RickStromFan
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I don't think we'll ever return to a service-academy style of offense.
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I don't think we'll ever return to a service-academy style of offense.
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Absolutely not. Pretty obvious really, why they never will.
stech81
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One thing I have learned being married 46 years is not to say never.
RickStromFan
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conversely, we ran the ball plenty vs Duke in both halves.
forensicbuzz
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I hate when smart people say stupid things.
RickStromFan
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there was nothing stupid about what I said. We won't be going back to a service-academy offense ever again.
forensicbuzz
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The sheer stupidity starts with calling our former offense a service-academy offense.
To call the offense we ran a service-academy offense is quite stupid considering the person who installed the offense at Georgia Tech was the one who installed it at Navy. Prior to him going there, none of the services academies ran that offense.
People need to get a clue before they open up their clap-trap (or start typing, as it goes). It's the same as the people who talk about it being a HS offense. There's no HS in America that ran that offense. They may have run aspects of it, but it's such a complicated offense that no HS had the time or the athletes to run what CPJ ran. Hell, the reason there wasn't more passing at Tech was because so much time had to be spend drilling the running aspects of the game to be able to run it half way properly that there wasn't sufficient practice time to insert the run-and-shoot aspects of the offense. With unlimited practice time, that offense would be unstoppable.
All that being said, we're not running CPJ's offense anymore, so let it go.
Again, I really hate when smart people say stupid things.
85Escape
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It's like Forrest's momma always said.
Madison Grant
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Never accuse others of what one does oneself. CPJ was the best at what he did - 'that offense', whatever you want to call it. But even he needed talent that 'unlimited practice time' could not have overcome. The closest we came to being unstoppable was when we had the best athlete he had at QB, two NFL WRs, and an NFL OG. So no coach is such a geeeeenius that he can beat the New England Patriots with walk-ons as long has he has enough practice time. Sorry. Athletes matter. And calling it a 'service academy' offense, though that could be taken as derisive, is reasonably descriptive since it is currently being run (or versions derived from it) at Navy and Army. And Air Force under Ken Hatfield and Fisher DeBerry was running the option before CPJ brought it to Navy.
RickStromFan
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Today, all the service academies run versions of that offense though. And the post I replied to specifically mentioned Jeff Monken, a PJ disciple, who is also currently running a service-academy offense. Ergo, it's a service academy offense. That label isn't meant to offend nor trigger but those schools are the only ones running it so the label is accurate, PJ Fan Club protestations aside.
With unlimited practice time and the right personnel (of which no team in America has), all offenses are unstoppable. People need to get a clue before replying and revealing their bias: The belief that our previous scheme was somehow better than every other offense in America is laughable and extremely stupid. With unlimited practice time and the right players, all Defenses could be coached to shut it - or any other offense down. A few were already doing a bang-up job of it with Duke-limited personnel.
It was not a HS offense either, contrary to idiot Mark Richt's assertion to the contrary. Regardless, it will never return to the Flats, for reasons that should be obvious to any fan paying attention to how the previous regime ended. Fans of it need to appreciate what it did for us and let it go - it's not coming back.
LongforDodd
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I see your hedge about "no HS ran that offense" but at least two HS in Atlanta (one a perennial powerhouse who sends us SA's regularly and one who has had irregular success and sends us a few SA's also) run dam close versions of it. And again, I saw your hedge. It's called a HS offense because back when it was relatively new to us, it was run in HS's...in Ga. One of these HC told me personally nine years ago that he runs for the reason that others here give for it. But it was the "hedged" version...but close enough to ruffle feathers.
You really should take your own advice....LIG.
You may have the last word.
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Supersizethatorder-mutt
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Not only was that not a HS offense, there sure seem to be a lot of players on the team saying that they ran Collins' offense in HS. Of course, so do a lot of other teams in the country, so there's no real danger of Tech continuing to be slammed on that basis.
dressedcheeseside
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There’s a good chance we may be more “high school” than before yet lose the label anyway. Go figure.
gtstinger776
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This is a stupid f*cking debate that accomplishes nothing.
Techster
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A LOT of teams run the flex option in HS. Even more teams ran it before. The only reason why more teams in HS don't run the flex option now is the same reason teams in colleges don't run the flex option: Kids just didn't want to play in it.
https://www.si.com/college-football/2018/09/27/triple-option-offense-army-georgia-tech
“It’s not going extinct,” says Lou Cella, a sports psychologist and former high school coach who now consults high school teams wanting to implement Johnson’s triple option. “I get calls every day—people want to do it.”
Cella estimates that as many as 1,000 of the 14,000 high schools sponsoring football run at least some vestiges of the triple option. At the college level, where players have a choice about where they go to school (and in a time when, as Johnson says, everyone wants to be a wide receiver), it's harder to maintain. The sizzle factor is the option family’s toughest hurdle in a world enamored with passing statistics and wide-open play. For purists on the other hand, even slight variations on the old theme tarnish the essence of the option for some. There's no hiding which side Cella falls on. “Shotgun triple option is pure communism,” he says. “The more boring you are, the more yards you’ll accumulate.”
CPJ's system flat out wins. It does. Unfortunately, football is a voluntary sport. If you run something kids don't like, they won't play. Sad, but true. On the local level, St Pius runs it:
CPJ's offense can be as simple or as complicated as a coach wants it. Just like any other offense. If you don't believe me, just do a quick google search of Chip Kelly, or Urban Meyer's, or whoever Nick Saban's offensive coordinator is playbooks. Smart coaches tailor the offense to the level of the players they have. The quicker the kids can pick it up, the more you implement.
This whole flex option vs "pro" style offense and which one is more complex or more "high schoolish" is dumb. If you don't think Ralph Friedgen's offense is complex, then you should ask all the QBs and OLs he used to yell at on the sidelines.
EDIT:
Also, let me add. If a coach is making his system so complicated that kids can't execute it at a proficient level, then what's the point? That's just self defeating. (See: Al Groh)
https://www.si.com/college-football/2018/09/27/triple-option-offense-army-georgia-tech
“It’s not going extinct,” says Lou Cella, a sports psychologist and former high school coach who now consults high school teams wanting to implement Johnson’s triple option. “I get calls every day—people want to do it.”
Cella estimates that as many as 1,000 of the 14,000 high schools sponsoring football run at least some vestiges of the triple option. At the college level, where players have a choice about where they go to school (and in a time when, as Johnson says, everyone wants to be a wide receiver), it's harder to maintain. The sizzle factor is the option family’s toughest hurdle in a world enamored with passing statistics and wide-open play. For purists on the other hand, even slight variations on the old theme tarnish the essence of the option for some. There's no hiding which side Cella falls on. “Shotgun triple option is pure communism,” he says. “The more boring you are, the more yards you’ll accumulate.”
CPJ's system flat out wins. It does. Unfortunately, football is a voluntary sport. If you run something kids don't like, they won't play. Sad, but true. On the local level, St Pius runs it:
CPJ's offense can be as simple or as complicated as a coach wants it. Just like any other offense. If you don't believe me, just do a quick google search of Chip Kelly, or Urban Meyer's, or whoever Nick Saban's offensive coordinator is playbooks. Smart coaches tailor the offense to the level of the players they have. The quicker the kids can pick it up, the more you implement.
This whole flex option vs "pro" style offense and which one is more complex or more "high schoolish" is dumb. If you don't think Ralph Friedgen's offense is complex, then you should ask all the QBs and OLs he used to yell at on the sidelines.
EDIT:
Also, let me add. If a coach is making his system so complicated that kids can't execute it at a proficient level, then what's the point? That's just self defeating. (See: Al Groh)
gtstinger776
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2014 was a “back to our roots” season and The greatest football season of my life. I don’t think a pistol-shotgun offense would’ve accomplished what we did under PJ’s core offensive strategy. I wouldn’t trade that day in Athens or an Orange Bowl for anything. Call me a loser - those were top 10 days of my life.
RickStromFan
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don't tell me, tell @forensicbuzz who's trying to make it a debate. I simply remarked that we'll never see the Monken offense again, which frankly isn't a debatable topic.
jgtengineer
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If we were running Monken's variation we'd have been in the gun alot. He was in the gun at southern maybe 35 percent of the time, more so with Shaw than later with Mckinnon and Elison.
RickStromFan
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I wouldn't be surprised if Monken makes a career at West Point. What he's done there is amazing, right up there with PJ's turnaround at Navy. Which makes this Army guy quite happy!
GO ARMY
BEAT NAVY
forensicbuzz
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And we ran the option under Ralph Friedgen, twice. CPJ didn't invent what he ran, but he damn well developed it into what it is today. Bear Bryant ran it at Kentucky and Bobby Bowdon ran it at West Virginia. So what. Same concept, not the same offense. The blocking schemes CPJ developed were so complex and involved that we seldom did everything right. If I were to have any criticism of the spread option CPJ ran, it's that it was so complex that it took too long to master it. It was not a plug-and-play offense because it took game reps to get it down.
No one said that the Jimmy's and Joe's don't matter. Don't know where you came up with that. But all things being equal, with unlimited practice time, that offense (the total offense) would be unstoppable.
To call CPJ's offense a HS school offense or a service academy offense is being derisive. It is meant pejoratively. To claim anything else is laughable.