Red Shirt vs Playing as True Freshman

[Techster]

SOL. (smiled out loud)

Btw, I used to be a "redshirt as many as possible" guy, but have come around to the idea of "win now then in 5 years do what you have to do to win now."

Oh, I agree about the guys who are obviously talented enough to play and "add value" to the depth chart and on game days. I'm just saying, if the only role a freshmen is going to have is barreling down the field on punt and kickoff coverage duties...to me, that's a waste.

Of course, I understand CPJ has to balance out a class...like this one, so that's also a factor.

 

[RamblinCharger]

I'm not sure how you're getting "acclimated to the speed of football" when special teams doesn't simulate anything on offense or defense. Practicing 4 times a week and scrimmaging will do that better than special teams.

Say you're a WR...how does barreling down the field full speed simulate finding a soft zone for your QB in cover 2? If you're a LB, how does punt block duties simulate shadowing a TE down the seam on 3rd and long, while maintaining zone coverage?

Special teams is on the field around 5-8 times a game. Is it really worth an entire year of eligibility when there are other guys you recruited who could do the job. The teams that are the best on special teams have their starters them...Alabama, VT, Ohio State. Those coaches don't see a problem with starters or key 2 deep players on special teams, but somehow now it's a problem?

As I said earlier, I'd much rather have Zach Laskey at BB this year than what we got out of him his freshmen year.

I don't get the fascination with Zack. He was a good player and he represented Tech in a great manner, but we will be just fine at BB. The guys at 1&2 now are more talented than Zack, and he was a huge piece for us last year. Sure, it would be nice to have him this year, but by years end I don't think he would be the starter.

A far as the OP is concerned, I think you play to win now. If a guy can help make you better anywhere on the field then he needs to play. If there is no difference in helping us win between a trFR and another guy that is further along, then you redshirt the freshman.

 

[Techster]

I don't get the fascination with Zack. He was a good player and he represented Tech in a great manner, but we will be just fine at BB. The guys at 1&2 now are more talented than Zack, and he was a huge piece for us last year. Sure, it would be nice to have him this year, but by years end I don't think he would be the starter.

A far as the OP is concerned, I think you play to win now. If a guy can help make you better anywhere on the field then he needs to play. If there is no difference in helping us win between a trFR and another guy that is further along, then you redshirt the freshman.

Zach was an All-ACC RB last year. The guys we have there haven't proven anything outside of stoking up their practice legends on messageboards. I'll take a known commodity that was very good in his role last year and who would be even better this year over true freshmen and a guy who had all of 12 carries his entire collegiate career. Marcus Marshall may be special eventually (and I think he will), but odds are he will not carry this team at BB this year like Zach would.

 

[tech_wreck47]

Zach was an All-ACC RB last year. The guys we have there haven't proven anything outside of stoking up their practice legends on messageboards. I'll take a known commodity that was very good in his role last year and who would be even better this year over true freshmen and a guy who had all of 12 carries his entire collegiate career. Marcus Marshall may be special eventually (and I think he will), but odds are he will not carry this team at BB this year like Zach would.

I wouldn't be so sure about that, they both have the potential to do so, and if they really grip ahold of what cpj is wanting to do I believe they can carry the team like laskey, but I will admit there are a lot of questions as of now. Im gonna give them the chance before saying they won't though.

 

[AE 87]

Spot on in every respect.

ZL will always be revered for his contributions to Tech. He was tough, reliable, almost fumble-free, and steadfast in his ability to get 3-7 yards. We counted on him when we needed it most. He was also a great spokesman. In many ways he represented all things Tech. But there is a reason why there are so few highlight videos of him beyond media interviews. Despite his measurables at the NFL combine, I always felt that he sought to run through LBs rather than around them and rarely turned a relatively easy 6 yards into +30. He's tough though:

I think Patrick Skov will be the new Laskey, and MM will be something we haven't seen in a long time. MM seems to have an instinctive talent for finding the crease.

Finally, I don't get the reluctance of playing a true freshman. The future is uncertain; play your best players now. Win today. Plus, there are ~20 new superstars arriving each year. There's no reason a 3-year player, who hasn't started before, is somehow entitled to a position because he's been in the system longer. Much less earned it. The new guys aren't new to football, and many experienced at least one coaching change (along with learning a new scheme) in their HS days. If they're smart enough to be at Tech, they can probably survive learning a new offensive scheme. This ain't PHYS 2122 or drownproofing (do we still have those classes?)!

I rue the day when the players unionize and longevity > talent....

I'm pretty sure that it was Imoan Claiborne not Zach who threw the punch. http://www.turfshowtimes.com/2015/8/18/9174973/rams-fb-zach-laskey-clocks-cowboys-wr-dez-bryant

 

[strong90]

Well, it was on the interweb so it must be true. I couldn't tell from the video, but more than one media outlet has repeated ZL's name. Unfortunately for him, some talking heads will perpetuate the accusation and it could grow legs. Personally, it wouldn't bother me if he did as long as it gives him enough street cred to earn a spot on the roster!

 

[AE 87]

Well, it was on the interweb so it must be true. I couldn't tell from the video, but more than one media outlet has repeated ZL's name. Unfortunately for him, some talking heads will perpetuate the accusation and it could grow legs. Personally, it wouldn't bother me if he did as long as it gives him enough street cred to earn a spot on the roster!

Laskey and Claiborne both wear number 45. Two things: (1) the link I posted was a correction from initially reporting Zach, a move that would be unlikely unless they had good reason, and (2) it seems to me more likely that a cornerback gets into it with the wide receiver than a fullback.

 

[strong90]

gotcha. thanks

 

[strong90]

how do i remove the post?

 

[Northeast Stinger]

Well, it was on the interweb so it must be true. I couldn't tell from the video, but more than one media outlet has repeated ZL's name. Unfortunately for him, some talking heads will perpetuate the accusation and it could grow legs. Personally, it wouldn't bother me if he did as long as it gives him enough street cred to earn a spot on the roster!

First of all it was not Zack. His team currently uses double numbers in practice for several players, so even though some media source got the right number they got the wrong player. Secondly, watch the film. Does that player even look like Laskey? Duh.

 

[lv20gt]

. Marcus Marshall may be special eventually (and I think he will), but odds are he will not carry this team at BB this year like Zach would.

This is a very odd statement considering that Laskey had the chance to carry the team last year and overall was underwhelming as the number 1 guy.

During the first 7 games, where the Bback spot was almost exclusively Laskey's, he averaged 85 ypg on 4.95 ypc. Compare that to the 119 ypg on 5.92 ypc that Days produced once he became the starter. And consider that the first 7 games were significantly easier than the last 7. Laskey was a good #2, but if we're worried about replacing anyone at BB, it's Days, not Laskey.

 

[strong90]

First of all it was not Zack. His team currently uses double numbers in practice for several players, so even though some media source got the right number they got the wrong player. Secondly, watch the film. Does that player even look like Laskey? Duh.

I get it. Regretfully, I jumped the gun and became the thing I hate the most by perpetuating a false accusation via social media. Trying to fix it but don't know where to look other than "report" myself, which I've done. Can someone please tell me how to delete it?

 

[AE 87]

This is a very odd statement considering that Laskey had the chance to carry the team last year and overall was underwhelming as the number 1 guy.

During the first 7 games, where the Bback spot was almost exclusively Laskey's, he averaged 85 ypg on 4.95 ypc. Compare that to the 119 ypg on 5.92 ypc that Days produced once he became the starter. And consider that the first 7 games were significantly easier than the last 7. Laskey was a good #2, but if we're worried about replacing anyone at BB, it's Days, not Laskey.

I hear you, but I'm not sure that the Laskey v. Days math is that simple. I think we need to keep in mind that JT was getting better through the season. He missed a lot more reads, especially early on, than we've talked about much. Those missed reads translated into ZL getting the ball when he shouldn't and not getting it when he should've, two things that would lower his average yds/carry from what it would be when those reads are made. Second, the OL was getting better through the season as well.

That being said, I think the points in favor of Zach was his ability to hit fast and get positive yds, even without the best blocking. It seems like we're going to be okay on the blocking front, so I'm not worried.

 

[JacketFromUGA]

I feel like Zach carried the team just fine at b-back last year. I never felt he was under preforming in that role. He ran super angry at UGA and put some drives and TDs solely on his back.

 

[lv20gt]

I hear you, but I'm not sure that the Laskey v. Days math is that simple. I think we need to keep in mind that JT was getting better through the season. He missed a lot more reads, especially early on, than we've talked about much. Those missed reads translated into ZL getting the ball when he shouldn't and not getting it when he should've, two things that would lower his average yds/carry from what it would be when those reads are made. Second, the OL was getting better through the season as well.
.

Come on man. We're talking 35 ypg amd 1 ypc difference here, almost instantly. The last two games with Laskey as a starter (Duke and UNC) he got 73 ypg on 15 carries (4.87 per). The next two games (Pitt and UVA) saw Days put up 128.5 ypg on 23 carries (5.59 per). That's a difference of 55.5 yards a game difference and .72 ypc. And before someone points out that I arbitrarily left out the Miami game, Laskey's only real standout performance in the first 7, the numbers over the last 3 games/first 3 games are 93 ypg on 4.73 ypc for laskey to 138 ypg on 6.37 ypc for Days. Difference of 45 ypg on 1.64 ypc difference. Even post return, Laskey's numbers, not including Clemson for his advantage, he averaged 5.17 ypc from the back up role to Days' 5.93 ypc from the #1 spot.

The difference in production is simply too large to explain away with improvement in blocking or reads, especially when the improvement was so drastic immediately. It's silly to be talking about a freshman's ability to carry the team, and be talking about Laskey and not Days.

 

[wingsrlevel]

This is a very odd statement considering that Laskey had the chance to carry the team last year and overall was underwhelming as the number 1 guy.

During the first 7 games, where the Bback spot was almost exclusively Laskey's, he averaged 85 ypg on 4.95 ypc. Compare that to the 119 ypg on 5.92 ypc that Days produced once he became the starter. And consider that the first 7 games were significantly easier than the last 7. Laskey was a good #2, but if we're worried about replacing anyone at BB, it's Days, not Laskey.

I agree with AE 87. The O line was much better the second half of the year. JT, Erin Joe along with Burden improved drastically after the UNC game. Numbers would indicate that ZL was a little more athletic and quicker than SD and just about as strong (21-19 reps) Considering ZL probably couldn't even lift for 2 months with a shoulder injury that's quite the accomplishment. ZL's career at GT far exceeded the 7 game career of SD and quite a few other more highly recruited athletes. The topic was playing as a freshman vs. redshirting yet you want to compare ZL to SD. If you think not having a RS senior who has played and produced for 3 years at a position and even led the team in rushing as a sophomore is worse that a first year player or true freshman then I think we should just agree to disagree. ZL is #13 on the all-time rushing list (2000 + yards) starting 13 games in his career. ZL is still in a NFL camp while SD gets cut during OTA's and doesn't even make it to camp. Chew on that a little bit. Those are facts.....not speculation.

 

[deeeznutz]

Come on man. We're talking 35 ypg amd 1 ypc difference here, almost instantly. The last two games with Laskey as a starter (Duke and UNC) he got 73 ypg on 15 carries (4.87 per). The next two games (Pitt and UVA) saw Days put up 128.5 ypg on 23 carries (5.59 per). That's a difference of 55.5 yards a game difference and .72 ypc. And before someone points out that I arbitrarily left out the Miami game, Laskey's only real standout performance in the first 7, the numbers over the last 3 games/first 3 games are 93 ypg on 4.73 ypc for laskey to 138 ypg on 6.37 ypc for Days. Difference of 45 ypg on 1.64 ypc difference. Even post return, Laskey's numbers, not including Clemson for his advantage, he averaged 5.17 ypc from the back up role to Days' 5.93 ypc from the #1 spot.

The difference in production is simply too large to explain away with improvement in blocking or reads, especially when the improvement was so drastic immediately. It's silly to be talking about a freshman's ability to carry the team, and be talking about Laskey and not Days.

Only reason Laskey is mentioned in that comment is he never redshirted, while Days did. Hell, I'd much rather have Days back for year 6 instead of Laskey for year 5, but the NCAA just doesn't want to give in on that rule.

 

[lv20gt]

I agree with AE 87. The O line was much better the second half of the year. JT, Erin Joe along with Burden improved drastically after the UNC game. Numbers would indicate that ZL was a little more athletic and quicker than SD and just about as strong (21-19 reps) Considering ZL probably couldn't even lift for 2 months with a shoulder injury that's quite the accomplishment. ZL's career at GT far exceeded the 7 game career of SD and quite a few other more highly recruited athletes. The topic was playing as a freshman vs. redshirting yet you want to compare ZL to SD. If you think not having a RS senior who has played and produced for 3 years at a position and even led the team in rushing as a sophomore is worse that a first year player or true freshman then I think we should just agree to disagree. ZL is #13 on the all-time rushing list (2000 + yards) starting 13 games in his career. ZL is still in a NFL camp while SD gets cut during OTA's and doesn't even make it to camp. Chew on that a little bit. Those are facts.....not speculation.

How is anything I posted speculation? I presented stats. Something that you clearly wanted to avoid for the most part.

Regardless of 40 times, Days outperformed Laskey last year. By a lot. That is a fact. One was in his first year at the position. The other in his 4th. NFL standing means nothing especially when talking about one making the team as a FB and the other getting let go as a RB, and career totals are misleading, which is why you brought them up, because one player was hot potatoed around by the coaching staff before exceeding in his first opportunity to play, while the other posted a career 5.2 ypc while having multiple opportunity to grab the reigns, and never did so.

The post I quoted was doubting a freshman's ability to 'carry' us like Laskey, when there is little reason to believe that, with our OL, a freshman who won the top spot would have any trouble replicating Laskey's production as a starter last year.

As far as RSing vs playing, all a redshirt would have done for Dywer or Calvin was having them play a year less. You don't throw away a guy who will be a big help this year at the chance that he'll be here in year 5. Especially when we have no experience there to begin with. If he wins a top 2 spot, which I think is likely given the circumstances, you play him, unless the #1 is another Dwyer which is unlikely.

 

[Northeast Stinger]

I get it. Regretfully, I jumped the gun and became the thing I hate the most by perpetuating a false accusation via social media. Trying to fix it but don't know where to look other than "report" myself, which I've done. Can someone please tell me how to delete it?

Sorry, I was not trying to jump your case.

 

[awbuzz]

I don't think any of us are saying that red shirting should be mandatory. Only that if a freshman won't being playing significant time or if there are enough appropriate bodies to play ST, that they shouldn't be played just for the sake of "game experience".