What if CPJ got three sheets to the wind and...

TheGridironGeek

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And a byproduct of the quick-hitting nature of our O undercenter is it forces the D to commit very early, even presnap. If JT can read these quick presnap alignment changes and get us into plays that exploit it, all the better. This happened time and again vs Uga as they were bringing their corners up to the LOS right before the snap.

My understanding was that CPJ called play-action passes to counter Georgia's secondary blitzes in the first half. But the offense struggled to execute the throws. So you have to give Georgia credit for finding a way to create havoc on the LOS without giving up the downfield strike. But blitzing CB's to stop the triple O vs the Muskegon version would be suicidal, the Pistol snap and additional quick-route options give the offense a simple, deadly counter to any wild run blitzes.

Again, personally speaking I wouldn't mind never watching another quick WR screen or button hook. Selfishly I hope GT keeps doing exactly what they do. But the new concept could definitely help some lesser talented D1 Flexbone teams get to the next level.
 

Mack

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They can stay disciplined until the cows come home but when they are still outnumbered they lose. The offense was pretty effective before Thomas, but with him it is great. And the better athletes argument has been used since 2008 and from my limited following of Navy prior, it was popular there, but at least had some credence with a service academy against the Notre Dames of the world. Instead it was the great equalizer. It's fun to ponder Johnson changing, just nothing to build a reputation on.
Give me the better disciplined athletes and any offense can be stopped.Yes we do well vs the little guys but the LSU and Iowa andOle Miss and Miami etc give us problems.......the old adage of mine good ones are better than yourn is still a good rule.....JT though gives us the outside speed at qb and he can throw the ball which is a good combo to have.
 

ATL1

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Cool post and cool offense to check out.

BB does hit slower though, which I think would be CPJ's main objection. Probably would be less successful on 3rd and 4th and short.

I would assume CPJ is always studying different variants to learn what he might incorporate and is aware of this type of offense. If not someone send him the tape. I'm betting though he'd be able to help the Muskogie folks more than they'd be able to help him though.

One of the reasons what we works is we wholly commit ourselves to it. This allows a level of speed and precision that on top of the quick hitting nature of the offense allows us to be successful. Should what we do cease to be successful then one might see experimentation.

Well you play 3rd & 4th from under center. 3rd and long and maybe some 1st downs from pistol. A mild mix would probably be pretty effective.
 

JorgeJonas

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Give me the better disciplined athletes and any offense can be stopped.Yes we do well vs the little guys but the LSU and Iowa andOle Miss and Miami etc give us problems.......the old adage of mine good ones are better than yourn is still a good rule.....JT though gives us the outside speed at qb and he can throw the ball which is a good combo to have.
We have scored 30+ on Miami two of the last three years (28 in the year we didn't), and the others we played once, all in bowl games, which, I don't think, qualifies as a meaningful sample. In related news, when Oregon plays Ohio State, Auburn, or Stanford, they have problems.
 

Skeptic

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Give me the better disciplined athletes and any offense can be stopped.Yes we do well vs the little guys but the LSU and Iowa andOle Miss and Miami etc give us problems.......the old adage of mine good ones are better than yourn is still a good rule.....JT though gives us the outside speed at qb and he can throw the ball which is a good combo to have.
Mack, I am pretty sure those guys you enumerate give everybody problems, but the fact is Miami, Clemson, Georgia, FSU and MSU were all supposedly bigger and more athletic. (I am not sure I buy into the latter, particularly MSU, which I thought was ponderous.) My argument is that simply saying the better athletes will always win is specious. The piece somebody posted about Johnson and his offense quoted the now-Navy coach as being amazed when he looked across the field to see all these bigger, faster teams, and there was Navy, scoring on them. I'll take my four blockers against your three athletes and win most of those battles.
 

InsideLB

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Well you play 3rd & 4th from under center. 3rd and long and maybe some 1st downs from pistol. A mild mix would probably be pretty effective.

With limitless practice time you are right. However practice time is limited and under center option is all about reps.

One of the reasons it works 3rd and 4th and short is because of the timing, precision, ball handling, etc from doing it so much. Wont be as automatic for short yardage unless you are completely committed to it.
 

ATL1

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With limitless practice time you are right. However practice time is limited and under center option is all about reps.

One of the reasons it works 3rd and 4th and short is because of the timing, precision, ball handling, etc from doing it so much. Wont be as automatic for short yardage unless you are completely committed to it.

I think there is more than enough time our seasoned QB & OLine. It's not as if we haven't ran them before with our previous two QB's.
Tevin ran the offense well.
 

Mack

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Have 3 plays with 5 wide, screen, QB draw and verticals lol
Now that would fire up Grant Field quickly !
Mack, I am pretty sure those guys you enumerate give everybody problems, but the fact is Miami, Clemson, Georgia, FSU and MSU were all supposedly bigger and more athletic. (I am not sure I buy into the latter, particularly MSU, which I thought was ponderous.) My argument is that simply saying the better athletes will always win is specious. The piece somebody posted about Johnson and his offense quoted the now-Navy coach as being amazed when he looked across the field to see all these bigger, faster teams, and there was Navy, scoring on them. I'll take my four blockers against your three athletes and win most of those battles.
You are spot on my friend they do give folks trouble but how many times have we had trouble handling the interior lineman on the d side of the ball...one thing for sure though if you miss a block the four to three is not a good thing for the back.I will agree MSU got hype early in year but so slow and looked lost when we played them........besides if all we need to do is out number folks and thats a good thing but why do we have those down years ? I agree once you get on the perimeter we are in high cotton but until last year we got blown up many times when we played a good nose or had a very good backer in front of us.You take your number my friend and I will take athletes and the result could be interesting.Course with JT we finally have the athlete we need to kick the offense in gear since he can outrun his mistakes ,if he makes any,and then he can throw.........looking for good year.
 

Mack

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We have scored 30+ on Miami two of the last three years (28 in the year we didn't), and the others we played once, all in bowl games, which, I don't think, qualifies as a meaningful sample. In related news, when Oregon plays Ohio State, Auburn, or Stanford, they have problems.
No doubt about it we did score but dont agree with bowl games being a meaningful sample since there is plenty of time to adjust to each other...sure you do remember the trouble we had this year with GSU and Dook which are not big powers .When we get beat and prior to this year we took it on the chin we seem to get beat at los and if so nothing we do whether we outnumber folks or not seems to work..This year we seemed to handle the nose better than ever and we didnt make many mistakes at los on our side..my point is the option is great once it gets under way but the guys we lose to usually whip us at los and have very active linebackers that shoot gaps.......this year JT could move and slip away and that helped.Every coach I know says you must stop the option at the tackle hole or you have put tremedous pressure on the outside backers and corners.Hope we do well this year and JT has another outstanding year.
 

awbuzz

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Can we bump this up to what if CPJ got 4 sheets to the wind?

I don't think there isn't anything he wouldn't try if he thought it would be effective. That's no matter how many sheets to the wind. [emoji6]
 

Whiskey_Clear

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To answer the question more precisely..... I bet he'd be telling some damn good stories.

Let's get him cornered somewhere and ply him with large volumes of booze.
 

IEEEWreck

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Interesting offense. I'm not going to talk about implementation, because I'm an armchair general, not a coach. Execution is what makes professionals great, and is boring as all hell to amateurs.

It seems to be almost exactly a cpj flexbone operated back a bit. I can see how the pistol would be a huge help on highschool offenses (heh... using in context) where the learning curve for the bback and qb under center would be painfully steep.

As for Georgia Tech using it, it seems like it diminishes the effectiveness of the bback, the keep, and the pitch in order to increase effectiveness on the short pass. The bback loses the snap-grab-wham full tilt right at the beginning momentum because by the time he makes the additional two steps to the los the defense has time to build their own momentum way more than they can now. The keep similarly loses the 'oh **** where's the mesh' that confuses cameras and defenders all the time. Finally, the pitch diminishes in effectiveness because it depends on displacing the ball to the outside when the other team has momentum towards the interior (i.e. where the qb is). Place that backwards a few steps and it suddenly becomes easier not only to get a defender over, but it becomes much less likely to find a seam where the defenders lack an angle to close and then you gain 30 yards.

Now, offsetting this you have an increase in the effectiveness of the short pass because the qb can catch and find a receiver, instead of mesh-fake(or look for a run)/drop back-find a receiver. The effect on long bomb type plays is minimal, because of the timing of the throws.

So: Two questions

1. What does GT gain from the pistol?
With this set of athletes, fairly little. I can't think of any games last season where the ground game was being shut down effectively and a short route would exploit the defense's alignment or commitment. Those situations exist, and as others have pointed out there are pistol formations in CPJ's playbook for those times. I would not be shocked to see something rather like this used situationally when, for example, the dive and keep are being shut down and the counter or midline aren't shaking the defense out of it.

So I think this is potentially something we will see, if the right opponent ever materializes. But as a general look? It has downsides on our 3 best moves to increase the effectiveness of our fourth best move.

2. What does the opposing defense see?
The defense certainly has less incentive to use the VT 'oh **** ALL THE RUSH, ALL THE TIME. IN FACT, TIME THE SNAP' But a reliance on this formation is, I would think, going to get clobbered by a Foster defense. Why? The teeth of the offense are just not as sharp. With a good head of steam when they find the b-back, the defensive line has critical time to align themselves and plug the holes. Heck, with the athleticism and vision you see in the best opponents, the second level can probably stop a gain for very much even if you have GT's patented Defensive Rollerskates (TM) on your line.

The keeper likewise sacrifices not only distance, but, critically, angle. JT may be interning at Boeing's advanced transonic aerodynamics lab (where he's examining the lift created by being so smoove) but he can't overcome that much disadvantage and still come up with 15 yards out of nowhere.

So, if I'm VT or Auburn or (shudder) Ugh-uh, I'd cover the WR and A's, and dare CPJ to come up with three yards and a cloud of dust out of the pistol. I think highest quality defenses can just overpower it.


Final thought:
That's why CPJ's offense is so pretty to me- it balances very carefully a bunch of moving parts to extract the most advantage it can. If we didn't get momentum here, or angle there, the whole thing would come apart. And if there's anything more appropriate for an Institute of Technology, well, I can't think of it. I mean, come on, we just described the birth of engineering - if this moment or that angle weren't just right, the whole bridge/arch/dome would come crashing down. Then we'd have to build our buildings from big piles of steel, and put center columns on our arches.
 
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