The reports of the TO's death have been grossly exaggerated

[CEB]

it was time to move on from the option. collins isn’t a good coach. both things can be true.

7 wins a season got the guy before paul fired and paul’s last 4 years he went 24-25. we weren’t competitive with clemson or uga in that stretch outside of 2016. the revisionist history is old and at this point serves no purpose other than to confirm biases.

continuing to say “you guys wanted a modern offense and this is what you got!” is such a bad argument. you’ve done nothing but point out paul johnson is a better coach than collins which everyone knows.

fortune favors the bold and all that but i’m more than willing to let some other p5 team try the option in the NIL/conference realignment era first and see if they can be succesful with todays rules

OK, I will give you both points.

But I wont easily concede the rest of the narrative. You continue to take the last 4 years of CPJ vs the first 3 years of Collins because 2015 helps prove a point.
As others have said, the W/L with Clemson and UGA don't look great, but aside from a couple of REALLY great Clemson teams, we were competitive. But I will even grant you that Clemson and UGA are moving away from us and have been for a while. We've established that those two should not be our barometer, right? So what about the rest of our schedule?

From 2016 -2018 we were 0-3 vs Clemson, 1-2 vs UGA, 13-8 vs ACC (not Clem) and 6-2 vs OOC (not UGA). Plus 1-1 in bowl games.
Throw in 2015, and we're 0-4 vs Clem, 1-3 vs UGA, 14-14 vs ACC (courtesy of the only losing season in conference), and 8-3 vs OOC and still 1-1 in bowls

So, I'll agree that it may have been time for us to move on from the option AND CGC is not a good coach. However, I'll add that Clemson and UGA were / are moving away from us for other reasons and the option was still affective against most everyone else. All four can be true.

 

[GT_05]

Three things always seem to be at work when discussing CPJ.

1. Some fans just don’t like the aesthetics of a run oriented offense.

2. CPJ was successful as a coach and thus raised the bar for success and the expectation for success at Tech, sometimes failing to meet the standard he himself had set.

3. Some fans fail to realize that with CPJ losing seasons and down stretches were always eventually followed by successful seasons. To say he was never going to win again is a bias and has no historical basis.

4. On that last point, it is possible that a program like Tech could so overcommit to getting by on the cheap that they could eventually hamstring even a winning coach like CPJ, but that is not the fault of a coaches offensive scheme.

That’s four. But yeah, I agree.

 

[CEB]

That’s four. But yeah, I agree.

forget it, he's rolling!

 

[Northeast Stinger]

That’s four. But yeah, I agree.

HA! Typing too fast and multitasking.

Realized in the moment that I needed to qualify the 3rd point and forgot that I said 3 points.

I will never show my face on this site again.

 

[Augusta_Jacket]

2. CPJ was successful as a coach and thus raised the bar for success and the expectation for success at Tech, sometimes failing to meet the standard he himself had set.

This line in particular. In 2009 I heard a lot about "winning with Chan's recruits." Then CPJ won 11 games again in 2014, including the Orange Bowl, with his own recruits. The mindset of several people I personally interacted with was, if we can win 11 games with THAT offense, then we can be world beaters with a normal offense and better recruiting. CPJ's success here largely sabotaged his later years when he was struggling to replace JT5 at QB.

Now, can we win with a normal offense and better recruiting? Sure, but it's going to take some kind of coaching or schematic edge to do so.

 

[Randy Carson]

Three things always seem to be at work when discussing CPJ.

1. Some fans just don’t like the aesthetics of a run oriented offense.

2. CPJ was successful as a coach and thus raised the bar for success and the expectation for success at Tech, sometimes failing to meet the standard he himself had set.

3. Some fans fail to realize that with CPJ losing seasons and down stretches were always eventually followed by successful seasons. To say he was never going to win again is a bias and has no historical basis.

4. On that last point, it is possible that a program like Tech could so overcommit to getting by on the cheap that they could eventually hamstring even a winning coach like CPJ, but that is not the fault of a coaches offensive scheme.

I also think that CPJ didn't work at recruiting as much as he c/should have because he believed that he could out-scheme the defense. While this is mostly true, at some level superior talent matters and great players make their coaches look good.

 

[JacketFan137]

Three things always seem to be at work when discussing CPJ.

1. Some fans just don’t like the aesthetics of a run oriented offense.

2. CPJ was successful as a coach and thus raised the bar for success and the expectation for success at Tech, sometimes failing to meet the standard he himself had set.

3. Some fans fail to realize that with CPJ losing seasons and down stretches were always eventually followed by successful seasons. To say he was never going to win again is a bias and has no historical basis.

4. On that last point, it is possible that a program like Tech could so overcommit to getting by on the cheap that they could eventually hamstring even a winning coach like CPJ, but that is not the fault of a coaches offensive scheme.

at the same time the staunch option defenders seem to ignore that johnson’s teams did have shortcomings and for as great as his offenses were he was only a marginal step better than what collins has given us defensively. for some reason paul got the praises of a head coach but the protection of an offensive coordinator. no one here ever asks any questions about how bad his defenses were. johnson and tech in general was also trending down and this is widely ignored as well

at the end of the day this is all arguments that have been made over and over and over and over. the only sure thing is the option is pretty unlikely to come back and if you want to watch option football then watch coastal and the service academies.

 

[tomknight]

That gimmicky offense was feared by everyone, hence teams adding extra practice times and requesting a week off prior to playing us. Absolutely no team respects or fears playing us now. The shrinking attendances was a shame and should solely fall on us fans. We didn't realize we had someone good when we had it. I wonder what our attendance looks like now compared to CPJ's last year? I bet it's lower.

well, it was feared by everyone except for the teams that shut it down.

every offense has its ups and downs. this whole argument of being tied to one or another is silly. it's about who is teaching, and how well the players can execute it.

 

[Randy Carson]

But I will even grant you that Clemson and UGA are moving away from us and have been for a while.

However, I'll add that Clemson and UGA were / are moving away from us for other reasons and the option was still affective against most everyone else. All four can be true.

Yes. And they are moving away from us for reasons that we cannot change (ultimately rooted in dollars). We have a systemic constraints that no coach can change.

We must adjust our expectations accordingly or remain in a perpetual state of misery.

 

[SteamWhistle]

It’s dead. Let it go. We can win 7-8 games without it just need a good coach.

 

[Randy Carson]

at the same time the staunch option defenders seem to ignore that johnson’s teams did have shortcomings and for as great as his offenses were he was only a marginal step better than what collins has given us defensively. for some reason paul got the praises of a head coach but the protection of an offensive coordinator. no one here ever asks any questions about how bad his defenses were. johnson and tech in general was also trending down and this is widely ignored as well

at the end of the day this is all arguments that have been made over and over and over and over. the only sure thing is the option is pretty unlikely to come back and if you want to watch option football then watch coastal and the service academies.

When is that game on?

 

[ibeattetris]

at the same time the staunch option defenders seem to ignore that johnson’s teams did have shortcomings and for as great as his offenses were he was only a marginal step better than what collins has given us defensively. for some reason paul got the praises of a head coach but the protection of an offensive coordinator. no one here ever asks any questions about how bad his defenses were. johnson and tech in general was also trending down and this is widely ignored as well

at the end of the day this is all arguments that have been made over and over and over and over. the only sure thing is the option is pretty unlikely to come back and if you want to watch option football then watch coastal and the service academies.

This is a thread about the offense, so being surprised that people are talking about the offense is silly.

I raised the point in my earlier post, that people have every right to complain that we were trotting out bottom 30 defenses at times under Johnson. That rests on him as it was a constant theme across multiple DCs. That doesn't take away how good the offense was.

Funny enough, 4 seasons later and our defense is worse than it ever was under Johnson, so excuse me if I would prefer top 25 offenses and piss poor defense as opposed to train wreck offenses and train wreck defenses.

 

[billga99]

I think the 3O would be more difficult to be successful with based on getting players but more importantly blocking rule changes. But coaching is about getting your team prepared and making in game adjustments. Johnson was good at both particularly on the offense side of the ball. Whatever coach we hire needs to have those traits regardless of schemes.

 

[JacketFan137]

This is a thread about the offense, so being surprised that people are talking about the offense is silly.

I raised the point in my earlier post, that people have every right to complain that we were trotting out bottom 30 defenses at times under Johnson. That rests on him as it was a constant theme across multiple DCs. That doesn't take away how good the offense was.

Funny enough, 4 seasons later and our defense is worse than it ever was under Johnson, so excuse me if I would prefer top 25 offenses and piss poor defense as opposed to train wreck offenses and train wreck defenses.

i agree. we all know johnson is better than collins and anyone would have preferred going 7-6 than 3-9. i just get the feeling that there’s a little too much rose tinted nostalgia goggles on sometimes cause at the end of the day paul averaged 7 wins a season and guys here are talking like we turned down 10 win seasons to run a regular offense

and saying this thread is about the offense is somewhat disingenuous. we all know triple option is a paul johnson discussion when it comes to tech football

 

[Augusta_Jacket]

he was only a marginal step better than what collins has given us defensively

Not even close to being true. Other than 2018, Collins D has not only been worse, but markedly worse than every defense fielded under CPJ. That's my biggest beef with him as I was expecting the D to get better, not regress.

 

[rodandanga]

Not even close to being true. Other than 2018, Collins D has not only been worse, but markedly worse than every defense fielded under CPJ. That's my biggest beef with him as I was expecting the D to get better, not regress.

View attachment 13119

Collins inability to do anything with the defense is probably the most damning thing against him. I expected the offense to struggle, but the defense has been a surprise.

 

[JacketFan137]

Not even close to being true. Other than 2018, Collins D has not only been worse, but markedly worse than every defense fielded under CPJ. That's my biggest beef with him as I was expecting the D to get better, not regress.

View attachment 13119

the difference between 100 and 60 is not a whole lot. a bunch of mediocre in there and still far below what paul should have done

also kinda funny his best two defensive seasons towards the end have losing records

 

[Augusta_Jacket]

the difference between 100 and 60 is not a whole lot. a bunch of mediocre in there and still far below what paul should have done

also kinda funny his best two defensive seasons towards the end have losing records

60 is a LOT closer to top 30 than 100 is, and CGC should be delivering top 35 Ds with his pedigree.

 

[ibeattetris]

Collins inability to do anything with the defense is probably the most damning thing against him. I expected the offense to struggle, but the defense has been a surprise.

His attachment to Thacker is worse than CPJ's attachment to Sewak.

 

[GT_05]

i agree. we all know johnson is better than collins and anyone would have preferred going 7-6 than 3-9. i just get the feeling that there’s a little too much rose tinted nostalgia goggles on sometimes cause at the end of the day paul averaged 7 wins a season and guys here are talking like we turned down 10 win seasons to run a regular offense

and saying this thread is about the offense is somewhat disingenuous. we all know triple option is a paul johnson discussion when it comes to tech football

7>3