Should CPJ be the coach in 2014?

Should Paul Johnson be the GT coach in 2014


  • Total voters
    96
  • Poll closed .

Eric

Retired Co-Founder
Staff member
Messages
12,734
I think skybuzz is kind of miffed by the fact that typically your posts have been as an expert on Georgia Tech's recruiting and providing on some insider info. The posting of this thread was out of place. and slightly douche

No it was not...It is a message board. It is a topic I wanted to discuss and get the thoughts of others on. Nothing wrong with the post and it created a lot of good discussion.

I am glad I go to hear everone's thoughts on the situation.
 

gtyj18jr

Jolly Good Fellow
Messages
126
I just can't deal with obnoxious behavior online or offline. For example, you know exactly what I did and why I did it. Do think his message changed because I removed the all capital letters?

Well it doesn't stand out as much and I could better tell his anger with the all caps.
 

daBuzz

Ramblin' Wreck
Messages
965
I think skybuzz is kind of miffed by the fact that typically your posts have been as an expert on Georgia Tech's recruiting and providing on some insider info. The posting of this thread was out of place.

So now we can't even have a civil discussion about our coach or we're being out of place? Guess I'm gonna be the out of place guy then.
 

AE 87

Helluva Engineer
Messages
12,967
You answered your own question by repeating Hart's talking points. I'll respond more when I'm not on my / phone.
 

Eric

Retired Co-Founder
Staff member
Messages
12,734
I rarely read his site but I've never even him say any of that...Jim doesn't like CPJ because he blacklisted him from GT.

The things I posted are all legitimate concerns and I would say majority agree with them.
 

bat_082994

Ramblin' Wreck
Messages
986
Location
Athens, GA
I've said this before and I'll say it again: I love CPJ and his offense to death, but I have gotten to the point where I am absolutely frustrated that we don't appear to be getting any better. We've gone into Spring the last couple years saying that we are gonna be good this year, and then they come out and disappoint. I'm not trying to be a fairweather fan, but if that's what it looks like, I'm sorry. My major concern with CPJ is his lack of ability to hire a capable DC. Wommack and Groh were both terrible hires and Roof has done nothing this year except play soft coverage in a "bend but don't break" mentality, which is what frustrated me about the ATL Falcons D last year.
 

ToddM

Guest
Messages
220
Location
Locust Grove Ga
Old Jacket,

Hart runs another board, claimed to be an avid supporter then turned on the team in my view. Constantly talking them down and doubting everything they did. Really hard on CPJ but overall he spoke out of both sides of his mouth.

Eric would have to give you more on the blacklist stuff. I just know it got hard to follow his site, not because of the conversations but because of him and his bashing. Made you wonder why he bothered hosting a Tech site.


Eric,

I know we had a lot of talent in 08 & 09 but don't you think those years were an exception to the general rule ? And even with that talent we didn't accomplish that much more. Just wondering if we have gotten spoiled to 8-10 win seasons, there have been some hard times in Techs history and the recent history points to only 2 years in which it was great. Not to say I do t enjoy every year.
 

heeled soul

Georgia Tech Fan
Messages
52
folks,
do me a favor and start a campaign to get rid of PJ. when you're successful, that'd make my day.

seriously,
i think his offense fits the tech fan base to a T. who but a bunch of engineers would love such methodical approach to offense? there's a reason many teams hate to play and prepare for GT and cherish the bye week before the meet. this is probably the first time in PJ's career that he has really installed a passing game to be a significant part of the offense. he's adding wrinkles that will eventually be as staple as his triple option. give him some time with this new development. i personally think the problem is more with the D.

in terms of recruiting. y'all need to just realize that GT has a tremendous built-in disadvantage. sure some things could be changed but it's not an easy fix. the calculus thing is one. but another thing that i haven't seen mentioned is the student base make up. GT has 67% guys to girls ratio. hello?! that huge disadvantage ain't changing with a new coach. i'm asian so i can say this... you have 18% asians. just for comparison sake, unc has 58% girls (mostly liberal arts). 9% non-tech asians. i'm assuming that to macho 18 yr olds, these types of things matter. you guys are also in the middle of GA, which is a hot recruiting ground for most SEC teams, many ACC teams, and a bunch of others. you're competing against so many of the highly desirable schools.

so what does that mean? you'll have more success trying to work around it rather than beating it. which goes back to PJ. the schemes that he runs don't rely on the heavily recruited pro-style QB or TE or even RB. you guys do quite well with slightly less recruited guys sprinkled with occasional big names. the best thing you guys have going is that you guys run different stuff compared to other big programs. keep it up.
 

AE 87

Helluva Engineer
Messages
12,967
Would love to hear how we are turning this into a Jim Hart board..All I have done is stated my thoughts on the situation and asked what others thought.

The problem hasn't been offense production and all the stats about the offense the last few years are great...but CPJ is the head coach not just the OC.

- The talent drop from 08 to now is tremendous...We have more depth but we do not have elite talent. Bay-Bay, Dwyer, Nesbitt, Burnett, Walker, Morgan were all a great part of the success in the 08 and 09 season's...Since that time we have seen a big talent drop off and I do not think anyone can really even aruge that.

- Defense. The defense has been absolutely pathetic...Coach Johnson was the one who hired Groh and Wommack.

- Special teams...CPJ used to preach about we did not need a special teams coach. After a few years of bad special teams we go out and hire a special teams coach...Special teams is still really bad.

- If CPJ was the OC then I do not think anyone would be saying to fire him....The offense has been really good...but overall we have been on a steady decline as a team.

- Losing 4 in a row vs VT, 5 in a row vs Miami, 4 in a row vs UGA and loses to the likes of Kansas and MTSU just is not acceptable.

Eric, let me begin by repeating that I really appreciate what you've done with your site and with your effort to get recruiting info out to fans without a subscription fee. Although I disagree with the spirit and opinion that motivated this thread, I don't question your commitment as a fan to GT. As you say, it's a fan board, and people can express their opinions.

I just fundamentally think that questioning whether GT should keep CPJ as coach at this point is simplistic and wrong headed. Practically every point you posted in this thread could have been made before we played the first snap this season: previous D coordinators, talent drop-off, losing to KS and MTSU. In my opinion, if you want to have the conversation based on that data, you have the conversation during the off-season. You don't troll a fan forum (my take on this thread) after an emotional loss.

Before addressing the issues of this season, let's look quickly at the difference between a HC and an OC that you raise. In 2008 we beat U[sic]Ga and in 2009 went to the Orange Bowl, and CPJ fired the DC because he wasn't satisfied with results on that side of the ball. We were still paying off Gailey and got Groh on the cheap. In retrospect, it was a bad hire, but I still think that it was a reasonable one at the time. Again, when that didn't work out, he made a change. In other words, CPJ has shown that he's not satisfied with mediocrity and will always be working to find ways to win every game. GT's not always had that in a coach and finding that in a coach is not as easy as you might think. I think you underestimate how difficult it is to maintain that degree of a competitive spirit at GT with all the recruiting and other academic handicaps. Most GT students enter with a HS GPA of well over 3.5 and the Dean's List is (or was last time I heard) 3.0. That means that A-students in HS are struggling to maintain B's at Tech. That's a tough environment for student athletes to thrive in. With CPJ we have a guy who is not content with mediocrity and has proven for five years that he can put a very productive offense on the field and is not satisfied with a less than productive defense.

Which brings me to the second point, which you know something about, talent. As you and anybody who's followed college football for a while knows that often the first pass in ranking teams is talent. That's the reason why Tech is picked to finish 4th in the Coastal almost every year. Our recruiting classes are not bringing in the same kind of difference-maker talent year after year. You're right that the talent has dropped off (in terms of the top 8) from 2008, but 2007 was a remarkable AND abnormal year. It's not like Tech was bringing in that kind of talent every year until CPJ came as an ignorant reading of your post might infer. So, admittedly, on paper, before you even get to the question of the coach, we should not be competitive with VPI who oversigns and CU, d'oh U, and FSU who bring in comparably stronger talent. However, we have been competitive. We haven't won the past few years, but we've been in the games and should've/could've won the games last year. Some credit has to go to CPJ for that competitiveness.

To put some numbers on that competitiveness, Gailey did better than 4-4 in conference only 1 time in his 6 years. CPJ has done as poorly as 4-4 in conference only once in five years.

Now, let's look at the last couple of games, d'oh U and vippysue. Against, VPI we didn't run out of the diamond, and some thought that was a mistake, but against the d'oh U we weren't really stopped (not counting the fumble) until we went to the diamond. Neither Justin nor Vad were able to be very successful from it.

Also, I think I saw the same person on twitter complaining that CPJ was stubborn for not playing to Vad's strengths and letting him throw the ball more against VPI and also complaining that CPJ called too many pass plays in a row for Vad against d'oh U. Last year against VPI, we got the ball, down 14-10, with just under 8 minutes left. We ran a 13 play drive for a TD. The first play was a pass, and we threw five passes on that drive. The difference was we only had one incompletion. Sometimes the issue just really is not play calling but execution. Saturday, Vad had to roll out but had time to make a throw when he overthrew Robbie (who had his defender beat by 2 steps) at the endzone during the second drive of the 3rd qtr. And many of the other 13 passes were there too. I expect that both Vad and JT are better in practice than they have been in tight games. If someone wants to blame CPJ for this (I'd disagree), I think that you still have to go back and look at the record of the offense over all.

Finally, your mention of KS and MTSU as points against CPJ also seem to me to be off-point. The 2010 team that lost to KS, by many accounts, had chemistry and team-psychology/locker-room problems. The 2012 loss to MTSU was by all accounts hang-over from the Miami loss. Both losses came relatively early in the season, and CPJ and the team were able to rally and still become bowl-eligible. I don't think CPJ was responsible for either situation arising. In my opinion, you don't judge a coach based on whether the team faces set-backs during his administration but how it bounces back and handles it.

I think a reasonable take on our team today has to take into consideration that we're not like the factories who go two or three deep at every position. Demond Smith is a player who's making a strong transition from QB to safety, but if we still had Fred Holton, IJ, or Golden, he'd still be spending more time developing for next year. Our OL is pretty good at the starting lineup, but yeah, given our druthers, we'd probably not have Bryan Chamberlain and Chase Roberts take as many snaps at tackle.

While this long post may not be as emotionally satisfying as a Tyler-in-Atlanta meltdown over why we should fire our coach, I think it's a reasonable take on why that's not a great idea, in my opinion.
 

John

Peacekeeper
Staff member
Messages
2,174
While this long post may not be as emotionally satisfying as a Tyler-in-Atlanta meltdown
Is this the ugag guy that called into a radio show and started crying after losing to Clemson?

Anyway, on a complete sidenote, I appreciate everyone discussing this controversial topic without too much mud slinging.
 

poodleface

Jolly Good Fellow
Messages
208
Location
Atlanta, GA
As an aside, when I first looked at the poll, it was almost a unanimous "no" just after the game. I think there were 16 "no" votes with few votes in the other categories, and the tenor of the early discussion in the thread reflects this. And why not? We were disappointed.

One thing that CPJ has brought to the Tech fan base is expecting to compete for the ACC Championship every year. Not hoping for, but expecting. If I looked at the FSU message boards, I bet they would be disappointed if they weren't playing for the national title game this year (even if they won the ACC Championship). As a team achieves greater success, so come the expectations, but you never escape disappointment (unless you are an Alabama fan the past few years, that is). This is partially what motivated me to share that Oregon post after they lost to Stanford last year.

It would be one thing if the last two losses were blowouts, but both games were competitive in the 4th quarter. We are just frustrated because we look at every mistake with a fine tooth comb. We just know that the results could have been better.

CPJ seems to understand the role of luck better than most coaches. Coaching football is like playing poker, not playing chess. You don't have control over every variable. You can only create situations where, in the long run, you create positive expectation. When things go your way, you get 2009. GT could have very easily lost to Wake Forest that year, and our entire narrative of that season would have been dramatically altered. This is why I don't think CPJ gets very excited or very depressed by results. He's been around for a long time. He's not going to make drastic, emotional changes. Whether you like him or not seems predicated on seeing this as a strength or a weakness.

I'm glad that we can see 8-5 as "par" this year, because that was seen as a (recent) high point for Virginia in 2011. Would you trade CPJ for Mike London, even with his recent recruiting success? I certainly wouldn't.
 

heeled soul

Georgia Tech Fan
Messages
52
I'm glad that we can see 8-5 as "par" this year, because that was seen as a (recent) high point for Virginia in 2011. Would you trade CPJ for Mike London, even with his recent recruiting success? I certainly wouldn't.

great point. this applies to many programs. cutcliffe is well respected and had a highly successful season last year in leading dook to a 6-7. butch the recruiting extraordinaire davis managed three straight seasons of 8-5 before getting fired for the off-field problems. i'm sure there are plenty other examples.
 

AE 87

Helluva Engineer
Messages
12,967
Is this the ugag guy that called into a radio show and started crying after losing to Clemson?

Anyway, on a complete sidenote, I appreciate everyone discussing this controversial topic without too much mud slinging.

sorry, yes.

 

daBuzz

Ramblin' Wreck
Messages
965
CPJ seems to understand the role of luck better than most coaches. Coaching football is like playing poker, not playing chess. You don't have control over every variable. You can only create situations where, in the long run, you create positive expectation. When things go your way, you get 2009. GT could have very easily lost to Wake Forest that year, and our entire narrative of that season would have been dramatically altered. This is why I don't think CPJ gets very excited or very depressed by results. He's been around for a long time. He's not going to make drastic, emotional changes. Whether you like him or not seems predicated on seeing this as a strength or a weakness.

I'm glad that we can see 8-5 as "par" this year, because that was seen as a (recent) high point for Virginia in 2011. Would you trade CPJ for Mike London, even with his recent recruiting success? I certainly wouldn't.

I'm sorry but the man is the 19th highest paid coach in the country. For that money, we haven't finished a season ranked in the top 25 since 2009 IIRC.
He makes $2.75 million per year. Mark Richt only makes $3 million and his team has beaten us every year but one since he's been there and they continually rank in the top 10 in the country. Seems to me like UGA is getting the better return on their investment.

http://www.coacheshotseat.com/SalariesContracts.htm
 

GaTechYellowJackets

Georgia Tech Fan
Messages
35
It's funny how dedicated people are to defending CPJ. Our record against VT, UGA, Miami, and Clemson should make people mad but instead people are content with our mediocrity and that upsets me. We should be able to at least beat 2/4 teams every year. The way VT's program has been under Logan Thomas, we should've beaten them every year he's been playing imo. Reality under CPJ's system: if you care at all about going pro on the offense, don't go to GT. Seriously though. Why bother? NFL scouts (whatever you call them) will have to question whether or not you can play under a pro system. Why would any player in their right mind do that to themselves? You are putting an asterisk on yourself before you even play a snap in college. Under CPJ we have had 5 players on offense that I can think of to go pro? Kevin Cone, Bay Bay,Stephen Hill, Anthony Allen, and Dwyer (all of whom weren't recruited by CPJ I don't think?). Cone and Allen never even see the ball so I won't comment on that. Hill and Demaryious both had the same weakness on the scouting report. Unable to run good routes. Not a real shocker there? The only real route they ran was straight for the deep ball. That's a barrier that GT receivers have to deal with that 95% of other receivers don't. Hill seems to be working through it with professional coaches and Demaryious continued to have that problem until the best teacher/QB in the game came in and straightened his issues out. Glad they are working through it because they are both guys that had a tremendous amount of talent. Too bad their skills were underutilized during their time here.

Don't bother bringing in the fact that our academics hurt recruiting. While that may be somewhat true, smart academic schools across the country are making adjustments and doing just fine. Stanford being the main one. No reason we can't do the same?
 

kg01

Get-Bak! Coach
Featured Member
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11,070
Location
Atlanta
Don't bother bringing in the fact that our academics hurt recruiting. While that may be somewhat true, smart academic schools across the country are making adjustments and doing just fine. Stanford being the main one. No reason we can't do the same?

5 minutes on Stanford, ND, Duke, etc websites will tell you how wrong these statements are.

Please understand that I'm not happy with the state of the program. That doesn't mean a blind eye should be turned to the real difficulties we face.
 

OldJacketFan

Helluva Engineer
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Nashville, TN
Just a quick note on the Stanford, NW, ND and Vandy academics. What to all 4 of those schools have in common? Aside from the fact they are all private institutions, they are all also universities. The number of options they can offer their student athletes in degree programs far exceed what is available at Tech. Yes, they are a good number of student athletes that are academically qualified for Tech but if there is not a course of study that holds, at least, some interest to him why would they look at Tech. Especially if they have the option of the fours schools I named. I'm NOT trying to play the academic card but to say it doesn't impact recruiting is just wrong.
 

Bigb

Jolly Good Fellow
Messages
395
Just a quick note on the Stanford, NW, ND and Vandy academics. What to all 4 of those schools have in common? Aside from the fact they are all private institutions, they are all also universities. The number of options they can offer their student athletes in degree programs far exceed what is available at Tech. Yes, they are a good number of student athletes that are academically qualified for Tech but if there is not a course of study that holds, at least, some interest to him why would they look at Tech. Especially if they have the option of the fours schools I named. I'm NOT trying to play the academic card but to say it doesn't impact recruiting is just wrong.

I don't buy it. There may be 1 or 2 kids this affects us with, but the vast majority of kids that get into those schools could just as easily find a major at tech they'd consider.
 
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