The dynamics of recruiting, a historical perspective
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RonJohn
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What would you consider "classroom help"?
If you mean logistical help to: get video of lectures, opportunities to receive assignments, and opportunities to turn in assignments: missed while attending and/or participating in events, then I am all for helping the athletes keep up while they are engaging in the sports. If you mean courses and majors that are specifically designed to keep athletes unable or unwilling to perform as students, then I am vehemently opposed.
Milwaukee
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The discussion was being held in the KQ Chuck Oliver thread and then Cheese continued his point(s) in an entirely new thread. He makes some very good points but now I'm having to flip back and forth between the two threads to follow the same discussion.
#firstworldproblems
LongforDodd
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The meeting at which the interested parties quizzed the Provost about some help were wanting, I believe, curriculum changes to make the school more attractive to the 4 and 5 stars. Without that "help", Dave Braine may prove to be more right than wrong.
dressedcheeseside
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Does anybody think it makes any sense to make academic curricular decisions based on how attractive they are to 4 and 5 star football prospects? You could make a dozen rationalizations, but if the underlying reason is the one stated above, it's a total sham.
On a side note, this reminds me of the old "socks for jocks" classes in the old Textile Engineering Building that used to sit where the Campanile now does. There was a geology course affectionately known as "rocks for jocks" as well.
RonJohn
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Once again I ask -- What type of "help" are you proposing?
I can think of some types of assistance that the Provost could push for that could be helpful to athletes. When I was at Tech, there were some tough classes that were only offered at certain times of the year. If that is still the case, then offering such classes at different times during the year could give athletes the benefit of being able to take those classes outside of their sports season. The athletes could take lighter and easier course loads during their season and make up for it out of their season. As I stated before, I am all for giving the student-athletes their best opportunity for them to succeed in the classroom.
However, from the way your response is worded, it appears that the "help" would be more in the lines of degrees and classes that we could market the school to the "4 and 5 stars" as a party to attend on their way to the NFL. Getting highly regarded recruits to attend school to learn nothing and get a meaningless degree does nothing for the kid. If all the kid wants is an opportunity to audition for professional sports teams, then he should have that opportunity in semi-pro or minor league teams. I am very opposed to Tech placing the desires to win football above the academics, and even more placing that desire above the well being of the athletes. Most of the athletes that attend college only to audition for the NFL never make it to an NFL field. If more colleges attempted to motivate them in the classroom and off the field, then many of those that don't make it on the field would be much better off for it. My disappointment in schools that bring in highly rated recruits to play sports, but only pretend to be students is not based on a snobby attitude. It is based on the belief that treating people as commodities to be used for entertainment is not ethical.
Northeast Stinger
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You can preach this all day and I will listen.
LongforDodd
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You've read my participation in this thread entirely wrong. I'm merely reporting what I've read around these boards and parroting some comments. I'm not asking that the Provost do anything but others have asked.
As I write this I see this from you in a post just above my cursor and which NEJ agreed with, as do I: My disappointment in schools that bring in highly rated recruits to play sports, but only pretend to be students is not based on a snobby attitude. It is based on the belief that treating people as commodities to be used for entertainment is not ethical.
I don't believe anyone wants to become a factory which is one end of this spectrum but the other end is the current status quo, a status that no one wants either but one we've been in for decades and probably will stay in unless someone does something different. I just don't know who that person is unless Homer Rice II comes to town.
LongforDodd
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I do
This question has a chance to be rhetorical but if by chance it is directed at me I'll respond by saying, as I did to RonJohn, I'm not interested in becoming a factory and I don't want to make a sham of our school. But it sure would be nice (and I'd bet everyone would agree) to have a few 4 and 5 stars around. It's obvious that what we've been doing for decades now, isn't doing it.
kittysniper101
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We keep talking about things that we have no control over, why not use some of the offseason energy on this board to brainstorm and commit to ideas that we as fans can actually work together on? I had some suggestions earlier, but maybe we're content to talk circles on other topics.
InsideLB
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IMO our recruiting has improved some.
Yeah we're not reeling in the 4 & 5 star guys. But do you remember taking Carl Miles and looking at his film and saying WTF? I do. Compare Carl Miles to another CB we took late this year. Ajani Kerr. Kid has much longer highlights in which he's involved in game changing plays, plus looks very physical. Also has good height and length relative to Miles. Compare late take safeties Corey Griffin and Lance Richardson. No comparison.
Let's look at other positions:
--WR: Jeune came in much less raw than Waller. Harland Howell came in less rough than Messick. Philpott was a better prospect than many. Stewart looks like he'll be productive for us. This year's crop of WR look fast and productive on film relative to previous years.
--RB: In recent years Mills, MLD, M Marshall, Cottrell, Jarrett, Searcy, Lynch, and Benson have been more dynamic looking prospects
--QB: Lucas Johnson, Taquon Marshall, Jaylend Ratliff pre accident, Jay Jones, and Justin were all better looking prospects than Jaybo and Tevin.
Other Defense: Brant Mitchell, AJ Gray, David Curry, Cooksey, St. Amour, Alexander all look like a step up from what has been the usual. Henderson and Glanton look like an incremental step up.
OL: Can't tell. Seems like we've had a mixed bag here. Need more consistency across the board.
Can it get better and does it need to get better? Yeah. The current incremental improvement IMO has been due to hiring recruiting staff. Need to keep it up, let the young guys bear fruit, win, ride the momentum.
Yeah we're not reeling in the 4 & 5 star guys. But do you remember taking Carl Miles and looking at his film and saying WTF? I do. Compare Carl Miles to another CB we took late this year. Ajani Kerr. Kid has much longer highlights in which he's involved in game changing plays, plus looks very physical. Also has good height and length relative to Miles. Compare late take safeties Corey Griffin and Lance Richardson. No comparison.
Let's look at other positions:
--WR: Jeune came in much less raw than Waller. Harland Howell came in less rough than Messick. Philpott was a better prospect than many. Stewart looks like he'll be productive for us. This year's crop of WR look fast and productive on film relative to previous years.
--RB: In recent years Mills, MLD, M Marshall, Cottrell, Jarrett, Searcy, Lynch, and Benson have been more dynamic looking prospects
--QB: Lucas Johnson, Taquon Marshall, Jaylend Ratliff pre accident, Jay Jones, and Justin were all better looking prospects than Jaybo and Tevin.
Other Defense: Brant Mitchell, AJ Gray, David Curry, Cooksey, St. Amour, Alexander all look like a step up from what has been the usual. Henderson and Glanton look like an incremental step up.
OL: Can't tell. Seems like we've had a mixed bag here. Need more consistency across the board.
Can it get better and does it need to get better? Yeah. The current incremental improvement IMO has been due to hiring recruiting staff. Need to keep it up, let the young guys bear fruit, win, ride the momentum.
takethepoints
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When you're right, you're right.
I actually think the last two classes have been pretty good, a major surprise after last year. I agree about the players mentioned above. I would also add that our OL situation would have looked a good deal better if Griffin and Stickley hadn't developed the injuries they did. Potentially losing Griffin particularly hurt.
And as for things fans could do to help the program that are actually within our power (kinda), I'd say that pushing the school for more staff help and money to get the coaches out in the field is a no brainer. We don't have to change anything else; all we have to do is throw more money at the problem. But … that's what makes it a hard sell. When pushed to it, the American penchant is to expect Swedish-level services for Mississippi-level taxes and to think we can get around our problems by forcing greater efforts out of the people delivering the service. This carries over to football, of course; how many posts have we seen here that blame our perceived recruiting woes on a lack of effort from our coaching staff? But you can't get blood out of a turnip; if we want better recruiting results - and that would help, despite what I say above - then I think we have to press the powers that be to provide more money and be ready to pony up more ourselves.
I actually think the last two classes have been pretty good, a major surprise after last year. I agree about the players mentioned above. I would also add that our OL situation would have looked a good deal better if Griffin and Stickley hadn't developed the injuries they did. Potentially losing Griffin particularly hurt.
And as for things fans could do to help the program that are actually within our power (kinda), I'd say that pushing the school for more staff help and money to get the coaches out in the field is a no brainer. We don't have to change anything else; all we have to do is throw more money at the problem. But … that's what makes it a hard sell. When pushed to it, the American penchant is to expect Swedish-level services for Mississippi-level taxes and to think we can get around our problems by forcing greater efforts out of the people delivering the service. This carries over to football, of course; how many posts have we seen here that blame our perceived recruiting woes on a lack of effort from our coaching staff? But you can't get blood out of a turnip; if we want better recruiting results - and that would help, despite what I say above - then I think we have to press the powers that be to provide more money and be ready to pony up more ourselves.
dressedcheeseside
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Because this board is purely entertainment.
dressedcheeseside
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Of course we all want highly rated prospects beating down our doors, but for the right reason. The best combination of athletics and academics in college football is the reason I want. I don't want them coming because we've added fluff majors that they can coast through school while auditioning for the NFL. I don't want to win by lowering our academic standards or even adding legitimate majors that aren't needed and would never be added w/o the benefit of attracting athletes.
I doubt adding a few cake majors would help a whole lot anyway. GT still has an image problem, in the eyes of recruits, that centers around the fact GT is a STEM school first and foremost. There's a whole host of characteristics that come with that bag of worms that wouldn't go away by adding a few underwater basket weaving 1o1's.
RonJohn
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Let's bring back swimming with bricks. The recruits can boast about how many bricks it takes to drag them under.
Whiskey_Clear
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Want to help as a fan? Easy. Show up to the damn games. (Directed at those within a 3 hr drive to campus)
Northeast Stinger
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Quote is destined to become a classic, right up there with MIT during the week and Alabama on Saturday.
LongforDodd
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I agree completely. Now let's go on to some other problem before PETA comes a callin' for beating this horse again. Good conversation...seriously.
Sideways
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Now you have done it! My father, GT graduate in Textile Engineering class of 1950 said he spent many an afternoon in that building creating different kinds of dyes and what have you. I thought it had become a math building of some kind. Of course, he spent only a few years working as a plant manager for Piedmont Mills in Aragon, Georgia. Then he went off to more lucrative careers that had nothing to do with textiles. but he always said that being at Tech gave him the confidence to handle any problem no matter what.