Senior Day vs Wake Forest

[awbuzz]

Are same folks that are clamoring to red shirt the same ones that say to give them on court experience for the future?

 

[lv20gt]

Are same folks that are clamoring to red shirt the same ones that say to give them on court experience for the future?

I'm certainly not and was one of the more vocal posters about them needing experience. I assume those who are clamoring for a redshirt are the ones who thought we would redshirt him this year.

 

[RamblinRed]

I actually disagree on the redshirting, at least in terms of bigs. There is legit value to that imo.
Look at what schools like UVA and ND do. Look at AD. if he hadn't been redshirted then we likely would have gotten almost nothing out of him. Instead we are likely to get 1 1/2 yrs of play. GT got the benefit of redshirting Daniel Miller.
Bigs take longer to adjust and adapt to the college game.
i don't see the downside others do. Alot of them really aren't ready to contribute in any significant way early in their career, but can be very helpful later on.
grad transferring out is unlikely at this level unless it turns out they don't develop enough to help you. The Grad Transfer out occurs primarily with lower level school kids leaving for bigger schools. if a kid GT's out of GT, he likely is not an ACC caliber player so the transfer is actually a positive for both parties - freeing up a scholly and allowing them to go somewhere more attuned to their level of play.

Playing kids just for the sake of getting them experience is not always necessarily a positive. If they have a really bad go of it, and lose their confidence and self-belief you actually can make it worse and have to really rebuild them back up. You sort of have to play that individual by individual as a coach and figure out where you think it will be a positive and where you think it will be a negative.

 

[AE 87]

FWIW, I don't get the idea of redshirting a returning starter.

This is basketball. 5 guys start. 7-10 guys play. Let's get proven depth before we think we can bench starters for development.

 

[lv20gt]

I actually disagree on the redshirting, at least in terms of bigs. There is legit value to that imo.
Look at what schools like UVA and ND do. Look at AD. if he hadn't been redshirted then we likely would have gotten almost nothing out of him. Instead we are likely to get 1 1/2 yrs of play. GT got the benefit of redshirting Daniel Miller.
Bigs take longer to adjust and adapt to the college game.
i don't see the downside others do. Alot of them really aren't ready to contribute in any significant way early in their career, but can be very helpful later on.
grad transferring out is unlikely at this level unless it turns out they don't develop enough to help you. The Grad Transfer out occurs primarily with lower level school kids leaving for bigger schools. if a kid GT's out of GT, he likely is not an ACC caliber player so the transfer is actually a positive for both parties - freeing up a scholly and allowing them to go somewhere more attuned to their level of play.

Playing kids just for the sake of getting them experience is not always necessarily a positive. If they have a really bad go of it, and lose their confidence and self-belief you actually can make it worse and have to really rebuild them back up. You sort of have to play that individual by individual as a coach and figure out where you think it will be a positive and where you think it will be a negative.

There is value in redshirting anyone when you have the depth to allow for it. We don't though. Next year we'll return AD who is proven he can score sometimes, but it's unlikely that he'll be able to be the ironman that Ben was. We have no idea if Ogbonda will be able to contribute. Cole has proven a little but he's still a liability on defense, and Sjolund is hardly a lock to be ACC ready as a freshman. 3 of the 4 options we have huge ?s and the 4th isn't without his unknowns either. The only real arguments for redshirtting Moses are going the grad transfer route, lord why anyone actually thinks this is a good idea after experiencing the gregory disaster is beyond me, or going small, which was horrible for us this year.

Also, you say you don't see the downsides, but redshirtting comes at a cost. A 5th year of eligibility means a 5th year of a scholarship investment. Now if he really develops then it's worth it (Miller redshirtting when we had Lawal and Favors and developing his senior year). However if he doesn't then it's just a 5th year for a guy who really isn't helping your team much (Corey Heyward). In football the 5th year is better than the first is a mentality a lot more easy to take because if it doesn't work out then you have a lot more scholarships to work with. Also, sitting a year isn't guaranteed to help. Him being in our "development program" whatever that was, seemed to do more harm than good, and another year of that could just make him worse.

But regardless. Whether he could use it or not. We aren't in a position to redshirt guys. Going small would be dumb, and taking a grad transfer big would be even more so.

 

[iopjacket]

There is value in redshirting anyone when you have the depth to allow for it. We don't though. Next year we'll return AD who is proven he can score sometimes, but it's unlikely that he'll be able to be the ironman that Ben was. We have no idea if Ogbonda will be able to contribute. Cole has proven a little but he's still a liability on defense, and Sjolund is hardly a lock to be ACC ready as a freshman. 3 of the 4 options we have huge ?s and the 4th isn't without his unknowns either. The only real arguments for redshirtting Moses are going the grad transfer route, lord why anyone actually thinks this is a good idea after experiencing the gregory disaster is beyond me, or going small, which was horrible for us this year.

Also, you say you don't see the downsides, but redshirtting comes at a cost. A 5th year of eligibility means a 5th year of a scholarship investment. Now if he really develops then it's worth it (Miller redshirtting when we had Lawal and Favors and developing his senior year). However if he doesn't then it's just a 5th year for a guy who really isn't helping your team much (Corey Heyward). In football the 5th year is better than the first is a mentality a lot more easy to take because if it doesn't work out then you have a lot more scholarships to work with. Also, sitting a year isn't guaranteed to help. Him being in our "development program" whatever that was, seemed to do more harm than good, and another year of that could just make him worse.

But regardless. Whether he could use it or not. We aren't in a position to redshirt guys. Going small would be dumb, and taking a grad transfer big would be even more so.

I am all in for taking a transfer big. Especially if we can't recruit a freshman center or power forward. In his last couple of years Gregory wouldn't have had a team without transfers, particularly inside. I think, most agree, building a team by developing freshman is by far the best way, but sometimes you have to fill a need anyway you can.

 

[orientalnc]

At one time I thought AD would not return next year. A friend told me he could graduate before the ACC season begins next year, My opinion changed back & forth during the season. Right now I would be surprised to see him playing next year. Especially if we sign a big transfer or freshman who can play.

 

[tsrich]

I would add 4 to Mose’s target position. Not old school PF but stretch 4. In reality not that different than 3 in a lot of matchups.

I only saw one AAU game but in HS Moses never was required to play in the paint. Enloe allowed him to float the perimeter and jack. Reveno has a lot of bad habits to break. But by his JR year he should be able to be comfortable playing a 4 as well as 3.

Enloe has been a pretty bad team for years. I suspect they did not do a whole lot of player development with Moses. He was likely their best player by far.

 

[RamblinRed]

FWIW, i'm not advocating redshirting any of our current players, as Ivy said we don't have the depth for it yet.
But if we get there and have a developmental big then i'm all for it.

 

[GTHomer]

At one time I thought AD would not return next year. A friend told me he could graduate before the ACC season begins next year, My opinion changed back & forth during the season. Right now I would be surprised to see him playing next year. Especially if we sign a big transfer or freshman who can play.

Why? AD would start at 5 for the team next year, assuming he returns and continues to improve. I assume he is having fun and would want to return.

 

[MiracleWhips]

Why? AD would start at 5 for the team next year, assuming he returns and continues to improve. I assume he is having fun and would want to return.

The only way I could see us succeeding with AD at the 5 is that we would have to up the offensive tempo tremendously. This would wear down bigger 5s that AD would have to guard.

 

[GT_EE78]

I agree with Pea, Phillips is likely to be a upgrade from Alston and could very easily be about a net neutral with Tad. Phillips won't score as much as Tad, but he is a much better defender (was considered TN best defender) and better ballhandler and a better shooter (both from FT line and 3-pt line).

i see Phillips as a guy that can avg 8 ppg in ACC games, defend the opponents best perimeter player, provide secondary ballhandling support and shoot in the upper 30s from three. Remember this is a guy that started roughly 1/3 of his SEC games in his first 2 season. He has multiple 16 pt games in SEC play and an 18 pt game and has made as many as 4 threes in an SEC game.

i think Moses needs to be developed as a 3. Watching him in warmups working with Coach Reveno and the other bigs he doesn't look comfortable in a big man type game. He is more comfortable playing out and facing the basket. I actually loved one play he had yesterday even though he didn't score. He had a wide open three with Wake daring him to shoot. instead of taking hit he drove toward the basket and took a closer range shot - he missed it, but it was a good decision.

GT is going to look to sign the best big man from the grad transfer, HS, or overseas ranks it can find this spring.

I really like the potential of our perimeter depth. Josh, Jose, Curtis, Shembari, Mike, Brandon -that is a nice mix of talent and experience.
For the 4 and 5 spots I see AD as the starting 5, I see Cole as the starting 4 if we go big. I see Evan as the primary 5 backup if we don't find someone who can play there this spring, Moses as a backup 4. Given the perimeter depth we are likely to play some small ball 4 as well. it would be a big bonus if Sylvester could get healthy and be a backup 5.

Is there some reason to be doubtful about Ogboda's health for next year? (beyond this years woes)

 

[YlJacket]

Given what we saw from Ogbondo this year, it would be really hard to pencil him in as an important cog in next year's team.
I think the real question is why would we think Ogbondo's health and/or performance is going to suddenly get to an ACC level next year?

 

[H-Wade]

Given what we saw from Ogbondo this year, it would be really hard to pencil him in as an important cog in next year's team.
I think the real question is why would we think Ogbondo's health and/or performance is going to suddenly get to an ACC level next year?

He actually played over AD last season and was showing some flashes towards the end of the season IMO. Then during the off-season you had CJP singing his praises. Unfortunately he got injured and AD surpassed him and we didn't get to see him this year.

If you consider AD serviceable I don't see any reason Ognanda won't be able to give us some solid minutes, it's not like we have ANY depth right now down low.

 

[GT_EE78]

He actually played over AD last season and was showing some flashes towards the end of the season IMO. Then during the off-season you had CJP singing his praises. Unfortunately he got injured and AD surpassed him and we didn't get to see him this year.

If you consider AD serviceable I don't see any reason Ognanda won't be able to give us some solid minutes, it's not like we have ANY depth right now down low.

Think you may have that reversed.My recollection is that Og was 100% bench last year until AD got hurt. After that Ogbonda collected nearly a foul-a-minute and did not provide solid minutes.The only flash that i saw was his behind rapidly going back to the bench. We saw so little of him this year that i doubt if anyone knows if the off-season improvement praises were reasonable. I do share your concerns about the bigs for next year and hope our last recruit is a rebounding rim-protecter.

 

[H-Wade]

Think you may have that reversed.My recollection is that Og was 100% bench last year until AD got hurt. After that Ogbonda collected nearly a foul-a-minute and did not provide solid minutes.The only flash that i saw was his behind rapidly going back to the bench. We saw so little of him this year that i doubt if anyone knows if the off-season improvement praises were reasonable. I do share your concerns about the bigs for next year and hope our last recruit is a rebounding rim-protecter.

Hmm.. you may be right about AD being injured first, I honestly don't remember. The flashes I saw were in our NIT run, I remember him surprising me with some of the plays he made (like in the TCU game) but that may just be because the bar was set so low. Either way, I agree with you I hope we can bring in a big man this off-season.

 

[GT_EE78]

Hmm.. you may be right about AD being injured first, I honestly don't remember. The flashes I saw were in our NIT run, I remember him surprising me with some of the plays he made (like in the TCU game) but that may just be because the bar was set so low. Either way, I agree with you I hope we can bring in a big man this off-season.

Yea, and with two years of off-season improvement under his belt, I have no idea what to expect from sly but always hoping for the best

 

[RamblinRed]

AD was ahead of Sylvester until he suffered the season ending injury last season. AD was playing 15-18 mpg right before that injury.