The DC Debate

[33jacket]

Interesting analysis on DJ with cut ups and breakdowns
http://www.steelersdepot.com/2016/02/2016-nfl-draft-player-profiles-georgia-tech-cb-d-j-white/

Did you write this @33jacket lol

Lol. It is easy to see the problem with roof and his scheme. There is no rhyme or reason to what we ask our d to do at times. But no i didnt author any of this. Its just if u know a bit of football you can see it clearly on tape.

 

[tech_wreck47]

Lol. It is easy to see the problem with roof and his scheme. There is no rhyme or reason to what we ask our d to do at times. But no i didnt author any of this. Its just if u know a bit of football you can see it clearly on tape.

Correct, I can't stand it.

 

[PBR549]

Lol. It is easy to see the problem with roof and his scheme. There is no rhyme or reason to what we ask our d to do at times. But no i didnt author any of this. Its just if u know a bit of football you can see it clearly on tape.

No, it's easy to see that you nor the writer of the article has any idea about coaching our defensive

 

[33jacket]

No, it's easy to see that you nor the writer of the article has any idea about coaching our defensive

He is at best an average coach. That is easy to see for me. Sorry we just will never agree. I know you like him. But he will be gone next year once his D lands in the 70s or 80s again. If he gets us anywhere near the top 40 next year i will be shocked and he will save his job.

Its sucks now at tech a d around the top 40 is now considered a unreal success

 

[PBR549]

He is at best an average coach. That is easy to see for me. Sorry we just will never agree. I know you like him. But he will be gone next year once his D lands in the 70s or 80s again. If he gets us anywhere near the top 40 next year i will be shocked and he will save his job.

Its sucks now at tech a d around the top 40 is now considered a unreal success

You seem to have an agenda. If Roof is gone next year it will a terrible thing for our program.
The writer of that article I'm sure is a journalism major that has never coached a defensive back in his life. I watched the clips and I saw a well coached corner. On the slant route the #2 receiver coming out of the backfield released to the flat. The corner can't jump the slant on that when he has deep third. That has to be covered from underneath by the linebacker in the flat and the linebacker in the hook to curl. The corner has to be aware of the wheel Route.
On the deep post we were in man free and again white did exactly what he should have done. He forced the inside release where he had safety help and broke up the pass.
The third play where the author of the article says he would have been flagged in the pros was also a fine play within the rules of college football. It's not our staff's job to teach and rep techniques used in the pros.
So if you're using this article to prove some kind of point about Roof's coaching ability you're reaching a long way on that one especially the way he evaluated those clips. Those were also just 3 clips from the entire season of game film not to mention the countless hours of practice film evaluated by the staff.
Ted Roof is a guy who is near the top of his profession and has been for many years. The personnel that he has had to work with in the very short time he's been here has been marginal at best but it's getting better in large part due to Roof's recruiting. I get that he's in a high profile job and people are going to take shots at him from the anominity of the internet but you seem to be on a mission. It sounds personal.
I'm looking forward to see how much our D improves this year. We're finally getting a little consistency of staff on defense after the Groh debackle.

 

[AE 87]

You seem to have an agenda. If Roof is gone next year it will a terrible thing for our program.
The writer of that article I'm sure is a journalism major that has never coached a defensive back in his life. I watched the clips and I saw a well coached corner. On the slant route the #2 receiver coming out of the backfield released to the flat. The corner can't jump the slant on that when he has deep third. That has to be covered from underneath by the linebacker in the flat and the linebacker in the hook to curl. The corner has to be aware of the wheel Route.
On the deep post we were in man free and again white did exactly what he should have done. He forced the inside release where he had safety help and broke up the pass.
The third play where the author of the article says he would have been flagged in the pros was also a fine play within the rules of college football. It's not our staff's job to teach and rep techniques used in the pros.
So if you're using this article to prove some kind of point about Roof's coaching ability you're reaching a long way on that one especially the way he evaluated those clips. Those were also just 3 clips from the entire season of game film not to mention the countless hours of practice film evaluated by the staff.
Ted Roof is a guy who is near the top of his profession and has been for many years. The personnel that he has had to work with in the very short time he's been here has been marginal at best but it's getting better in large part due to Roof's recruiting. I get that he's in a high profile job and people are going to take shots at him from the anominity of the internet but you seem to be on a mission. It sounds personal.
I'm looking forward to see how much our D improves this year. We're finally getting a little consistency of staff on defense after the Groh debackle.

I appreciate the thoughtfulness of this post, but I admit I lack the expertise to assess it. I just look at eye test and stats.

In my opinion our results have not matched our talent. I hope this year proves skeptics wrong.

 

[PBR549]

I appreciate the thoughtfulness of this post, but I admit I lack the expertise to assess it. I just look at eye test and stats.

In my opinion our results have not matched our talent. I hope this year proves skeptics wrong.

I don't want to get in to a discussion of talent because I don't believe it's the proper thing to do about our SAs. In fact only coaches of our team and the teams we play can truly evaluate our talent level. As outsiders we are unable to really evaluate players to much of an extent because we aren't evaluating them on a daily basis. I think we can have an opinion like you and I both do but as far as talent evaluation nobody as a fan or media can evaluate to the level as coaches. There business is evaluating talent whether in practice, games or recruiting. The difference in teams talent levels can only be evaluated by coaches. Statistics don't always give you the big picture. Of course we know that the team with the highest talent level doesn't always win.

 

[tech_wreck47]

You seem to have an agenda. If Roof is gone next year it will a terrible thing for our program.
The writer of that article I'm sure is a journalism major that has never coached a defensive back in his life. I watched the clips and I saw a well coached corner. On the slant route the #2 receiver coming out of the backfield released to the flat. The corner can't jump the slant on that when he has deep third. That has to be covered from underneath by the linebacker in the flat and the linebacker in the hook to curl. The corner has to be aware of the wheel Route.
On the deep post we were in man free and again white did exactly what he should have done. He forced the inside release where he had safety help and broke up the pass.
The third play where the author of the article says he would have been flagged in the pros was also a fine play within the rules of college football. It's not our staff's job to teach and rep techniques used in the pros.
So if you're using this article to prove some kind of point about Roof's coaching ability you're reaching a long way on that one especially the way he evaluated those clips. Those were also just 3 clips from the entire season of game film not to mention the countless hours of practice film evaluated by the staff.
Ted Roof is a guy who is near the top of his profession and has been for many years. The personnel that he has had to work with in the very short time he's been here has been marginal at best but it's getting better in large part due to Roof's recruiting. I get that he's in a high profile job and people are going to take shots at him from the anominity of the internet but you seem to be on a mission. It sounds personal.
I'm looking forward to see how much our D improves this year. We're finally getting a little consistency of staff on defense after the Groh debackle.

I can agree on the fact that whoever wrote the article might not have known what they were talking about, but to say roof is at the top of his profession is crazy. When we end up ranked in the 60's on deffense, I can show you about 60 something coaches that are doing something better. Show me one place he has not underachieved? Even when he was at auburn they didn't have a great D, it was the offense that won them the national championship imo. I'm not saying he's not a good football mind and doesn't know anything about football, but I do believe we underachieve on D, the proof is in the stats, there's nothing to go by that's better than that. We play a very simple bend but don't brake D imo, with an undersized deffense we should be doing more exotic blitz and coverages to mix things up, I have seen QB's pass all over us because of no pressure on him, or because our coverages are less than spectacular due to it being so simple, it's easy for our blitz packages to be picked up, and to pick apart our coverages imo. I like roof personaly, I think he's a good recruiter, but if we can't get any better on D we more than likely won't have a consistently good program, just imagine if our D was just in the top 30 over the past years with cpj I would dare to say we would have many more 10 win seasons. Now I could be wrong and our deffense might play at exactly what their talent is but I just don't believe that.

 

[33jacket]

You seem to have an agenda. If Roof is gone next year it will a terrible thing for our program.
The writer of that article I'm sure is a journalism major that has never coached a defensive back in his life. I watched the clips and I saw a well coached corner. On the slant route the #2 receiver coming out of the backfield released to the flat. The corner can't jump the slant on that when he has deep third. That has to be covered from underneath by the linebacker in the flat and the linebacker in the hook to curl. The corner has to be aware of the wheel Route.
On the deep post we were in man free and again white did exactly what he should have done. He forced the inside release where he had safety help and broke up the pass.
The third play where the author of the article says he would have been flagged in the pros was also a fine play within the rules of college football. It's not our staff's job to teach and rep techniques used in the pros.
So if you're using this article to prove some kind of point about Roof's coaching ability you're reaching a long way on that one especially the way he evaluated those clips. Those were also just 3 clips from the entire season of game film not to mention the countless hours of practice film evaluated by the staff.
Ted Roof is a guy who is near the top of his profession and has been for many years. The personnel that he has had to work with in the very short time he's been here has been marginal at best but it's getting better in large part due to Roof's recruiting. I get that he's in a high profile job and people are going to take shots at him from the anominity of the internet but you seem to be on a mission. It sounds personal.
I'm looking forward to see how much our D improves this year. We're finally getting a little consistency of staff on defense after the Groh debackle.

my agenda is I want the best coaches for our program and he is not close IMO. I have been equally as vocal and feel the same about Sewak. I have a silent opinion about Speed too. So yes, I have an agenda. He has been a DC for a decade and has had only had 1 defense ranked better than top 30 and only 2 or 3 ranked better than top 50. That is bad. Our prior staff DC had 5 or 6 D's ranked better than top 35. He did a good job here. Roof. Not so much. So I don't want to hear it can't be done here and this is the best we got etc.

I am not using this article at all. It was posted by @Ibeeballin. Its just another person who points out the lack of clue by our DC. On top of me. @Ibeeballin and others over the seasons who have repetitively said we don't get wtf he is doing scheme wise.

not to mention, with the style of our O and our limited possessions any DC that is good should have a top 35 or 40 D every year with a blink of an eye.....yet in our best offensive year Ted rolled out a 105 ranked D. If anyone thinks our talent on D is 105 out of 130 or so...ok...

This isn't an issue with you. But to point out constantly he is in the top of his profession will all the stats under god suggest he is at best average is silly. The dude may be a good guy. And convincing when talking to him. But he is simply not great as a DC and even CPJ has to point out publicly he didn't "get" what we are doing and it needed change.

Roof is on notice. We will stink again this year on D and he will be gone. And I hope we finally find a good D mind that fits tech.

 

[PBR549]

I can agree on the fact that whoever wrote the articlight not have known what they were talking about, but to say roof is at the top of his profession is crazy. When we end up ranked in the 60's on deffense, I can show you about 60 something coaches that are doing something better. Show me one place he has not underachieved? Even when he was at auburn they didn't have a great D, it was the offense that won them the national championship imo. I'm not saying he's not a good football mind and doesn't know anything about football, but I do believe we underachieve on D, the proof is in the stats, there's nothing to go by that's better than that. We play a very simple bend but don't brake D imo, with an undersized deffense we should be doing more exotic blitz and coverages to mix things up, I have seen QB's pass all over us because of no pressure on him, or because our coverages are less than spectacular due to it being so simple, it's easy for our blitz packages to be picked up, and to pick apart our coverages imo. I like roof personaly, I think he's a good recruiter, but if we can't get any better on D we more than likely won't have a consistently good program, just imagine if our D was just in the top 30 over the past years with cpj I would dare to say we would have many more 10 win seasons. Now I could be wrong and our deffense might play at exactly what their talent is but I just don't believe that.

There are thousands and thousands of good coaches across America who would love to have been the DC at Auburn, Penn State, Duke and Georgia Tech like Roof has but they haven't because they are not at his level. He's in a very elite group of coaches who have done what he has done and made the money he has made. Nobody just gives you those jobs, you earn them. Yes he's near the top of the coaching profession. I'd say top one or two percent of coaches.
You don't know if he's underachieved or not as a coach because you are not able to make an evaluation of relative talent level per my last post. Stats many, many times do not adequately reflect the coaching job that has taken place. A coach can have the worse talent level in America, terrible stats and still have done a magnificent job.
Roof can't turn our defense around over night at a place like Tech. The talent level is getting better but it takes time. Firing the coordinator like Paul has 3 times really sets a program back. Firing Roof would be a disaster and probably the end of CPJ and he knows that.
I also think Roof is an excellent coach and an even better recruiter having been professionally associated with him for over 25 years.
Scheme is something completely dictated by personnel. A coordinator has to determine how he can put his players in a position to be as successful as possible. All coaches have a preference on how best to do this. The problem is none of the Xs and Os will work without the Jimmy's and Joes.

 

[AE 87]

There are thousands and thousands of good coaches across America who would love to have been the DC at Auburn, Penn State, Duke and Georgia Tech like Roof has but they haven't because they are not at his level. He's in a very elite group of coaches who have done what he has done and made the money he has made. Nobody just gives you those jobs, you earn them. Yes he's near the top of the coaching profession. I'd say top one or two percent of coaches.
You don't know if he's underachieved or not as a coach because you are not able to make an evaluation of relative talent level per my last post. Stats many, many times do not adequately reflect the coaching job that has taken place. A coach can have the worse talent level in America, terrible stats and still have done a magnificent job.
Roof can't turn our defense around over night at a place like Tech. The talent level is getting better but it takes time. Firing the coordinator like Paul has 3 times really sets a program back. Firing Roof would be a disaster and probably the end of CPJ and he knows that.
I also think Roof is an excellent coach and an even better recruiter having been professionally associated with him for over 25 years.
Scheme is something completely dictated by personnel. A coordinator has to determine how he can put his players in a position to be as successful as possible. All coaches have a preference on how best to do this. The problem is none of the Xs and Os will work without the Jimmy's and Joes.

Again, I hope you're right, but GT D's coached by Roof have put a lot more guys on NFL rosters than our O. The talent arg is tough to make imo. We've had much personnel for 3 DL than 4 DL and actually played some of our best D from those sets, but used it rarely.

 

[PBR549]

my agenda is I want the best coaches for our program and he is not close IMO. I have been equally as vocal and feel the same about Sewak. I have a silent opinion about Speed too. So yes, I have an agenda. He has been a DC for a decade and has had only had 1 defense ranked better than top 30 and only 2 or 3 ranked better than top 50. That is bad. Our prior staff DC had 5 or 6 D's ranked better than top 35. He did a good job here. Roof. Not so much. So I don't want to hear it can't be done here and this is the best we got etc.

I am not using this article at all. It was posted by @Ibeeballin. Its just another person who points out the lack of clue by our DC. On top of me. @Ibeeballin and others over the seasons who have repetitively said we don't get wtf he is doing scheme wise.

not to mention, with the style of our O and our limited possessions any DC that is good should have a top 35 or 40 D every year with a blink of an eye.....yet in our best offensive year Ted rolled out a 105 ranked D. If anyone thinks our talent on D is 105 out of 130 or so...ok...

This isn't an issue with you. But to point out constantly he is in the top of his profession will all the stats under god suggest he is at best average is silly. The dude may be a good guy. And convincing when talking to him. But he is simply not great as a DC and even CPJ has to point out publicly he didn't "get" what we are doing and it needed change.

Roof is on notice. We will stink again this year on D and he will be gone. And I hope we finally find a good D mind that fits tech.

He's been hired by a lot of good coaches and if he's gone from here next year he will land another good job. Again stats definitely are not telling the story here at Tech plus he's only been here 3 years. He needs time like any coach would.
I'm not sure who you are talking about our prior staff DC but they are obviously history.

 

[PBR549]

Again, I hope you're right, but GT D's coached by Roof have put a lot more guys on NFL rosters than our O. The talent arg is tough to make imo. We've had much personnel for 3 DL than 4 DL and actually played some of our best D from those sets, but used it rarely.

It's all a game of relativity of personnel. Our guys versus the guys we play. We can't make those type of evaluations accurately. We can have a general opinion but specifics take way more time, effort and expertise than any of us have. Those guys are paid alot of money to make those evaluations.

 

[Northeast Stinger]

We play a very simple bend but don't brake D imo

I don't think CTR would describe the defense that way.

 

[Northeast Stinger]

Yes he's near the top of the coaching profession. I'd say top one or two percent of coaches.

So, if I am following your argument, and we compare CTR to Kirby Smart, then the main difference is that Smart gets much more talent at a school like Alabama than a coach typically gets at Tech.

So how did Smart do versus Clemson last year? Gave up 550 yards of offense.
How did Coach Roof do versus Clemson last year? Gave up 537 yards of offense.

So I think I have proven your thesis that cherry picking stats is not going to tell us who the better defensive coaches are.

 

[tech_wreck47]

There are thousands and thousands of good coaches across America who would love to have been the DC at Auburn, Penn State, Duke and Georgia Tech like Roof has but they haven't because they are not at his level. He's in a very elite group of coaches who have done what he has done and made the money he has made. Nobody just gives you those jobs, you earn them. Yes he's near the top of the coaching profession. I'd say top one or two percent of coaches.
You don't know if he's underachieved or not as a coach because you are not able to make an evaluation of relative talent level per my last post. Stats many, many times do not adequately reflect the coaching job that has taken place. A coach can have the worse talent level in America, terrible stats and still have done a magnificent job.
Roof can't turn our defense around over night at a place like Tech. The talent level is getting better but it takes time. Firing the coordinator like Paul has 3 times really sets a program back. Firing Roof would be a disaster and probably the end of CPJ and he knows that.
I also think Roof is an excellent coach and an even better recruiter having been professionally associated with him for over 25 years.
Scheme is something completely dictated by personnel. A coordinator has to determine how he can put his players in a position to be as successful as possible. All coaches have a preference on how best to do this. The problem is none of the Xs and Os will work without the Jimmy's and Joes.

Yes, stats don't always show everything, but after 10+ years of the same type of stats that should tell you something. You say I don't know if he's underachieved, and you are correct, but if I don't know that, then you don't know if he is underachieving or not because you also do not know what the talent level is if you are not watching it everyday, so you have no clue if he's overachieving, underachieving, or right where he should be, so to say "Elite" is a stretch, and it's kind of contradicting to say he's elite when you don't know the talent level either. Just because a coach has been to a lot of different schools doesn't mean elite( elite mean a group of superior people that are above the rest at what they do) is roof superior at the college level to the other coaches to you? maybe it's just our definition of elite that's different, elite to me is a very small group of coaches not just guys that have coached a long time, they actually have to show me something on the field to make them elite. I'm sorry, not puttig a top D on the field ever is not elite to me. He's been the D coordinator at GT for how long? He's had plenty of time to have a good deffense, it doesn't take that long to turn things around because it's all his guys on the feild now and not the other defensive coordinators, so that's not a very good argument. I understand you know him, but I just don't see how a D in the 60's is exceptable if you want to really win, and to say if we get rid of him we will be in trouble is crazy, we might would get a great D coordinator, and I have seen coaches in 1 year turn a D around. I personally have nothing against roof and I think he's a good football mind, he knows about football, and because I don't know if he's underachieving or not I can't say I want him gone that's why I never said we should fire him, but something needs to get better on D if we want to compete imo., and if he can be the one to turn it around then great, because he's a good recruiter, and seems to be a good guy.

 

[AE 87]

So, if I am following your argument, and we compare CTR to Kirby Smart, then the main difference is that Smart gets much more talent at a school like Alabama than a coach typically gets at Tech.

So how did Smart do versus Clemson last year? Gave up 550 yards of offense.
How did Coach Roof do versus Clemson last year? Gave up 537 yards of offense.

So I think I have proven your thesis that cherry picking stats is not going to tell us who the better defensive coaches are.

Cherry picking stats is a straw man. Nobody but you just now has suggested that.

There are def efficiency stats, and metrics which account for opposition strength.

Total yards like you cited ignores that CU had 3 more drives vs bama than vs us.

 

[Northeast Stinger]

Cherry picking stats is a straw man. Nobody but you just now has suggested that.

There are def efficiency stats, and metrics which account for opposition strength.

Total yards like you cited ignores that CU had 3 more drives vs bama than vs us.

I was just proving a point about cherry picking.

Cherry picking is cherry picking. What makes something not cherry picking is when you have pretty much exhausted all the variables. In the previous conversation what I heard was that everyone was admitting that they did not know all the variables with regard to talent, coaching ability and so forth. Therefore to simply say that Roof produces defenses ranked around 60th in the nation is itself a kind of cherry picking.

Now, if someone has more information that proves conclusively that Roof is either elite or mediocre (those are the two options presented so far) then that makes everything else said up to this point a kind of cherry picking, or, at best, a good guess.

One person claims personal knowledge of Roof and his coaching ability. This person also exhibits coaching expertise and knowledge. That is evidence that some accept and some reject. Those who accept or reject that notion do not do so based on superior evidence. They do so, at best, with very incomplete evidence. The bias shows in how one cherry picks that evidence.

And all I am doing is playing devil's advocate.

 

[AE 87]

I was just proving a point about cherry picking.

Cherry picking is cherry picking. What makes something not cherry picking is when you have pretty much exhausted all the variables. In the previous conversation what I heard was that everyone was admitting that they did not know all the variables with regard to talent, coaching ability and so forth. Therefore to simply say that Roof produces defenses ranked around 60th in the nation is itself a kind of cherry picking.

Now, if someone has more information that proves conclusively that Roof is either elite or mediocre (those are the two options presented so far) then that makes everything else said up to this point a kind of cherry picking, or, at best, a good guess.

One person claims personal knowledge of Roof and his coaching ability. This person also exhibits coaching expertise and knowledge. That is evidence that some accept and some reject. Those who accept or reject that notion do not do so based on superior evidence. They do so, at best, with very incomplete evidence. The bias shows in how one cherry picks that evidence.

And all I am doing is playing devil's advocate.

Fine. You missed my point, but it's clearly a useless exercise to attempt discussion.

 

[33jacket]

So I have said this a million times. What validates roof as a mediocre at best coach for me is the tape I see on gameday. Forget the rankings, but the rankings help support what I see. When others not involved with the program, that evaluate players, also point out the oddities of our D scheme and logic totally independent, it is more validation to that point I am making. When ex players at GT, say the same thing, its more validation too.

Could everyone be wrong? Sure. Could the stats have some unique circumstance behind his rankings (Despite 4 schools and a decade) sure. Could all the people observing what they observe on the field on saturdays for many years (3-4 now just a tech) be wrong; all formulating the same opinion independently? Sure.

but for me. I will stick with my opinion. He is at best a mediocre/avg coach who can have a flash in the pan D every 5 or 6 years but for the most part, what he has shown at GT is who he is and what he will be. Which is not that great

these are my opinions. I have the same or similar about Sewak. What hurts roof on his D scheme is a very un-inventive style that has no backend complexity; basic blitz packages; simple backend coverage schemes with little to no masking that often times exposes the DB's. Furthermore, his un-aggressive style in coverage kills our ability to play D, which by nature needs to be aggressive, and due to this, he will consistently give up yardage, 3rd down conversions, and untimely points, all worse than can be due to crap scheming. Also pointed out by CPJ, stating, that it needs to change and be more aggressive. And when you statistically look at it...this is exactly what you see...bad 3rd down percentages, high yardages, high offensive efficiency vs us.

The amazing thing, with those who defend roof, is paul said himself, that our D is unacceptable. He said we need to look at the scheme, its way to passive at times, that our 3rd down performance is consistently bad and we need to look at why, and our inability to get pressure continues to be an issue. Much of this can be improved, with a better coach. Some of it....will flatline due to some talent gaps...this I admit. But we are better in talent than #100 or 80 in the NCAA....and thats my point. We are underperforming to who we have.