Spring Position Battle - WR

dressedcheeseside

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Dude...you have no proof of what Nesbitt would have been in another offense. All you have to go by is him playing in an offense that has a history of QBs not doing well in the passing game. If you're going to make an assumption that Nesbitt could only play in CPJ's offense and no one else's than by all means you're welcome to it.

The guy put up phenominal numbers in HS, and didn't throw many interceptions when he threw TWICE as many passes than he did at GT. Evidence on that level suggests he would have been a good QB in a system like Urban Meyer's, or Oregon's, or Nevada's. Those guys have a great track record of developing Dual threat QBs in the passing AND running game. Unfortunately, we can't say the same about our offense.

Again...yeesh...
Again, Tevin developed into a better passer than Nesbitt, oh and looky, looky, it was in the SAME offense. Go Figure.

Another fact you dismissed without reply is the fact he had Bay Bay to chuck jump balls to. Ever notice every deep ball was a jumpball and not caught in stride? I wonder why? Wonder what his completion % would have been sans future all Pro Thomas?
 
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franklinjacket

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I think the biggest reason Nesbitt's completion percentage isn't very good is we mostly asked him to just throw it deep down the field. Completion percentages for most QBs are inflated by easy short and mid throws. The smoke route to Thomas were really the only short throws we attempted. It wasn't until Tevin (who had a much weaker arm and couldn't get the ball down the field well) that we started adding more intermediate stuff.

I am positive that in another system Nesbitt would have been able to develop a better rhythm (another thing our QBs don't get in our system) and put up very solid passing numbers. He wouldn't have been a Cam Newton, but I'd be shocked if he wasn't as productive as Nick Marshall (2000 yards passing, 59%, 1000 yards rushing).
 

Boomergump

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Despite the emotion this is a good discussion. I want to reinforce Franklin's point that you can't really compare completion percentages in our offense, to other QBs, to determine how well CPJ's guys have been throwing, or how well he has been developing them. For the most part, we have a vertical passing game. Other team's slip screens, dinks, and dunks are replaced by pitches or tosses in our offense, which don't effect passing stats. If you could somehow compare completion percentages on other teams' throws over 10 yards you might have a valid point to make. Or better yet, every time we run a rocket toss, consider it a completion and then compare. We need to pass better, don't get me wrong, but it would be pretty easy for me to use GT's average yards per attempt (or completion) and use that to make the argument that other coaches aren't developing their QBs. Look at how much shorter their completions are. I can hear it now from fans on other sites, "Heck GT never practices throwing and they are beating us by 6 yards a throw". You have to look at efficiency and the overall impact of the passing game. IMHO, we are very good (effective) passing out of play action (on run downs) and we are terrible when teams know we need to pass.

In discussing Nesbitt, like everybody else, I love what he did for GT and he is one of my heroes. With that said, he was never a passer and was never going to be a passer. If you think otherwise, then you really don't know what you are looking for when critiquing passers of the football. I hate to be so blunt. Josh was blessed with a strong arm, but after that, he lacked pretty much every other necessary ingredient besides buying time with his feet. Touch, leading receivers, seeing the field, body alignment and mechanics, anticipating receivers coming into open spaces etc all eluded him. It was ridiculous how much he would miss people by sometimes. Cheese is right. If you take away the wild heave 60 yard jump balls to BeyBey, what do you have? 25% completions at best? There are many baseball players, with absolute guns for arms, that will NEVER, EVER be pitchers. Josh is one of those, in a football sense. Any scouting reports of Josh, whether in HS or college, describing him as a good passer, should just be crumpled up and thrown away. They aren't worth the paper they were written on. They are just some hack who needs to write something for the subscribers. I am sure we took him because he was a nasty football player, first. We probably got him because we were the only place to give him a shot at QB.
 

GTNavyNuke

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I like Smelter and Autry to start. Messick as #3.

To the discussion of the short passing game, the play that will stick in my mind about Vad is his horrible loss of accuracy this year epitomized by the first throw of the bowl game over Waller who never moved. If we ever get a decent passer with touch (like Vad in 2012), we will open up the play book.
 

ATL1

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Despite the emotion this is a good discussion. I want to reinforce Franklin's point that you can't really compare completion percentages in our offense, to other QBs, to determine how well CPJ's guys have been throwing, or how well he has been developing them. For the most part, we have a vertical passing game. Other team's slip screens, dinks, and dunks are replaced by pitches or tosses in our offense, which don't effect passing stats. If you could somehow compare completion percentages on other teams' throws over 10 yards you might have a valid point to make. Or better yet, every time we run a rocket toss, consider it a completion and then compare. We need to pass better, don't get me wrong, but it would be pretty easy for me to use GT's average yards per attempt (or completion) and use that to make the argument that other coaches aren't developing their QBs. Look at how much shorter their completions are. I can hear it now from fans on other sites, "Heck GT never practices throwing and they are beating us by 6 yards a throw". You have to look at efficiency and the overall impact of the passing game. IMHO, we are very good (effective) passing out of play action (on run downs) and we are terrible when teams know we need to pass.

In discussing Nesbitt, like everybody else, I love what he did for GT and he is one of my heroes. With that said, he was never a passer and was never going to be a passer. If you think otherwise, then you really don't know what you are looking for when critiquing passers of the football. I hate to be so blunt. Josh was blessed with a strong arm, but after that, he lacked pretty much every other necessary ingredient besides buying time with his feet. Touch, leading receivers, seeing the field, body alignment and mechanics, anticipating receivers coming into open spaces etc all eluded him. It was ridiculous how much he would miss people by sometimes. Cheese is right. If you take away the wild heave 60 yard jump balls to BeyBey, what do you have? 25% completions at best? There are many baseball players, with absolute guns for arms, that will NEVER, EVER be pitchers. Josh is one of those, in a football sense. Any scouting reports of Josh, whether in HS or college, describing him as a good passer, should just be crumpled up and thrown away. They aren't worth the paper they were written on. They are just some hack who needs to write something for the subscribers. I am sure we took him because he was a nasty football player, first. We probably got him because we were the only place to give him a shot at QB.

Here are some thoughts.
Is a toss sweep a more effective way of getting a player in space and pushing ball down field as opposed to say a wr bubble screen?
Would a more developed screen and short passing game help not only the completion percentages but the passing efficiency as well? (I believe Boyd & Manzell were high in both)
Would Nesbit were developed in the type of offense that utilized a more diverse passing attack? I don't think Nesbitt is/was any less talented a passer as say Tim Tebow. (No that is not a stretch)

I'm really curious if you were to subtract short passing plays how would GT stack up, I personally don't expect the results to be favorable for GT.
 

Techster

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I did some research, how do you think I got the rivals quote? The services don't show which position they want a kid. I distinctly remember everybody else wanting him at safety, your "doubts" notwithstanding.

Who's everybody else? The only school I know for a fact that only wanted him at safety was UGA...and that's the reason Nesbitt came to GT. I don't have any memberships to the paid services, but I'm sure they have threads detailing his recruitment in 2007. Nesbitt was one of the top QBs at that time, you have got to be delusional if you think one of the top dual threat guys in the NATION only had a QB offer from GT.

So again...outside of UGA...who is "everybody else"? Please show evidence...all you showed me was a board quote telling me of JN's strength's and weaknesses. The funny thing is, it's the same source from services you're saying "how wrong they were". Kinda contradicting yourself there, arent' you?
 

dressedcheeseside

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Who's everybody else? The only school I know for a fact that only wanted him at safety was UGA...and that's the reason Nesbitt came to GT. I don't have any memberships to the paid services, but I'm sure they have threads detailing his recruitment in 2007. Nesbitt was one of the top QBs at that time, you have got to be delusional if you think one of the top dual threat guys in the NATION only had a QB offer from GT.

So again...outside of UGA...who is "everybody else"? Please show evidence...all you showed me was a board quote telling me of JN's strength's and weaknesses. The funny thing is, it's the same source from services you're saying "how wrong they were". Kinda contradicting yourself there, arent' you?
We're just gonna have to disagree on the first point because there's no way to prove it either way. I checked rivals and scout and they just list offers, they don't break it down as to what position. You tell me who else offered him at qb. Anybody on the board for that matter.

The rivals review I quoted was ironic, imo, because it almost omitted any mention of what most qb's are noted for, passing. The first line is, and I quote "Explosive athlete." The second sentence, again, mentions nothing of passing, nor does the third sentence. It's all about running. Then finally one little blurb about strong arm and accuracy between 15 and 25 yards.(This is the part I disagree with from watching him play for 4 years.) Then all the rest is about intangibles and playing positions other than qb.
 

Techster

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Again, Tevin developed into a better passer than Nesbitt, oh and looky, looky, it was in the SAME offense. Go Figure.

Another fact you dismissed without reply is the fact he had Bay Bay to chuck jump balls to. Ever notice every deep ball was a jumpball and not caught in stride? I wonder why? Wonder what his completion % would have been sans future all Pro Thomas?

Tevin was a better passer? Maybe in some instances. He had better anticipation and he understood our passing concepts better, but check the stats and the situations he was under pressure to win (VT 2010, VT 2012, MTSU 2012, FSU in the ACCCG) do you really want to make a case that Tevin proves our passing offense develops QBs?

What about BeyBey? A good QB takes advantage of mismatches...it's not like all JN did was throw passes to him all day. It's no different than Manziel looking for Mike Evans in clutch situations, or when Matthew Stafford looked for AJ Green. Nesbitt made some outstanding throws while he was here:


Oh, and by the way, Nesbitt did all that in behind everyone on these messageboards considers GT's most ill-suited offensive line in CPJ's time at GT. Look how many times he was running for his life in those highlights.

You can believe what you want, but answer this:
-What percentage of CPJ QB's have passed for over 50%?
-How many CPJ QBs have passed for 2,000 yards? Heck, how many in CPJ's almost 30 years coaching have passed for over 1500 yards?
-How many of CPJ QBs were even given an opportunity to go an NFL training camp at QB...let's not even mention being drafted.
-Why do top tier QB recruits avoid this offense like the plague?
-How many CPJ QBs were all conference (hint Nesbitt was one of them).
-Why is it that Nesbitt is on record saying had CPJ been here, he wouldn't have signed with GT?
-Why is it, that a starter and supposed guy who was suppose to take this offense to the next level, decided to transfer down a level to play QB? On his way out, he specifically cited our offense as not developing him for what his aspirations are?

It's pretty obvious...if you do research, it's more likely that our offense didn't fully develop Nesbitt's passing ability to it's fullest potential, than it was Josh who didn't have the ability. Would Nesbitt have been the next Peyton Manning? Heck no...but it doesn't mean if he went to another offense that needs a dual threat QB (like the ones I stated in a previous post) he wouldn't have shined as both a passer and a runner. I mean, the guy threw 13 passes his freshmen season and had about as many TD passes (1) in Gailey's offense than he did in CPJ's offense throwing 123 passes (2 TDs) as a sophomore. Josh only played a series or two each game as a freshmen!
 
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Techster

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We're just gonna have to disagree on the first point because there's no way to prove it either way. I checked rivals and scout and they just list offers, they don't break it down as to what position. You tell me who else offered him at qb. Anybody on the board for that matter.

The rivals review I quoted was ironic, imo, because it almost omitted any mention of what most qb's are noted for, passing. The first line is, and I quote "Explosive athlete." The second sentence, again, mentions nothing of passing, nor does the third sentence. It's all about running. Then finally one little blurb about strong arm and accuracy between 15 and 25 yards.(This is the part I disagree with from watching him play for 4 years.) Then all the rest is about intangibles and playing positions other than qb.

If you "distinctly remember everyone else wanting him at safety" it should be easy to prove.
 

dressedcheeseside

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Tevin was a better passer? Maybe in some instances. He had better anticipation and he understood our passing concepts better, but check the stats and the situations he was under pressure to win (VT 2010, VT 2012, MTSU 2012, FSU in the ACCCG) do you really want to make a case that Tevin proves our passing offense develops QBs?

What about BeyBey? A good QB takes advantage of mismatches...it's not like all JN did was throw passes to him all day. It's no different than Manziel looking for Mike Evans in clutch situations, or when Matthew Stafford looked for AJ Green. Nesbitt made some outstanding throws while he was here:


Oh, and by the way, Nesbitt did all that in behind everyone on these messageboards considers GT's most ill-suited offensive line in CPJ's time at GT. Look how many times he was running for his life in those highlights.

You can believe what you want, but answer this:
-What percentage of CPJ QB's have passed for over 50%?
-How many CPJ QBs have passed for 2,000 yards? Heck, how many in CPJ's almost 30 years coaching have passed for over 1500 yards?
-How many of CPJ QBs were even given an opportunity to go an NFL training camp at QB...let's not even mention being drafted.
-Why do top tier QB recruits avoid this offense like the plague?
-How many CPJ QBs were all conference (hint Nesbitt was one of them).
-Why is it that Nesbitt is on record saying had CPJ been here, he wouldn't have signed with GT?
-Why is it, that a starter and supposed guy who was suppose to take this offense to the next level, decided to transfer down a level to play QB? On his way out, he specifically cited our offense as not developing him for what his aspirations are?

It's pretty obvious...if you do research, it's more likely that our offense didn't fully develop Nesbitt's passing ability to it's fullest potential, than it was Josh who didn't have the ability. Would Nesbitt have been the next Peyton Manning? Heck no...but it doesn't mean if he went to another offense that needs a dual threat QB (like the ones I stated in a previous post) he wouldn't have shined as both a passer and a runner. I mean, the guy threw 13 passes his freshmen season and had about as many TD passes (1) in Gailey's offense than he did in CPJ's offense throwing 123 passes (2 TDs) as a sophomore. Josh only played a series or two as a freshmen!
Now we're getting down to brass tacks and this is what I suspected from the start. This has very little to do with Josh Nesbitt and everything to do with your dislike for our offense. All those questions are irrelevant to our discussion of Josh Nesbitt as a college passer. He could heave a nice jump ball, I'll give you that. To me, that doesn't make a passer. Luckily for us, our offense uses all the things Josh did well and I'm very glad for that.
 

Techster

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Now we're getting down to brass tacks and this is what I suspected from the start. This has very little to do with Josh Nesbitt and everything to do with your dislike for our offense. All those questions are irrelevant to our discussion of Josh Nesbitt as a college passer. He could heave a nice jump ball, I'll give you that. To me, that doesn't make a passer. Luckily for us, our offense uses all the things Josh did well and I'm very glad for that.

Yeah, you can't answer any of my questions with facts to support any of your arguments, so you're going to change the subject to how much I hate this offense. Except, that's not true. I actually love our offense...I just realize it's shortcomings (the inability to develop a consistent passer, the inability to attract top flight dual threat QBs). It is what it is...anyone who's objective realizes that.
 

ATL1

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Tevin was a better passer? Maybe in some instances. He had better anticipation and he understood our passing concepts better, but check the stats and the situations he was under pressure to win (VT 2010, VT 2012, MTSU 2012, FSU in the ACCCG) do you really want to make a case that Tevin proves our passing offense develops QBs?

What about BeyBey? A good QB takes advantage of mismatches...it's not like all JN did was throw passes to him all day. It's no different than Manziel looking for Mike Evans in clutch situations, or when Matthew Stafford looked for AJ Green. Nesbitt made some outstanding throws while he was here:


Oh, and by the way, Nesbitt did all that in behind everyone on these messageboards considers GT's most ill-suited offensive line in CPJ's time at GT. Look how many times he was running for his life in those highlights.

You can believe what you want, but answer this:
-What percentage of CPJ QB's have passed for over 50%?
-How many CPJ QBs have passed for 2,000 yards? Heck, how many in CPJ's almost 30 years coaching have passed for over 1500 yards?
-How many of CPJ QBs were even given an opportunity to go an NFL training camp at QB...let's not even mention being drafted.
-Why do top tier QB recruits avoid this offense like the plague?
-How many CPJ QBs were all conference (hint Nesbitt was one of them).
-Why is it that Nesbitt is on record saying had CPJ been here, he wouldn't have signed with GT?
-Why is it, that a starter and supposed guy who was suppose to take this offense to the next level, decided to transfer down a level to play QB? On his way out, he specifically cited our offense as not developing him for what his aspirations are?

It's pretty obvious...if you do research, it's more likely that our offense didn't fully develop Nesbitt's passing ability to it's fullest potential, than it was Josh who didn't have the ability. Would Nesbitt have been the next Peyton Manning? Heck no...but it doesn't mean if he went to another offense that needs a dual threat QB (like the ones I stated in a previous post) he wouldn't have shined as both a passer and a runner. I mean, the guy threw 13 passes his freshmen season and had about as many TD passes (1) in Gailey's offense than he did in CPJ's offense throwing 123 passes (2 TDs) as a sophomore. Josh only played a series or two each game as a freshmen!

I don't like your post and not because I don't think you're right.
 

dressedcheeseside

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Yeah, you can't answer any of my questions with facts to support any of your arguments, so you're going to change the subject to how much I hate this offense. Except, that's not true. I actually love our offense...I just realize it's shortcomings (the inability to develop a consistent passer, the inability to attract top flight dual threat QBs). It is what it is...anyone who's objective realizes that.
GT is the reason we have a hard time attracting top flight qb's. How many top flight qb's have we had in the last 20 years? One. Joe Ham. And he wasn't highly recruited. He was a dark horse candidate that paid off. He was our Sea Biscuit. Don't look now but JT fits that very same mold. And that's what we have to be able to do because we're not the glitzy factory school the delusional half of our fanbase wants us to be.

ps. Nesbitt wasn't a passer.
 

Techster

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GT is the reason we have a hard time attracting top flight qb's. How many top flight qb's have we had in the last 20 years? One. Joe Ham. And he wasn't highly recruited. He was a dark horse candidate that paid off. He was our Sea Biscuit. Don't look now but JT fits that very same mold. And that's what we have to be able to do because we're not the glitzy factory school the delusional half of our fanbase wants us to be.

How many have we recruited to GT?

Let's see, Shawn Jones (one of the top dual threats in the Southeast), Donnie Davis (#1 dual threat, #2 overall QB), Demaryius Bilbo (top 10 dual threat). Then Gailey hit the motherload before he was canned (Nesbitt top 10 QB, Threat was top 15, Renfree was top 10). Lil' Joe was one of the top dual threats in the Southeast but that was before services.

I think that's a pretty good haul for any school, much less one that has "a hard time attracting top flight QBs".

EDIT:

I left out that Quincy Carter signed with GT before heading off to play baseball then enrolling at UGA few years later. I believe QC was a top 5 guy at the time.
 
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ATL1

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Now we're getting down to brass tacks and this is what I suspected from the start. This has very little to do with Josh Nesbitt and everything to do with your dislike for our offense. All those questions are irrelevant to our discussion of Josh Nesbitt as a college passer. He could heave a nice jump ball, I'll give you that. To me, that doesn't make a passer. Luckily for us, our offense uses all the things Josh did well and I'm very glad for that.

Just curious do you believe that a QB can develop as a passer in this offense?
Are you saying Nesbitt could have been an effective passer in a different offense or he wouldn't have been no matter the offense?
 

dressedcheeseside

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Just curious do you believe that a QB can develop as a passer in this offense?
Are you saying Nesbitt could have been an effective passer in a different offense or he wouldn't have been no matter the offense?
CPJ developed passers at Hawaii so it can be done here, too. Tracy Ham was a good passer at Southern and that was the same offense. Nesbitt wouldn't have been a good passer anywhere.
 

dressedcheeseside

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How many have we recruited to GT?

Let's see, Shawn Jones (one of the top dual threats in the Southeast), Donnie Davis (#1 dual threat, #2 overall QB), Demaryius Bilbo (top 10 dual threat). Then Gailey hit the motherload before he was canned (Nesbitt top 10 QB, Threat was top 15, Renfree was top 10). Lil' Joe was one of the top dual threats in the Southeast but that was before services.

I think that's a pretty good haul for any school, much less one that has "a hard time attracting top flight QBs".

EDIT:

I left out that Quincy Carter signed with GT before heading off to play baseball then enrolling at UGA few years later. I believe QC was a top 5 guy at the time.
OK, point taken. Nesbitt still wasn't a passer.
 

Techster

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Geezus he was ahead of Cam Newton. wow
Wonder if Nesbitt wish he could have done it differently.
Wan't this thread about receivers?

I just read the blurb on QBs:

Arguably the top prospect in the state this year is Green County's Josh Nesbitt. Nesbitt is a one man wrecking crew whenever he steps on the field. He accounted for over 400 yards of total offense and five touchdowns in the Georgia Dome shootout with Charlton County, and just for good measure, he had two interceptions as well. Nesbitt is getting recruited as a quarterback and as an athlete already, but teams would be crazy to try and take the ball out of his hands.

Cameron Newton of Westlake is a big quarterback at 6-5 and better than 200 pounds already. He has a cannon right arm and runs extremely well. He is a raw prospect with a lot of tools and a lot of "upside".

Newton was considered the more "raw" prospect of the two. Goes to show you what good coaching can do to a kid with talent. Newton is now in the NFL!
 

ATL1

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CPJ developed passers at Hawaii so it can be done here, too. Tracy Ham was a good passer at Southern and that was the same offense. Nesbitt wouldn't have been a good passer anywhere.


CAREER PASSING STATISTICS
Year Lge Team Age # GP Comp Att % YdsTDINT TD% INT% Y/G Y/ARAT
1982 NCAA Georgia Southern Eagles 17 11 26 66 39.4 316 3 2 4.5 3.0 28.7 4.8 88.6
1983 NCAA Georgia Southern Eagles 18 9 51 105 48.6 886 5 6 4.8 5.7 98.4 8.4 123.7
1984 NCAA Georgia Southern Eagles 19 11 109 220 49.5 1694 12 13 5.5 5.9 154.0 7.7 120.4
1985 NCAA Georgia Southern Eagles 20 15 134 238 56.3 2184 15 10 6.3 4.2 145.6 9.2 145.8
1986 NCAA Georgia Southern Eagles

http://www.sports-reference.com/cfb/schools/hawaii/

I pulled up his stats in Hawaii and I wouldn't say they display a consistent passing attack although there was a two year stretch of 2000+ passing yards. That kind of supports the argument that it can be done in this offense. (I had to go back to 88, 89 to find it)
You see Tracy's stats above again this is not making your case stronger.
As far as with Nesbitt if Tim Tebow can be an effective passer I see absolutely no reason why Nesbitt couldn't.
BTW contrary to popular opinion I don't hate CPJ's offense per se, I do wish it would be modified and become more balanced.
 
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