprinting to the line giving the D the least amount of time to read our formation is working pretty good for us. I don't see an added benefit to changing that.
 

AE 87

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I don't think we should do it just to do it, but I can see using no huddle situationally. For example, if we get a team to put in particular players/package to defend 3rd and long, then I can get behind going no huddle to run our base.
 

Techster

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Interesting topic. I know a lot of people are gun shy about messing with "the formula" after the 2013 debacle, but CPJ himself has experimented with the shotgun even before that (Remember UGA game 2012?). If you go back and look at tape of when he was an OC, he varied formations a lot back then (comparatively speaking to his GT days of course).

There are pluses and minuses to what you propose and really it all comes down to personnel and talent. I believe @ATL1 mentioned his recent conversation with Tevin Washington about putting JeT in the shotgun to make use of his talents. I think if you have a veteran OL and QB, which GT does, transitioning between formations is easier because really they are the ones affected by the change moreso than the skill guys away from the ball.

Aesthetically, some people would prefer to see us incorporate some shotgun/pistol/whatever new fandangle formation, and I've always been a fan the passing game, but I think GT and CPJ "are what we are". I've come to terms with it, and as long as we win, I'm fine with CPJ's flex option. After 7 seasons of it, I"ve come to appreciate the subtle changes in certain approaches from season to season, and the subtle adjustments from play to play.
 

MidtownJacket

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I agree that the hurry up O is interesting and cool, but I just don't think it helps us all that much for the reasons expounded upon above.
 

awbuzz

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Best way to get the defense tired, is to ram to keep them on the field.
I like that if we are scoring. Won't mind seeing a well rested defense because we're scoring within each 4 or 5 snaps each possession. :)
 

dressedcheeseside

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I think if you have a veteran OL and QB, which GT does, transitioning between formations is easier because really they are the ones affected by the change moreso than the skill guys away from the ball.
I was with you all the way til I read this part. The skill guys are the ones going in motion and going out in the pass paterns and reading defenders. Maybe all that is the same, maybe the differences are subtle. Then again, maybe its just a whole lot more on a plate that's already over flowing. I do know this, timing and spacing are huge in our offense. Just being a little off is unacceptable.
 

GlennW

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In the case of OUR Offense, we have a Head Coach calling plays from the sideline without a playbook, sending in fresh players with his calls, and we have a Flexbone Offense that requires our QB needs ample time to make proper reads, so our Offense is designed to be one of "clock control" rather than "fast break".

As others have mentioned, the added benefit is that our ball control Offense gives our Defense less time on the field, meaning they're typically well rested at the end of the game and the end of the season as compared to Defenses playing on teams that run "up-tempo" Offenses.

Also, the fact we run a multiple option off of every set on our Offense makes it less important of how much time the Defense has to "set" against us initially because it doesn't matter - what matters is where they are when we snap the ball and that when our QB makes his reads. Therefore, once our QB gets to the Line of scrimmage and our A-Back starts his motion, if the Defense is set, we should be good-to-go assuming our Offense is working from the same page (Offensive Line, Wide Receivers, RB's, etc.).
 

Mack

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I like the offense since a direct snap gives qb a second to look at his defense .We though will stay with what we have and until guys play disciplined defense with better athletes on defense we should do pretty well....JT is still the key.If he does well we do well.
 
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