The reports of the TO's death have been grossly exaggerated

[Northeast Stinger]

I continue to believe that CPJ got tired of the lack of support from the hill, the constant rule changes, scheduling that seemed to give opponents extra days to prep, and a fan base that was so spoiled they complained whenever we didn’t win the ACC championship.

CPJ was an innovator (watch a few clips of his teams in year 2008, 2011, 2014, 2016) and you will see that the formations look similar but the design of the plays and the play calling is very different. He was constantly tweaking, even switching to the pistol for a season. CPJ always wanted an edge, even going pass happy at Hawaii when that was his best chance to win.

I do not believe we have to go back to the triple option to win but I also think any party line that says CPJ could no longer compete is misguided and fails to see that there is still a formula for success that involves schemes and innovations. Historically, Tech’s best years have always involved scheme and innovation. The caveat would be Gailey, who ran about as conventional an offense as has ever been run at Tech. But he perhaps underachieved given the talent he recruited.

 

[GT_05]

Great post.

I watched parts of the Louisville 2018 game the other night, after some mentioned it here as the last game they really enjoyed. What struck me is that the offense featured Jalen Camp, Jordan Mason, and Nate Cottrell, amongst others. Those guys, allegedly part of a low point in recruiting, have played active NFL minutes. Do they count as good recruits who flocked to the TO? CPJ recruited a guy who became the highest paid tight end in league history - was that an example of a good recruit coming to play in the TO? Waller, Stephen Hill, Deandre Smelter, Jalen Camp; are we *sure* that any more conventional/pro-style/spread coach will bring in the same proportionate level of receiving talent as the dinky high-school dadgum wishbone? Has CGC? Have more talented kids at the skill positions come and stayed under Collins than under Johnson's gimmicky, not-nationally-relevant program?

I've lurked for years. I have little to add substantively and would only echo everyone else's frustrations. But I do ask anyone who is willing to think about it: if Monken could come in and deliver the same ceiling and floor as Johnson, would he be a bad choice? That ceiling was 2009 or 2014, that floor was the three wins in 2015 (incidentally, his successor's ceiling has proved to be his floor). If so, would it be a bad choice because of perception/aesthetics, or because we want a higher ceiling and floor than that?

Let's say we brought in Monken and he ran the same plays, but did so from a pistol set - would that be appreciably different?

Stop lurking and start posting. Good read.

 

[VRTechFan]

We shouldn't have been in 2016 the fact that that team wasn't ranked was silly. It was a slap back for the injury fest 2015 season where the media had us highly ranked.

If we convert a 2 point in 2017 and win one or two other one score games. We are doing fine there. 2018 was a few one score games away from a 9+ win season. Truth is Ratliffe's injury derailed our post JT QB plan pretty hard (as did Mathew Jordan's injury and Christian Campbell's shoulder injury that made it where he couldn't throw well anymore, campbell's shoulder injury probably cost us his brother's commitment) If we have any other Available QB than Marshall in 2017 who knows how it goes. You get nationally relevant by winning big OOC games.

As for gimmicky offense. Any offense is a gimmick thats the point of the scheme. Hell even BC's throwback run it down their throats out of singleback is a gimmick now.
There is an offensive trend of Spread RPO that most everyone is running. Then you have the Air Raid schools, the Option schools and the Spread Read schools. A few run and shoot schools exist. And Chadwells Spread Option RPO. All we need is somehtign the rest of the ACC isn't running to give us a preparation advantage. We haven't traditionally recruited the types of arms necessary for an Air Raid. We also can't seem to recruit an RPO guy. So where does that leave us?

Spot on!

 

[GT_05]

We shouldn't have been in 2016 the fact that that team wasn't ranked was silly. It was a slap back for the injury fest 2015 season where the media had us highly ranked.

If we convert a 2 point in 2017 and win one or two other one score games. We are doing fine there. 2018 was a few one score games away from a 9+ win season. Truth is Ratliffe's injury derailed our post JT QB plan pretty hard (as did Mathew Jordan's injury and Christian Campbell's shoulder injury that made it where he couldn't throw well anymore, campbell's shoulder injury probably cost us his brother's commitment) If we have any other Available QB than Marshall in 2017 who knows how it goes. You get nationally relevant by winning big OOC games.

As for gimmicky offense. Any offense is a gimmick thats the point of the scheme. Hell even BC's throwback run it down their throats out of singleback is a gimmick now.
There is an offensive trend of Spread RPO that most everyone is running. Then you have the Air Raid schools, the Option schools and the Spread Read schools. A few run and shoot schools exist. And Chadwells Spread Option RPO. All we need is somehtign the rest of the ACC isn't running to give us a preparation advantage. We haven't traditionally recruited the types of arms necessary for an Air Raid. We also can't seem to recruit an RPO guy. So where does that leave us?

It’s not a scheme like you are talking about but I think a hurry up offense can be very effective because it stops the defense from substituting. I haven’t seen anything that makes me think we are polished enough to pull that off though.

 

[JacketFan137]

it was time to move on from the option. collins isn’t a good coach. both things can be true.

7 wins a season got the guy before paul fired and paul’s last 4 years he went 24-25. we weren’t competitive with clemson or uga in that stretch outside of 2016. the revisionist history is old and at this point serves no purpose other than to confirm biases.

continuing to say “you guys wanted a modern offense and this is what you got!” is such a bad argument. you’ve done nothing but point out paul johnson is a better coach than collins which everyone knows.

fortune favors the bold and all that but i’m more than willing to let some other p5 team try the option in the NIL/conference realignment era first and see if they can be succesful with todays rules

 

[jgtengineer]

it was time to move on from the option. collins isn’t a good coach. both things can be true.

7 wins a season got the guy before paul fired and paul’s last 4 years he went 24-25. we weren’t competitive with clemson or uga in that stretch outside of 2016. the revisionist history is old and at this point serves no purpose other than to confirm biases.

continuing to say “you guys wanted a modern offense and this is what you got!” is such a bad argument. you’ve done nothing but point out paul johnson is a better coach than collins which everyone knows.

fortune favors the bold and all that but i’m more than willing to let some other p5 team try the option in the NIL/conference realignment era first and see if they can be succesful with todays rules

Seeing that we were still competitive with UGA in 2015 (1 score game we had a chance to win). You are really only talking about 2 years we weren't competitive with UGA in his last 4. The way you are wording it is also disingenuous. Also after 2017 he fired Roof and brought in a new DC so he was still trying to fix what he perceived as being the let down in 2017. Clemson is a bit of a different story there. But That was two generational talents at QB and a DC who was very much the best in the game.

 

[BleedGoldNWhite21]

Seeing that we were still competitive with UGA in 2015 (1 score game we had a chance to win). You are really only talking about 2 years we weren't competitive with UGA in his last 4. The way you are wording it is also disingenuous. Also after 2017 he fired Roof and brought in a new DC so he was still trying to fix what he perceived as being the let down in 2017. Clemson is a bit of a different story there. But That was two generational talents at QB and a DC who was very much the best in the game.

People really forget how close we were to going 4-0 against the mutts from 2013-2016. Though, we were also just as close to going 0-4. Honestly though, that’s how a rivalry SHOULD be.

 

[Augusta_Jacket]

It’s not a scheme like you are talking about but I think a hurry up offense can be very effective because it stops the defense from substituting. I haven’t seen anything that makes me think we are polished enough to pull that off though.

It killed us last Saturday. At one point Ole Miss was running a play every 7 seconds...

 

[JacketFan137]

Seeing that we were still competitive with UGA in 2015 (1 score game we had a chance to win). You are really only talking about 2 years we weren't competitive with UGA in his last 4. The way you are wording it is also disingenuous. Also after 2017 he fired Roof and brought in a new DC so he was still trying to fix what he perceived as being the let down in 2017. Clemson is a bit of a different story there. But That was two generational talents at QB and a DC who was very much the best in the game.

that game just never felt like a winnable game at any point. we were looking terrible on offense and stalling out drives and couldn’t find points til 3 minutes left in the game. we looked well below them and frankly the only reason it appeared competitive was their lack of qb play.

regardless we were a middle of the road team at best at the end of johnson’s career yet people talk like we were just running teams over and struck fear into every team we played. couldn’t be further from the truth

 

[JacketFan137]

It killed us last Saturday. At one point Ole Miss was running a play every 7 seconds...

most disappointing thing about long is we aren’t moving that fast. ole miss players were SPRINTING to get the ball down and get a play off. our guys just don’t have that and that is a huge edge

 

[jgtengineer]

People really forget how close we were to going 4-0 against the mutts from 2013-2016. Though, we were also just as close to going 0-4. Honestly though, that’s how a rivalry SHOULD be.

I mean in truth chan could easily have beaten UGA 3 times in a row i think as well in his middle years. Every year but 2012 and 2017/2018 Johnson was competitive with UGA.

 

[Augusta_Jacket]

most disappointing thing about long is we aren’t moving that fast. ole miss players were SPRINTING to get the ball down and get a play off. our guys just don’t have that and that is a huge edge

We're not running a tempo offense, though. HUNH keeps the same D on the field. Tempo gasses that D. We'd need more than a year of Long to get to that level.

 

[GT_05]

It killed us last Saturday. At one point Ole Miss was running a play every 7 seconds...

My favorite memory of the hurry up was Oregon vs FSU in a bowl game in 2015. The FSU defense had their hands on their hips starting in the middle of the second quarter; they were gassed.

 

[jgtengineer]

that game just never felt like a winnable game at any point. we were looking terrible on offense and stalling out drives and couldn’t find points til 3 minutes left in the game. we looked well below them and frankly the only reason it appeared competitive was their lack of qb play.

regardless we were a middle of the road team at best at the end of johnson’s career yet people talk like we were just running teams over and struck fear into every team we played. couldn’t be further from the truth

Actually we were still puttng fear in teams, They were spending a lot of time preparing for a middle of the road team. The UGA game was actually probably roofs best called defensive game that year so we shouldn't take that away from him. UGA's lackluster QB play was alot because of us actually getting pressure and covering well and keeping thing sin front of them. We also almost rushed for 200 yards. Butker missed a field goal and we had 2 interceptions while not forcing turnovers. That was the difference. ironically that game played out like most UGA -GT games under chan.

 

[ibeattetris]

Actually we were still puttng fear in teams, They were spending a lot of time preparing for a middle of the road team.

Kirby specifically said in an interview in 2018 or 2017 that he spent 100% of his time preparing for GT in the defensive rooms and had to let the offense do its thing without him. Teams circled our game and practiced extra for it. No one cares now.

 

[Jim Prather]

That offense scared teams to the point where they would change their practice routines both before the season as well as within the season. Moreover, a LOT of teams even changed their OOC scheduling so they could get additional practice against the option.

 

[Roswellgoldmember]

it was time to move on from the option. collins isn’t a good coach. both things can be true.

7 wins a season got the guy before paul fired and paul’s last 4 years he went 24-25. we weren’t competitive with clemson or uga in that stretch outside of 2016. the revisionist history is old and at this point serves no purpose other than to confirm biases.

continuing to say “you guys wanted a modern offense and this is what you got!” is such a bad argument. you’ve done nothing but point out paul johnson is a better coach than collins which everyone knows.

fortune favors the bold and all that but i’m more than willing to let some other p5 team try the option in the NIL/conference realignment era first and see if they can be succesful with todays rules

No one in the ACC or nationally was competitive with Clemson during that stretch, maybe the best 4 years in the history of the school. You think Collins would of been? We beat UGA one of those years and beat them the year before the timeframe that you included. Regardless the only benchmark of being competitive with UGA and Clemson is silly.

 

[Randy Carson]

it was time to move on from the option. collins isn’t a good coach. both things can be true.

7 wins a season got the guy before paul fired and paul’s last 4 years he went 24-25. we weren’t competitive with clemson or uga in that stretch outside of 2016. the revisionist history is old and at this point serves no purpose other than to confirm biases.

continuing to say “you guys wanted a modern offense and this is what you got!” is such a bad argument. you’ve done nothing but point out paul johnson is a better coach than collins which everyone knows.

fortune favors the bold and all that but i’m more than willing to let some other p5 team try the option in the NIL/conference realignment era first and see if they can be succesful with todays rules

It's also a bad argument to say that the option is dead simply because DC's have figured it out.

No, it's "bad" in the sense that kids who are dreaming of the NFL (snicker...sorry) think that a good education paid for by a football scholly is a bad deal.

The kids playing for the academies are there PRIMARILY for reasons other than football. A military career is their dream...playing football is for fun.

Maybe if Tech's players had the same mentality, we would see a different result on the field.

 

[JacketFan137]

No one in the ACC or nationally was competitive with Clemson during that stretch, maybe the best 4 years in the history of the school. You think Collins would of been? We beat UGA one of those years and beat them the year before the timeframe that you included. Regardless the only benchmark of being competitive with UGA and Clemson is silly.

well unfortunately you have to play them every year. if you are ok conceding 2 losses forever before the season starts then by all means we should have kept it up.

credit to the GTAA for attempting something. can’t hit the ball if you don’t get the bat off your shoulders. collins just wasn’t the guy to take us there

 

[Northeast Stinger]

Seeing that we were still competitive with UGA in 2015 (1 score game we had a chance to win). You are really only talking about 2 years we weren't competitive with UGA in his last 4. The way you are wording it is also disingenuous. Also after 2017 he fired Roof and brought in a new DC so he was still trying to fix what he perceived as being the let down in 2017. Clemson is a bit of a different story there. But That was two generational talents at QB and a DC who was very much the best in the game.

Three things always seem to be at work when discussing CPJ.

1. Some fans just don’t like the aesthetics of a run oriented offense.

2. CPJ was successful as a coach and thus raised the bar for success and the expectation for success at Tech, sometimes failing to meet the standard he himself had set.

3. Some fans fail to realize that with CPJ losing seasons and down stretches were always eventually followed by successful seasons. To say he was never going to win again is a bias and has no historical basis.

4. On that last point, it is possible that a program like Tech could so overcommit to getting by on the cheap that they could eventually hamstring even a winning coach like CPJ, but that is not the fault of a coaches offensive scheme.