Schematic Advantage, Ralph, Bill O'Brien, and for some reason Silicon Valley

[takethepoints]

"meme more effective in opposing the spread option"? LOL - what in God's name are you talking about? What meme am I missing?

I don't care what pretty colors and elitist terms you'd like to associate to it but when the QB has 30+ runs/game, please stop trying to sell this as any sort of "schematic advantage" by an alleged "offensive genius". We literally could barely complete passes of any length the past 2 years. PJ himself lamented this in several post-game radio interviews. A near-complete inability to complete a forward pass in the year 2018 is a disadvantage no matter how it's sliced.

And you can banter with me - just stay on-topic and stop trying to make this some personal attack on my fandom or football intellect that were made at the other whiny site echo chamber. If I point out Duke's recent dominance and deciphering of the Scheme, you may not like that but it's not a personal insult of you. I know it's hard because, literally, every. single. time. in a PJ debate, the pro-PJ, pro-TO poster ends up first resorting to attacking the poster rather than responding to the debate at hand. Frankly, it gets old but I got used to it on that whiny other site that boots out anyone who didn't worship PJ and his offense. I've never seen such strange sycophancy before.

Look, You think it gave us some sort of great advantage. I don't. Regardless of either of those opinions, it's gone. Time to move on.

Ok, I said I wouldn't do this but one last time.

"I don't care what pretty colors and elitist terms you'd like to associate to it but when the QB has 30+ runs/game, please stop trying to sell this as any sort of "schematic advantage" by an alleged "offensive genius"." I didn't. And what you are calling "pretty colors and elitist terms" (now who's being insulting?) are no more then the basics for understanding what we were doing for 11 years. You just proved my case.

Well, now I'll shut up on this.

 

[RickStromFan]

Ok, I said I wouldn't do this but one last time.

"I don't care what pretty colors and elitist terms you'd like to associate to it but when the QB has 30+ runs/game, please stop trying to sell this as any sort of "schematic advantage" by an alleged "offensive genius"." I didn't. And what you are calling "pretty colors and elitist terms" (now who's being insulting?) are no more then the basics for understanding what we were doing for 11 years. You just proved my case.

Well, now I'll shut up on this.

LOL - OK. "pretty colors and elitist terms" wasn't a personal insult of you - it's how your description of our offense reads. Sorry but it wasn't as fancy as you tried to make it. And then things like "This is an old D strategy with the spread option: make the QB run and try to run down his tank. Everybody here who looked at a Longest Day game film knows this was what was going on. "....which is a SPOT ON observation by you, btw - just show that, while it was a Schematic advantage for us early on in PJ's era, it clearly was not by the end, as teams had also watched a Longest Day game film or two and were just clamping down on us, unless we out-talented 'em. I'll never understand why PJ abandoned most of his open-air-passing playbook from his Hawaii days (yes I've seen it and yes I know it has a TE in it!) nor why he didn't do much of any adjusting the past 2 years. Repeating the same things and expecting different results is...well, nevermind.

Now I too will shut up on this.

 

[jacketup]

I totally understood how the offense worked. Unfortunately, so did half our schedule almost every year...and more than that a few times. After the first couple of seasons, it provided no advantage whatsoever.

It's that attitude - that PJ's offense was smarter and better than everyone else and 'you just don't understand it' - that's coming to the forefront in so many pro-PJ responses. Every single time, the pro-PJ guy makes it personal and puts themselves on a little pedestal and at the end of the day, a personal insult is always the first sign of a lost debate.

If the game is checkers, it's asinine to try to play chess.

The idea is to take what the D gives you. Create matchups you can win.
Johnson was very, very good at doing that--at the LOS. He was a master at changing blocking schemes during a game.

But otherwise, his offense was limited and it (and recruiting) caught up with him. Ralph Friedgen was much better at installing offenses that created desirable matchups. He ran 4 wide, 2 tight end, wishbone, under center, shotgun.... Review film and take what they give you. And Ralph was damn good at OL coaching too.

People who didn't have the opportunity to see Ralph's offense at GT from 97-00 missed a treat. He admitted that he learned a lot from his time with the Chargers and it showed. O'Leary said his best recruiting job was hiring Ralph.

When you look at the QB's Ralph coached at Tech it's pretty amazing. Rick Strom is a good example--he improved so much from Curry to Ross (Ralph). Then Shawn Jones and Joe and Goose... Those guys might have been good under other coaches, but I'm not sure they would have been special. And think how different Goose was from Joe! Ralph could not only adapt his scheme to the defense, he could adapt his scheme to his players.

Those were the days. O'Leary and Friedgen were a great team. I hope we see the likes of it again. Collins is from the O'Leary tree in a sense--he witnessed it and he gets it.

I saw Ralph coming out of a restaurant(imagine that!) a couple of years ago. I asked him if he was doing any coaching. He waited about one second and then spouted an emphatic NO!

 

[TheSilasSonRising]

The idea is to take what the D gives you. Create matchups you can win.
Johnson was very, very good at doing that--at the LOS. He was a master at changing blocking schemes during a game.

But otherwise, his offense was limited and it (and recruiting) caught up with him. Ralph Friedgen was much better at installing offenses that created desirable matchups. He ran 4 wide, 2 tight end, wishbone, under center, shotgun.... Review film and take what they give you. And Ralph was damn good at OL coaching too.

People who didn't have the opportunity to see Ralph's offense at GT from 97-00 missed a treat. He admitted that he learned a lot from his time with the Chargers and it showed. O'Leary said his best recruiting job was hiring Ralph.

When you look at the QB's Ralph coached at Tech it's pretty amazing. Rick Strom is a good example--he improved so much from Curry to Ross (Ralph). Then Shawn Jones and Joe and Goose... Those guys might have been good under other coaches, but I'm not sure they would have been special. And think how different Goose was from Joe! Ralph could not only adapt his scheme to the defense, he could adapt his scheme to his players.

Those were the days. O'Leary and Friedgen were a great team. I hope we see the likes of it again. Collins is from the O'Leary tree in a sense--he witnessed it and he gets it.

I saw Ralph coming out of a restaurant(imagine that!) a couple of years ago. I asked him if he was doing any coaching. He waited about one second and then spouted an emphatic NO!

I can honestly say I never saw a better "coaching up" job than what Ralph did with Goose. Unreal.

Now CPJ's death marches were things of beauty as well.

Such as the 8+ minute march vs duke last year.

Sadly, it was in the 4th qtr and we were down 28 to 7 at the time.

 

[InsideLB]

Going to be a long offseason.

 

[RickStromFan]

I can honestly say I never saw a better "coaching up" job than what Ralph did with Goose. Unreal.

Now CPJ's death marches were things of beauty as well.

Such as the 8+ minute march vs duke last year.

Sadly, it was in the 4th qtr and we were down 28 to 7 at the time.

Reading scheme fans actually try to explain the logic of a half-qtr death march when we were down 21 pts was mind-boggling at TOS. The kool aid was sweeter for some, I guess.

 

[Techster]

I can honestly say I never saw a better "coaching up" job than what Ralph did with Goose. Unreal.

Now CPJ's death marches were things of beauty as well.

Someone else alluded to it in another thread, but GT has been EXTREMELY blessed with some great football minds since we started playing football. Heisman, Bobby Dodd, Broyles are coaches who have major awards named after them.

I grew up on Friedgen's offense his first time around with Ross and Shawn Jones. Was blessed to witness his magic grooming Joe Hamilton from an undersized turnover prone freshmen QB to eventually a Heisman runnerup. His work with Godsey till this day is one of the best "coach up" jobs I can remember.

Gailey gets a lot a crap, but people don't realize how respected of a football coach he was. Our fans want to say how poorly he recruited, but people won't give him credit for never having a losing season at GT with that "poor recruiting", and all the guys he developed into NFL players. He implemented some schemes with Reggie Ball that was about a decade before it became common in college football. There's a reason why Gailey kept getting jobs in the NFL...and could probably still work in football if he wanted to. In my lifetime of being a GT fan (which started in the 90's), IMO, Gailey and his staff probably did the best with finding and developing talent.

Then we have Paul Johnson. Sometimes I wish CPJ would have retired in 2016 on a higher note. It's a shame the last few seasons of his tenure have muddied some of his legacy...and it's mainly our fault as GT fans. CPJ deserved to go out on a bigger pedestal than he did, but the divisiveness amongst all of us towards the end made it untenable. I'll never forget how I felt after the 2009 season. I thought GT with CPJ may not win every game, but we would be play teams evenly enough that CPJ could work his magic the last two minutes to beat any team. At a school like GT, giving us a chance against teams like UGA/VT/Clemson/FSU in the last two minute is a gift...and CPJ gave us that more times than we probably deserved. 3 ACCCGs, 2 OBs, and what seemed like a million frustrated DCs and defenders are some of the best times I've had as a GT fan. Outside all of that, CPJ was a phenomenal tactician. His schemes are still being used today from high school to the NFL. A lot has been repackaged, but his influence on football is unquestionable. You don't build up a winning program at Navy (and indirectly Army) out of luck. I hope GT does right by CPJ one day and gives him the distinction he deserves. Like I've said multiple times...CPJ will be on my personal GT Mount Rushmore of coaches.

Names like Alexander, Ross, Spurrier, O'Leary, O'Brien, etc who had success here and became bigger names elsewhere have graced our sidelines. There's a reason why other schools and teams like to poach our coaches (San Diego Chargers, Notre Dame, Alabama): If you can win at GT, there's a high chance that coach will be successful anywhere.

 

[slugboy]

Someone else alluded to it in another thread, but GT has been EXTREMELY blessed with some great football minds since we started playing football. Heisman, Bobby Dodd, Broyles are coaches who have major awards named after them.

I grew up on Friedgen's offense his first time around with Ross and Shawn Jones. Was blessed to witness his magic grooming Joe Hamilton from an undersized turnover prone freshmen QB to eventually a Heisman runnerup. His work with Godsey till this day is one of the best "coach up" jobs I can remember.

Gailey gets a lot a crap, but people don't realize how respected of a football coach he was. Our fans want to say how poorly he recruited, but people won't give him credit for never having a losing season at GT with that "poor recruiting", and all the guys he developed into NFL players. He implemented some schemes with Reggie Ball that was about a decade before it became common in college football. There's a reason why Gailey kept getting jobs in the NFL...and could probably still work in football if he wanted to. In my lifetime of being a GT fan (which started in the 90's), IMO, Gailey and his staff probably did the best with finding and developing talent.

Then we have Paul Johnson. Sometimes I wish CPJ would have retired in 2016 on a higher note. It's a shame the last few seasons of his tenure have muddied some of his legacy...and it's mainly our fault as GT fans. CPJ deserved to go out on a bigger pedestal than he did, but the divisiveness amongst all of us towards the end made it untenable. I'll never forget how I felt after the 2009 season. I thought GT with CPJ may not win every game, but we would be play teams evenly enough that CPJ could work his magic the last two minutes to beat any team. At a school like GT, giving us a chance against teams like UGA/VT/Clemson/FSU in the last two minute is a gift...and CPJ gave us that more times than we probably deserved. 3 ACCCGs, 2 OBs, and what seemed like a million frustrated DCs and defenders are some of the best times I've had as a GT fan. Outside all of that, CPJ was a phenomenal tactician. His schemes are still being used today from high school to the NFL. A lot has been repackaged, but his influence on football is unquestionable. You don't build up a winning program at Navy (and indirectly Army) out of luck. I hope GT does right by CPJ one day and gives him the distinction he deserves. Like I've said multiple times...CPJ will be on my personal GT Mount Rushmore of coaches.

Names like Alexander, Ross, Spurrier, O'Leary, O'Brien, etc who had success here and became bigger names elsewhere have graced our sidelines. There's a reason why other schools and teams like to poach our coaches (San Diego Chargers, Notre Dame, Alabama): If you can win at GT, there's a high chance that coach will be successful anywhere.

O’Brien was a holdover OC when Gailey started. No evidence, but I have the idea there was friction and O’Brien moved on quickly. But I think that was the best offensive scheming of Gailey’s tenure.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[steebu]

O’Brien was a holdover OC when Gailey started. No evidence, but I have the idea there was friction and O’Brien moved on quickly. But I think that was the best offensive scheming of Gailey’s tenure.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I don't have any evidence, either, but you've got one guy who wants to run his system and another guy who's the head man and wants to run his system ... so something had to give.

 

[GSOJacket]

I saw my first Tech game at age 6. Bobby Dodd was our coach and still when I graduated Tech in '62. But Dodd's glory years, 1951 - 56, were behind him. Those were fabulous years to be a Tech fan. Tech 'owned' Atlanta, and the press loved - Dodd's personality/accessibility lack of major league sports in the South. People had to die for others to get season tickets in the West stands. But never forget: Tech's great '51 - 56 teams had two outstanding assistants who were MAJOR contributors to Coach Dodd's success - Frank Broyles offense and Ray Graves defense. Broyles last season at Tech was 1956, Graves 1959. The impact of top assistants was less recognized then than it is today, when IMO most Tech fans who saw O'leary's teams understood that while Ralph was here, these were probably as much Friedgen's teams as O'leary's.
I greatly admire the job Paul Johnson did at Tech, three times ACC Coach of the Year. His first year, when he inherited a roster totally NOT built for his offense, was a masterpiece. When his offense was clicking, it was a thing of beauty - much more interesting and entertaining to me than the same-old, same-old everybody else was running. That said, I'm really looking forward to the new regime, which, like CPJ's, will have some significant early roster challenges. I just hope we'll support Coach Collins and the team even if we experience a tough transition. The head football coaching job at Georgia Tech is not for the faint of heart, but I think we have the right guy. Go Jackets!!

 

[takethepoints]

I saw my first Tech game at age 6. Bobby Dodd was our coach and still when I graduated Tech in '62. But Dodd's glory years, 1951 - 56, were behind him. Those were fabulous years to be a Tech fan. Tech 'owned' Atlanta, and the press loved - Dodd's personality/accessibility lack of major league sports in the South. People had to die for others to get season tickets in the West stands. But never forget: Tech's great '51 - 56 teams had two outstanding assistants who were MAJOR contributors to Coach Dodd's success - Frank Broyles offense and Ray Graves defense. Broyles last season at Tech was 1956, Graves 1959. The impact of top assistants was less recognized then than it is today, when IMO most Tech fans who saw O'leary's teams understood that while Ralph was here, these were probably as much Friedgen's teams as O'leary's.
I greatly admire the job Paul Johnson did at Tech, three times ACC Coach of the Year. His first year, when he inherited a roster totally NOT built for his offense, was a masterpiece. When his offense was clicking, it was a thing of beauty - much more interesting and entertaining to me than the same-old, same-old everybody else was running. That said, I'm really looking forward to the new regime, which, like CPJ's, will have some significant early roster challenges. I just hope we'll support Coach Collins and the team even if we experience a tough transition. The head football coaching job at Georgia Tech is not for the faint of heart, but I think we have the right guy. Go Jackets!!

Yet Ray wasn't a great success in subsequent jobs. My sister went to UF as an undergrad (she was homecoming queen, btw). The UF annual that year had, of course, a sports section. They had a great picture of Ray and his whole staff looking at the field with expressions of dismay and shock. The caption:

"Oh, God! We've got the ball again!"

He was dynamite as a DC, however.

 

[GSOJacket]

As you point out, not all great coordinators are cut out for the top job. Some of them know this. Others are driven to try, with mixed results - just like in business/government.

 

[Buzztheirazz]

I saw my first Tech game at age 6. Bobby Dodd was our coach and still when I graduated Tech in '62. But Dodd's glory years, 1951 - 56, were behind him. Those were fabulous years to be a Tech fan. Tech 'owned' Atlanta, and the press loved - Dodd's personality/accessibility lack of major league sports in the South. People had to die for others to get season tickets in the West stands. But never forget: Tech's great '51 - 56 teams had two outstanding assistants who were MAJOR contributors to Coach Dodd's success - Frank Broyles offense and Ray Graves defense. Broyles last season at Tech was 1956, Graves 1959. The impact of top assistants was less recognized then than it is today, when IMO most Tech fans who saw O'leary's teams understood that while Ralph was here, these were probably as much Friedgen's teams as O'leary's.
I greatly admire the job Paul Johnson did at Tech, three times ACC Coach of the Year. His first year, when he inherited a roster totally NOT built for his offense, was a masterpiece. When his offense was clicking, it was a thing of beauty - much more interesting and entertaining to me than the same-old, same-old everybody else was running. That said, I'm really looking forward to the new regime, which, like CPJ's, will have some significant early roster challenges. I just hope we'll support Coach Collins and the team even if we experience a tough transition. The head football coaching job at Georgia Tech is not for the faint of heart, but I think we have the right guy. Go Jackets!!

This is the best post I have seen on this board in months.

I always respond from a phone or iPad so I'm usually pretty short and to the point. But I LOVE hearing stories and thoughts of people that have a long history with GT. Please continue to share your past experience and thoughts of our current regime. I really appreciate it!

 

[GTJake]

My Dad got to know Ralph when he was working at Meadowcreek HS and Ralph was recruiting a couple of players there.
He always took the time to say hello to my Dad and chat a bit, my Dad really liked him.
Ralph's success came from spreading the defense and making them defend the entire field sideline to sideline and Lil' Joe was the perfect QB for that scheme.
IMO, this offense when clicking was a thing of beauty, pitch and catch - pitch and catch ... right down the field.

 

[GSOJacket]

My understanding that a core principle of Friedgen's offense was to be able to run any play from any formation.... which made it very challenging for opponents to prepare for.