Stansbury

orientalnc

Helluva Engineer
Retired Staff
Messages
10,040
Location
Oriental, NC
I "liked" all of the posts above mine 1) Because they were measured and thought out and 2) Because they are from posters who have been around this blog for a loooong time. Not necessarily implying they are older- they may very well be- but judging by the number of their posts they are NOT newbies, or trolls.
May I suggest one other factor that might be playing a part in all the blow back TStan received ? It's not as important as all the content, just a less obvious factor.
The WORLD is divided - and very vocal about it- today ! People complain about everything they don't completely agree with , on all sorts of platforms .
Politics, covid, climate change, race relations, religion, law enforcement .......you name it. Civility, agreeing to disagree, keeping at least some of our thoughts to ourselves,
are things I remember learning when I was young ( 60 years ago:oops: ). I know I probably seem like a "dinosaur". Believe me, I feel like one sometimes.
Now we have become anonymous posters hiding behind our screens, spewing out our frustrations, posting things we would likely NEVER say to each other's face.
IMO, it's a lost sense of general acceptance and courtesy toward others that does not bode well for our future as a society. I used to think i had the makings of a
"Southern Gentleman ' if I smoothed off a couple of rough edges- and it was something admirable to aspire to...............back then. Sigh
Hear! Hear!

200.gif
 

MidtownJacket

Moderator
Staff member
Messages
4,873
I "liked" all of the posts above mine 1) Because they were measured and thought out and 2) Because they are from posters who have been around this blog for a loooong time. Not necessarily implying they are older- they may very well be- but judging by the number of their posts they are NOT newbies, or trolls.
May I suggest one other factor that might be playing a part in all the blow back TStan received ? It's not as important as all the content, just a less obvious factor.
The WORLD is divided - and very vocal about it- today ! People complain about everything they don't completely agree with , on all sorts of platforms .
Politics, covid, climate change, race relations, religion, law enforcement .......you name it. Civility, agreeing to disagree, keeping at least some of our thoughts to ourselves,
are things I remember learning when I was young ( 60 years ago:oops: ). I know I probably seem like a "dinosaur". Believe me, I feel like one sometimes.
Now we have become anonymous posters hiding behind our screens, spewing out our frustrations, posting things we would likely NEVER say to each other's face.
IMO, it's a lost sense of general acceptance and courtesy toward others that does not bode well for our future as a society. I used to think i had the makings of a
"Southern Gentleman ' if I smoothed off a couple of rough edges- and it was something admirable to aspire to...............back then. Sigh
It is always easier to throw stones from the sideline than it is to move boulders on the field.

I appreciate when people (even that I strongly disagree with) present their view in a way that allows us to engage and discuss not just dig into our trench and lob verbal grenades at eachother - crazier still because we should be in the same trench together defending the GT.

So yeah, 100%.
 

Jim Prather

Helluva Engineer
Messages
1,043
It is always easier to throw stones from the sideline than it is to move boulders on the field.

I appreciate when people (even that I strongly disagree with) present their view in a way that allows us to engage and discuss not just dig into our trench and lob verbal grenades at eachother - crazier still because we should be in the same trench together defending the GT.

So yeah, 100%.
Just think of it like a family. You are allowed to yell at, insult, fight with, etc. your siblings, but no one outside the family is allowed to.
 

Sheboygan

Helluva Engineer
Messages
1,121
Location
Oostburg Wis. ( It's DUTCH !)
It is always easier to throw stones from the sideline than it is to move boulders on the field.

I appreciate when people (even that I strongly disagree with) present their view in a way that allows us to engage and discuss not just dig into our trench and lob verbal grenades at eachother - crazier still because we should be in the same trench together defending the GT.

So yeah, 100%.
AMEN, brutha'
 

orientalnc

Helluva Engineer
Retired Staff
Messages
10,040
Location
Oriental, NC
It is always easier to throw stones from the sideline than it is to move boulders on the field.

I appreciate when people (even that I strongly disagree with) present their view in a way that allows us to engage and discuss not just dig into our trench and lob verbal grenades at eachother - crazier still because we should be in the same trench together defending the GT.

So yeah, 100%.
A couple of threads away is a 285 page debris field of thrown stones. There are a few in this thread as well. Your post and the one by @Sheboygan above are rare examples of the civil discourse we could be enjoying. Thanks.
 

lv20gt

Helluva Engineer
Messages
5,585
I can’t speak for anyone else but my point about doing a better job phrasing the letter had everything to do with the way the leader or our athletic department sounded. It had nothing to do with it doing anything to convince anyone of anything about our coach.


Could he have phrased it better? Maybe. It wouldn't have made any significant difference. But the idea that it was the phrasing and not the content of the letter that invoked the reaction it got is just silly.

If he says nothing or just a short token response people would complain that he isn't communicating at all.

If he was brutally honest and said the things that are said here about the season, then said he was keeping Collins regardless, people would have been just as pissed and wonder how he could justify keeping Collins if the rest was true.

If he flat out came out and said that we don't have the money to fire collins and find a good replacement, and only kept him because we wouldn't be able to lure anyone else, well anyone want to argue that would be better?

His letter wasn't gaslighting anyone. He wasn't insulting anyone's intelligence (as a tangent, the only people who I've ever met concerned with having their intelligence insulted, grossly overestimated how much they had to begin with). He didn't make things worse or pour fuel on the fire. I know you aren't the one that said those by the way.

He made the decision to keep Collins. That is what pissed people off and no matter what he wrote, as long as that was the case, people were going to nitpick it and act like it was a poorly worded letter. We have people who are heavily critcial of stupid stuff that makes no impact as well as down right petty things like Collins' choice of jeans. If you don't think they'd find something to complain about in the letter then you're dreaming. Let's look at the parts of the letter that people are most likely to complain about.

"Our performance in the final two games of the season were especially disappointing and were a step back. However, progress was still apparent at many points during the course of the season, highlighted by the fact that we had the ball with a chance to win or tie the game in the fourth quarter of six of our losses. That does not make the final results any less frustrating or disappointing, but the margin for error has been shrunk significantly. We now need to close it.”"

People have responded to his claim that he saw progress in the games prior to our last two by pointing to the last two games. That doesn't make any sense. It's like if I said my diet has gotten better because I've cut out wings and pizza and the response is no it hasn't because I still drink beer. There was progress. And there was a dumpsterfire two games afterwards. Those two aren't mutually exclusive statements like some want to believe.

TStan made the point that the progress he saw this year was that in 6 of our losses we had a chance to take the lead in the fourth quarter. Last year in our losses that was true of just the NCSU game I believe. So we were closer this year to winning those games we lost than we were last year. That is progress. As he pointed out, the progress wasn't enough to turn those from losses to wins which is the ultimate goal, but that is why he stated that we need to close that it. And if it's untrue then correct me. If it's not untrue though then what are people complaining about? You can argue whether it's enough progress to justify keeping Collins for another year, but that doesn't make what he said inaccurate, misleading or anything else of the sort.

People are annoyed because of the talk over recruiting, and the infrastructure talk, but he's not wrong. Two of the three classes under Collins, as of the time of the post, were a step up in recruiting. Even if you think he's terrible, that much isn't really up for debate. He has shown we can attract more talent to GT than some argued before. And that is a very relevant point considering the obvious focus of the hire initially was to do exactly that.

People complain about the references to Pastner and the others that took time, and scoff at it but in year 3 with Pastner we were under .500 overall and 6-12 in conference. Then to start year 4-5 including an 18 point blow out loss to Ball State. People were complaining not just about the performance, but the relative lack of recruiting, etc etc etc. A year and a half later we're cutting down the nets and have a very well put together roster. And now people will say "yeah but this and yeah but that" and at the time, very few people were defending Pastner. I'll let you guess who one of them was though. So again, it's relevant to talk about because the timing was similar and that is in a sport that is much easier to turn around quick because of the smaller number of players involved. I know some people have a visceral reaction to the word transition because they break out in hives at anything that could possible be construed as a slight against Johnson. That is on them not TStan.

Hell, we've had people claim that TStan blamed us when he did the exact opposite. He bent over backwards to give credit to the fanbase for donations to help level the playing field as one of his reasons for optimism.

The criticisms of his phrasing are akin to those who complain about "money down" the "ATL chart" and the like about Collins. It's meaningless complaints because they want something else to complain about that if fixed wouldn't change anything other than making those same people look for the something else petty to complain about.
 

jojatk

Helluva Engineer
Messages
1,618
Could he have phrased it better? Maybe. It wouldn't have made any significant difference. But the idea that it was the phrasing and not the content of the letter that invoked the reaction it got is just silly.

If he says nothing or just a short token response people would complain that he isn't communicating at all.

If he was brutally honest and said the things that are said here about the season, then said he was keeping Collins regardless, people would have been just as pissed and wonder how he could justify keeping Collins if the rest was true.

If he flat out came out and said that we don't have the money to fire collins and find a good replacement, and only kept him because we wouldn't be able to lure anyone else, well anyone want to argue that would be better?

His letter wasn't gaslighting anyone. He wasn't insulting anyone's intelligence (as a tangent, the only people who I've ever met concerned with having their intelligence insulted, grossly overestimated how much they had to begin with). He didn't make things worse or pour fuel on the fire. I know you aren't the one that said those by the way.

He made the decision to keep Collins. That is what pissed people off and no matter what he wrote, as long as that was the case, people were going to nitpick it and act like it was a poorly worded letter. We have people who are heavily critcial of stupid stuff that makes no impact as well as down right petty things like Collins' choice of jeans. If you don't think they'd find something to complain about in the letter then you're dreaming. Let's look at the parts of the letter that people are most likely to complain about.

"Our performance in the final two games of the season were especially disappointing and were a step back. However, progress was still apparent at many points during the course of the season, highlighted by the fact that we had the ball with a chance to win or tie the game in the fourth quarter of six of our losses. That does not make the final results any less frustrating or disappointing, but the margin for error has been shrunk significantly. We now need to close it.”"

People have responded to his claim that he saw progress in the games prior to our last two by pointing to the last two games. That doesn't make any sense. It's like if I said my diet has gotten better because I've cut out wings and pizza and the response is no it hasn't because I still drink beer. There was progress. And there was a dumpsterfire two games afterwards. Those two aren't mutually exclusive statements like some want to believe.

TStan made the point that the progress he saw this year was that in 6 of our losses we had a chance to take the lead in the fourth quarter. Last year in our losses that was true of just the NCSU game I believe. So we were closer this year to winning those games we lost than we were last year. That is progress. As he pointed out, the progress wasn't enough to turn those from losses to wins which is the ultimate goal, but that is why he stated that we need to close that it. And if it's untrue then correct me. If it's not untrue though then what are people complaining about? You can argue whether it's enough progress to justify keeping Collins for another year, but that doesn't make what he said inaccurate, misleading or anything else of the sort.

People are annoyed because of the talk over recruiting, and the infrastructure talk, but he's not wrong. Two of the three classes under Collins, as of the time of the post, were a step up in recruiting. Even if you think he's terrible, that much isn't really up for debate. He has shown we can attract more talent to GT than some argued before. And that is a very relevant point considering the obvious focus of the hire initially was to do exactly that.

People complain about the references to Pastner and the others that took time, and scoff at it but in year 3 with Pastner we were under .500 overall and 6-12 in conference. Then to start year 4-5 including an 18 point blow out loss to Ball State. People were complaining not just about the performance, but the relative lack of recruiting, etc etc etc. A year and a half later we're cutting down the nets and have a very well put together roster. And now people will say "yeah but this and yeah but that" and at the time, very few people were defending Pastner. I'll let you guess who one of them was though. So again, it's relevant to talk about because the timing was similar and that is in a sport that is much easier to turn around quick because of the smaller number of players involved. I know some people have a visceral reaction to the word transition because they break out in hives at anything that could possible be construed as a slight against Johnson. That is on them not TStan.

Hell, we've had people claim that TStan blamed us when he did the exact opposite. He bent over backwards to give credit to the fanbase for donations to help level the playing field as one of his reasons for optimism.

The criticisms of his phrasing are akin to those who complain about "money down" the "ATL chart" and the like about Collins. It's meaningless complaints because they want something else to complain about that if fixed wouldn't change anything other than making those same people look for the something else petty to complain about.
My bad for using the wrong word to indicate my intention. When I said phrasing I meant what he said as well as how he said it. You’re absolutely right that the content and not just the presentation is critical.
 

orientalnc

Helluva Engineer
Retired Staff
Messages
10,040
Location
Oriental, NC
The criticisms of his phrasing are akin to those who complain about "money down" the "ATL chart" and the like about Collins. It's meaningless complaints because they want something else to complain about that if fixed wouldn't change anything other than making those same people look for the something else petty to complain about.
I agree with you for most of what you posted. People are angry about three straight three win seasons. We used get irritated by six or seven win seasons. Collins has an unusual style and it's easy to be angry about anything when your team is losing 55-0 and 45-0. I am angry about the losses. But to say Todd's wording was not an issue is something I disagree about. He wasn't going to publicly state that he would have fired Collins save the cost of doing so. But he made it sound as if he is pretty much satisfied with where we are. Yes, we were really close in six games and our record could have been a lot better with only a few plays going the other way. But, we stunk up the yard at ND and at home the following week. Our own fans stayed away. Worse, they sold or gave their tickets to uga faithful. Those fans deserved to hear that Todd is also angry and frustrated. He missed his chance to make it better.
 

Root4GT

Helluva Engineer
Messages
3,348
I agree with you for most of what you posted. People are angry about three straight three win seasons. We used get irritated by six or seven win seasons. Collins has an unusual style and it's easy to be angry about anything when your team is losing 55-0 and 45-0. I am angry about the losses. But to say Todd's wording was not an issue is something I disagree about. He wasn't going to publicly state that he would have fired Collins save the cost of doing so. But he made it sound as if he is pretty much satisfied with where we are. Yes, we were really close in six games and our record could have been a lot better with only a few plays going the other way. But, we stunk up the yard at ND and at home the following week. Our own fans stayed away. Worse, they sold or gave their tickets to uga faithful. Those fans deserved to hear that Todd is also angry and frustrated. He missed his chance to make it better.
I think IV20 nailed it. Not much else an AD can say. He was clear the results weren't good enough but also clear he is not ready to dump Collins and staff. You may not like that but it's reality and it what he clearly said in his letter.
 

orientalnc

Helluva Engineer
Retired Staff
Messages
10,040
Location
Oriental, NC
I think IV20 nailed it. Not much else an AD can say. He was clear the results weren't good enough but also clear he is not ready to dump Collins and staff. You may not like that but it's reality and it what he clearly said in his letter.
I agree with you and lv20gt that the words he used told the truth. It's the feel of it that didn't work. And upset a lot of people.
 

RonJohn

Helluva Engineer
Messages
5,044
TStan made the point that the progress he saw this year was that in 6 of our losses we had a chance to take the lead in the fourth quarter. Last year in our losses that was true of just the NCSU game I believe. So we were closer this year to winning those games we lost than we were last year. That is progress.
Blame the frustration on old fans who just don't like the "Money Down" if you want to, but how many of those losses would have been wins if the coaches didn't make silly mistakes that no other coaches I have ever seen make? If the defense had not been looking at the sidelines for the coverage call until after the ball was snapped, I have zero doubt that we would have won the NIU game. There were mistakes by players in the game. However, it is not conscionable that fundamental mistakes with substitutions and getting a play call in happen several times with a P5 coaching staff. We still had those same systematic issues in the 11th game of the season at ND. Someone can tell me that the team progressed during the season, but I saw coaching mistakes that should never happen happen. Then I saw the same coaching mistakes that should never happen not get corrected all season. Is it "progress" to make the same inexcusable systematic mistakes fewer times later in the season?

I am not saying that there are not any positions that need bigger and more athletic players. I am not saying that the players never made mistakes. I am saying that I have a hard time understanding how the staff will turn the team around if they can't even do simplistic coaching functions such as decide which play to run before the play clock expires.

I don't know that there is anything that TStan could have said in an email that would make fans feel better. The short statement that @orientalnc posted would have probably been better than a longer statement that attempted to explain away the bad season, but I don't know that would have been accepted much better. Many fans are extremely frustrated with the coaching. The marketing speech and "Money Down" probably cause some people to feel even worse, but don't discount the actual coaching and game management issues that have been apparent for three years. (Those issues were probably most apparent in the NIU game this year than in any other game of the last three years.)
 

forensicbuzz

21st Century Throwback Dad
Messages
9,048
Location
North Shore, Chicago
I agree 100%. I made my post about a guarantee and a refund tongue-in-cheek. It would be interesting to ask TStan that hypothetically to see if if he really buys into what his letter says.

I also agree with Stech81 that we should support the team with more than money, we should also show up. Being at BDS last Saturday was embarrassing. The people that voluntarily didn’t go or, even worse, sold their tickets to dwag fans were only hurting GT. Imagine what a recruit or even a current player thought when they saw the sea of red.

Now, back to TStan….
I was just using your post as a platform, not coming down on you specifically.
 

DavidStandingBear

Jolly Good Fellow
Messages
311
Location
McKinney TX
In the off season I’m really hoping that Todd and Geoff can do a Waffle House Wednesday together and have a calorie consumption contest. Would be an awesome show of support !
 

lv20gt

Helluva Engineer
Messages
5,585
But he made it sound as if he is pretty much satisfied with where we are.


"three wins does not meet the standards of Georgia Tech Football"
"Our performances the last two games of the season were especially disappointing and a step back"
"this season was frustrating, disappointing, and did not meet the standards of Georgia Tech football"

He made it clear that he wasn't satisfied with where we are overall. Just because he didn't sound like a raving message board poster drunk at 4 pm on a tuesday doesn't change that.

He sounded satisfied with specific areas like the improvements in facilities, technoology, staffing, and the like as well as recruiting. With the exception of maybe staffing where we might still be well behind the curve, I dont know how we stack up, should he not be satisfied with those specific things? Has our recruiting, or maybe roster building is a better summary of what he referred to, not been improved? Are the facility upgrades we've had bad or the technology we use in a bad place?


Our own fans stayed away. Worse, they sold or gave their tickets to uga faithful. Those fans deserved to hear that Todd is also angry and frustrated. He missed his chance to make it better.

He literally stated the season was frustrating.

What you are really getting at is some fans wanted him to sound like the stuff you read here or would more likely to find in a blog. They didn't want a letter from the AD. They wanted a rant from a pissed off fan. Unfortunately, as the athletic director, TStan had to put out the letter of an AD and not the ramblings of a pissed off fan. Again, there was nothing he could have done to make that better in this letter.

how many of those losses would have been wins if the coaches didn't make silly mistakes that no other coaches I have ever seen make

I can guarantee you that the mistakes you are referring to, no matter how silly, other coaches have made. Hell, I'm willing to bet you could find examples from this past week alone of those mistakes you think you've never seen before. Looking to the sideline trying to get a play as the ball was snapped? You really think that is a unqiue mistake nobody has made? There have been tons of examples of players not knowing they need to be on the field when a play is snapped much less looking to get coverage.

But that is really besides the point.

There are plenty of legitimate complaints to be made about the staff and you could spend hours going over them. There is no reason for people to complain about the petty things they do like the ATL chart, "money down" or the fashion style Collin's chooses. Those things being complained about just prove that no matter how many valid complaints there are to talk about, some people just want something new to moan about and they'll dig until they find something regardless. This is what is happening with TStan's letter. It is a stock standard, paint by the numbers, AD when keeping a struggling coach letter. There is nothing particularly noteworthy about it. The response to it should be, well that tells us nothing, and move on. But because people are pissed people will dig until they find something to complain about with it.
 

Root4GT

Helluva Engineer
Messages
3,348
I agree with you and lv20gt that the words he used told the truth. It's the feel of it that didn't work. And upset a lot of people.
How would you have made it feel different? Honest question as I don't think it was possible to make it feel much different after the last 2 games.
 

ibeattetris

Helluva Engineer
Messages
3,606
Three wins does not meet the standards of Georgia Tech football....However, progress was still apparent at many points during the course of the season, highlighted by the fact that we had the ball with a chance to win or tie the game in the fourth quarter of six of our losses. That does not make the final results any less frustrating or disappointing, but the margin for error has been shrunk significantly. We now need to close it.
...
we knew from the beginning that this transition would require time and patience to build our program the right way

If this weren't in the letter, I'd be fine with it. Don't say something is "does not meet the standards" and then spend a paragraph trying to polish the turd of a season. Also, bringing up the transition as an excuse in year three when going 3-9 with some really bad losses is just pathetic. The transition didn't cause our defense to be putrid in year three nor did it cause wasted timeouts preceding false starts.
 

SOWEGA Jacket

Helluva Engineer
Messages
2,111
I think what really rubs GT fans the wrong way is Collins reactions. He never gets pissed. He just acts. If just a couple of times he would show his true emotions instead of pretending. No way he isn’t pissed when DB’s continuously let WR’s behind them. Yet, we all see the fake love instead of him just being real. The 2nd play of the ND game we gave up a simple slant to a TE for 38 yards. Everyone of us was going apesh!t because we have seen this for 3 straight years. Yet Thacker and Collins act like it never happened. It’s just weird. Kirby, Saban, Lincoln, Cutcliffe, would have been throwing headsets or smashing the DC’s head with a brick. We’ve endure 3 years of watching our coach act. It’s easy to say “we address those things privately“. Well it ain’t working because the first real play of the game a TE was uncovered. The first UGA TD was the same. Yet, our coach puts on an act. And if he truly doesn’t get pissed watching his career go up in flames then what kind of competitor is he?
 

Recleb

Georgia Tech Fan
Messages
54
I think what really rubs GT fans the wrong way is Collins reactions. He never gets pissed. He just acts. If just a couple of times he would show his true emotions instead of pretending. No way he isn’t pissed when DB’s continuously let WR’s behind them. Yet, we all see the fake love instead of him just being real. The 2nd play of the ND game we gave up a simple slant to a TE for 38 yards. Everyone of us was going apesh!t because we have seen this for 3 straight years. Yet Thacker and Collins act like it never happened. It’s just weird. Kirby, Saban, Lincoln, Cutcliffe, would have been throwing headsets or smashing the DC’s head with a brick. We’ve endure 3 years of watching our coach act. It’s easy to say “we address those things privately“. Well it ain’t working because the first real play of the game a TE was uncovered. The first UGA TD was the same. Yet, our coach puts on an act. And if he truly doesn’t get pissed watching his career go up in flames then what kind of competitor is he?
I understand keeping internal accountability in the locker room, but the apparent lack of reaction you reference seems part of the “mushroom” (in the dark, fed BS) treatment we fans are picking up from this staff. No-call coach’s radio show, non-stop coach speak at press conferences - we’re all just dying for something real from this guy to give us the slightest reason to have confidence that he’ll pull this s*** together.
 

RonJohn

Helluva Engineer
Messages
5,044
I Ian guarantee you that the mistakes you are referring to, no matter how silly, other coaches have made. Hell, I'm willing to bet you could find examples from this past week alone of those mistakes you think you've never seen before. Looking to the sideline trying to get a play as the ball was snapped? You really think that is a unqiue mistake nobody has made? There have been tons of examples of players not knowing they need to be on the field when a play is snapped much less looking to get coverage.
Have I ever seen a team with a late defensive substitution get a penalty? Yes. Have I ever seen a defensive coverage call be late? Yes. Have I ever seen another team continue to have lazy substitutions thru a complete game? No. Have I ever seen defensive coaches continue to signal in the coverage late thru an entire game and then continue to have issues with it in spots thru an entire season? No.

Have I ever seen a late offensive substitution or late play signal? Yes. Have I ever seen such issues continue thru an entire season? No. Have I ever seen a team have a late substitution, then a late play signal, call timeout, then after a false start substitute on offense with 11 seconds, not signal the play in until under 3 seconds, have motion in the play that was called in and get a delay of game? Not until two weeks ago.

What I see are not simple mistakes that the coaches are making. There is a level of systematic incompetence. It was extremely apparent in the NIU game, and it was never corrected.
 
Top