The reports of the TO's death have been grossly exaggerated

[JacketFan137]

60 is a LOT closer to top 30 than 100 is, and CGC should be delivering top 35 Ds with his pedigree.

it is but it’s still awful. if you’re above 50 you’re comfortably in the back half of the p5 more than likely.

collins should also be delivering top 35 defenses

all these things can be true

 

[JacketFan137]

7>3

wow that’s crazy. i will consider this perspective next time as it’s totally new information that we’ve never seen before

 

[ibeattetris]

i agree. we all know johnson is better than collins and anyone would have preferred going 7-6 than 3-9. i just get the feeling that there’s a little too much rose tinted nostalgia goggles on sometimes cause at the end of the day paul averaged 7 wins a season and guys here are talking like we turned down 10 win seasons to run a regular offense

and saying this thread is about the offense is somewhat disingenuous. we all know triple option is a paul johnson discussion when it comes to tech football

"and saying this thread is about the offense is somewhat disingenuous. we all know triple option is a paul johnson discussion when it comes to tech football"
Yes, but Paul Johnson was both the head coach and the offensive coordinator. I have no problem disassociating the two things. I think CPJ had failings as a head coach. I do not think CPJ the OC and many failings. I can argue in favor of the triple option while still understanding that it doesn't tell the whole picture.

The offenses under Johnson were not the issue.

 

[Yaller Jacket]

I agree with the OP. Would welcome Monken or another PJ disciple.

 

[Northeast Stinger]

Funny how saying you liked the spread option offense run by CPJ triggers some people. It confirms my suspicions every time about what Paul’s biggest problem was.

Hint: It was not that the offense was ineffective.

 

[JacketFan137]

Funny how saying you liked the spread option offense run by CPJ triggers some people. It confirms my suspicions every time about what Paul’s biggest problem was.

Hint: It was not that the offense was ineffective.

it’s quite easy to say the other thing in the same direction. some people don’t want to hear any criticism of johnson

 

[takethepoints]

Cut blocking is likely to be completely banned.

But i liked the orange bowl 14 ol blocking which was drive blocking that gradually got into the legs.

Then you'd like this:



Now, if you watch closely, you will see that even their OL isn't cut blocking. It's drives all the way. And The ABs and WRs are all using regular drive blocks. Notice also the number of pancake blocks they are making. This is because of a problem the TO creates for downfield people. Once the RB gets to the second level all eyes go to him and how to stop him. That means that DBs are on their reverse bicycle to try to get angles. When they get hit with a drive block they are likely to be off balance and lose their feet when they are hit. Btw, Roberts ran for 174 yards in this game.

Air Force lost to Wyoming two weeks after this in a very close game. The Cowboys held them in the first half, but not in the second. Looks like a 9 win outfit to me.

 

[ilovetheoption]

at the same time the staunch option defenders seem to ignore that johnson’s teams did have shortcomings and for as great as his offenses were he was only a marginal step better than what collins has given us defensively. for some reason paul got the praises of a head coach but the protection of an offensive coordinator. no one here ever asks any questions about how bad his defenses were. johnson and tech in general was also trending down and this is widely ignored as well

at the end of the day this is all arguments that have been made over and over and over and over. the only sure thing is the option is pretty unlikely to come back and if you want to watch option football then watch coastal and the service academies.

This is entirely fair. PJ was a better OC than he was a HC.

FWIW, watching coastal isn't really watching Option football in the same way that watching the service academies are.

What Coastal does blocking wise is far closer to what Collins does than what Johnson did. It's fun, but they slap option backfield action behind standard zone/gap blocking schemes. If you watched all 22 film and cut off the bottom 1/4th of the screen, you wouldn't think of them as an option team at all.

 

[Northeast Stinger]

it’s quite easy to say the other thing in the same direction. some people don’t want to hear any criticism of johnson

Because the criticism is usually disproportionate to the reality.
In my experience.

It’s like he is some vampire that people think is going to rise from the grave and bite them. People have disagreements about Chan Gailey’s effectiveness but I don’t hear the same over the top fear that we are somehow doomed to return to the Chan Gailey years if someone says they liked him.

It just seems silly to me.

 

[jgtengineer]

This is entirely fair. PJ was a better OC than he was a HC.

FWIW, watching coastal isn't really watching Option football in the same way that watching the service academies are.

What Coastal does blocking wise is far closer to what Collins does than what Johnson did. It's fun, but they slap option backfield action behind standard zone/gap blocking schemes. If you watched all 22 film and cut off the bottom 1/4th of the screen, you wouldn't think of them as an option team at all.

Coastal is very similiar to the Fritzkrieg just with more RPO.

 

[jgtengineer]

Because the criticism is usually disproportionate to the reality.
In my experience.

It’s like he is some vampire that people think is going to rise from the grave and bite them. People have disagreements about Chan Gailey’s effectiveness but I don’t hear the same over the top fear that we are somehow doomed to return to the Chan Gailey years if someone says they liked him.

It just seems silly to me.

Chan was a good coach that was too loyal to an OC in nix and playing a mid 90s prostyle of ball control run game offense with play action boom or bust passing while playing stifling defense. He had an innovator for the time in Tenuta. Rule Changes to the defensive backfield eventually did in Tenuta's style of defense at his later stops.

 

[JacketFan137]

Because the criticism is usually disproportionate to the reality.
In my experience.

It’s like he is some vampire that people think is going to rise from the grave and bite them. People have disagreements about Chan Gailey’s effectiveness but I don’t hear the same over the top fear that we are somehow doomed to return to the Chan Gailey years if someone says they liked him.

It just seems silly to me.

it’s probably confirmation bias on both ends but i feel like here, especially due to collins, johnson has now been heralded as infallible.

 

[JacketFan137]

Chan was a good coach that was too loyal to an OC in nix and playing a mid 90s prostyle of ball control run game offense with play action boom or bust passing while playing stifling defense. He had an innovator for the time in Tenuta. Rule Changes to the defensive backfield eventually did in Tenuta's style of defense at his later stops.

if chan would have either played the offense to reggie’s strengths or went with a different qb he would have had a really crazy run all those years. reggie would have been really effective running a malzahn type offense

 

[jgtengineer]

it’s probably confirmation bias on both ends but i feel like here, especially due to collins, johnson has now been heralded as infallible.

The real question is what Johnson would have been able to do with the resources collins recieved. I mean we know a big deal was made of him gettign a whoppign 2 recruiting resources in his later years. Much less a brand manager, a director of player personel / gm position. a recruiting staff and all that.

 

[jgtengineer]

if chan would have either played the offense to reggie’s strengths or went with a different qb he would have had a really crazy run all those years. reggie would have been really effective running a malzahn type offense

The screwed up thing is they did that reggies freshman and some of his sophmore year. We actually were running a spread read style offense that was one read and go and reggie did decent. He still threw alot of picks that he shouldn't have but he was better. Then they abandoned it. Bennett might have had a really good couple of years had he had calvin to throw to.

There is also the what if scenario of signing matt ryan. Which we were apparently really close to doing.

 

[JacketFan137]

The real question is what Johnson would have been able to do with the resources collins recieved. I mean we know a big deal was made of him gettign a whoppign 2 recruiting resources in his later years. Much less a brand manager, a director of player personel / gm position. a recruiting staff and all that.

it would depend on how he wanted to use it. i was a lot more in the know about hs football when johnson was coaching (knew a lot of parents with kids playing hs football who have since graduated) and recruiting was something paul johnson and that staff in general looked at like an after thought. collins and his staff was a lot more active and a lot better at it.

i’m not sure if money would have been enough. by the end of johnson’s career he was basically a ghost recruiting wise.

 

[Northeast Stinger]

it’s probably confirmation bias on both ends but i feel like here, especially due to collins, johnson has now been heralded as infallible.

But, be honest now, you probably thought that CPJ was overrated before Collins crashed and burned.

Of course, I see myself as objective because I can’t ever think of CPJ in a vacuum, but rather look at his record in light of the criticism he got from the moment his hiring was announced, through his tenure, and the additional obstacles that any coach at Tech faces, plus a few special ones that the hill seemed to reserve for him. His record in light of that seems remarkable and his known deficits seem easy to understand given all the extenuating circumstances. But like I said, I’m objective.

 

[ilovetheoption]

Coastal is very similiar to the Fritzkrieg just with more RPO.

 

[JacketFan137]

But, be honest now, you probably thought that CPJ was overrated before Collins crashed and burned.

Of course, I see myself as objective because I can’t ever think of CPJ in a vacuum, but rather look at his record in light of the criticism he got from the moment his hiring was announced, through his tenure, and the additional obstacles that any coach at Tech faces, plus a few special ones that the hill seemed to reserve for him. His record in light of that seems remarkable and his known deficits seem easy to understand given all the extenuating circumstances. But like I said, I’m objective.

i don’t want to dox myself cause some people on this board seem…unstable, but i have a pretty long and extensive reddit comment history defending the option and was definitely the option supporter out of my friends. yet people like you assume the opposite because of your biases

johnson was the best coach since 1990 and it’s really not a conversation. that being said he averaged 7 wins a season and is overrated by many of our fanbase. it’s not really crazy to say he left a lot of really good seasons on the table and had many head scratching losses, while also giving us the highest highs.

 

[ilovetheoption]

Let's say we brought in Monken and he ran the same plays, but did so from a pistol set - would that be appreciably different?

Kinda, because you lose midline.

Everybody talks about the triple/veer as the signature play of the PJO, but honestly I think midline is the straw that stirs the drink. The threat of the back being in the secondary NOW forced everybody to defend inside-out and opened up all the rocket toss action, and the sprintout passing game for slant/rail and everything else.

IMO, midline was the play that everything else built off, not veer.