Potential playoff expansion

[TampaGT]

I think a goal for expanding the playoffs should be to have as many teams as possible at the beginning of the season have a path to winning the championship without having to go undefeated. With that said a 12 team playoff, with teams being Highest rank Group 5 champ, 1 at large bid, and the two teams that play in the Power 5confereence championship. So at the beginning of the season every Power 5 team has a chance for the 12 team playoffs if they just win their division minus the B-12. In years where you have 2 great teams in one division (BAma and LSU a few years back) the loser has a shot at the at large. This allows the regular season to be meaningful and most importantly, teams control their destiny and doesn’t allow voters to control which teams get in. You handle your business on the field and voters cant keep a team out in favor of another Sec team.

 

[SOWEGA Jacket]

Totally agree. But, you always have to remember the real reason is - MONEY. I‘ve accepted that long ago. So, guys who think like us need to use the lure of money to get to a fair system where every team has a shot even if they lose a game. And that‘s where expansion comes in and will continue. Expansion limits the complaining (I’d rather argue over 32 and 33 than 2 or 3) and brings in the cash. We went from 0 to 2 to 4 and soon to 12. 24 or 32 will be next. And another underlying issue solved by expansion is opting out. Like the portal, opting out is gonna continue to sky rocket after a 2nd loss under the current system.

 

[Northeast Stinger]

Yep. They ain’t playing school. They playing football.

And yes I’m cynical because I’ve been following college football for about 40 years so the innocence is gone and the corruption slaps you in the face. It use to be coaches twisting the arms of regional sportswriters for their vote. Then it turned into entire conferences twisting arms and gaming computer programs to get into the BCS. Now, we are suppose to believe a committee of the “finest” aren’t getting their arms twisted. And as a GT fan we have all seen our school get abused by the NCAA and the Tobacco Road ACC does nothing for us. They screwed Johnson over for a decade with giving teams byes. We got busted for clothes when UNC creates fraudulent programs to get in the game. It’s ridiculous even though I admire what UNC did. And guess what? They are now a team that gets ranked and talked about so it worked. Again, corruption in this system works because the system is built on corruption.

I don’t have to agree with everything you say to nonetheless agree that we should continually call out the system for constantly pedaling snake oil while telling us it’s the Ancient Greek ideal of merging intellectual pursuits with athletic endeavors.

 

[SOWEGA Jacket]

I don’t have to agree with everything you say to nonetheless agree that we should continually call out the system for constantly pedaling snake oil while telling us it’s the Ancient Greek ideal of merging intellectual pursuits with athletic endeavors.

Heck, I don’t even agree with myself half the time! But what else is the off season for except some fun discussions.

 

[TampaGT]

Totally agree. But, you always have to remember the real reason is - MONEY. I‘ve accepted that long ago. So, guys who think like us need to use the lure of money to get to a fair system where every team has a shot even if they lose a game. And that‘s where expansion comes in and will continue. Expansion limits the complaining (I’d rather argue over 32 and 33 than 2 or 3) and brings in the cash. We went from 0 to 2 to 4 and soon to 12. 24 or 32 will be next. And another underlying issue solved by expansion is opting out. Like the portal, opting out is gonna continue to sky rocket after a 2nd loss under the current system.

I think there would be money to make. 8 teams would get 1 extra home game. I think you get more tv money. Forcing teams that never really play real out of conference road games would bring in big tv ratings.

 

[orientalnc]

I think there would be money to make. 8 teams would get 1 extra home game. I think you get more tv money. Forcing teams that never really play real out of conference road games would bring in big tv ratings.

I firmly believe the biggest problem in college football is the enormous amount of money going to the biggest organizations. Couple that with the inequities in sharing the revenue and you have an explosive situation just waiting to happen. Bringing more money into college football just for the sake of more money is wrong. I don't have an answer, but this is not it. Expansion of the CFP has to come with fundamental changes.

 

[Northeast Stinger]

I firmly believe the biggest problem in college football is the enormous amount of money going to the biggest organizations. Couple that with the inequities in sharing the revenue and you have an explosive situation just waiting to happen. Bringing more money into college football just for the sake of more money is wrong. I don't have an answer, but this is not it. Expansion of the CFP has to come with fundamental changes.

If you really wanted to level the playing field each team would have a cap on how many five star and four star recruits they can have in each class. The NFL does this on a minor level with draft levels being determined by won/loss record. But colleges would be more severely limited in the degree to which they could “buy higher draft picks.”

 

[SOWEGA Jacket]

Yeah, but there is no way to limit that because the NCAA pretends to be about “school” so you can’t tell someone where they can’t go to school. There are always going to be teams with “more” in a system not built around the sport but rather using school as a guise. Pro teams can do it because it’s just sport. Expansion, however, gives more avenues for athletes to get on the big stage without having to go to 1 of 6 schools. I’m still just thrilled that we are even talking playoffs because I still remember that feeling when Colorado was awarded the National Title. And many other fans know that same feeling for 80 years when we allowed the media to pick it. Just think what we were fed for 80 years compared to now. It’s almost as if someone asked the question- what would be the worse system to use to pick a National Champ and let’s use it. And I understand the history that there was never an intent to pick a National Champ which is why we had multiple schools claiming titles that didn’t exist. What we have today is so much better than what we’ve ever had before that’s I’m still thrilled that the BCS was created. We all knew once they created the 1 vs. 2 that the growth of it was inevitable. I’m super excited to see my team have a shot on those years where we catch magic. As much as I loved the Orange Bowl win after the game I wanted more.

 

[NorthsideJacket]

Excellent article from Andy Staples in The Athletic -- it's behind a paywall, but for those who have a subscription:
Eliminate Divisions in Conference

His argument here is that with the new proposal, divisions in the conferences become a 'negative' to the conferences so all should revert back to a single conference standing (no divisions). A popular proposal being discussed for the 12 team SEC is described by Staples here: "Three permanent rivals would be declared for each school. The other opponents would cycle through evenly, allowing teams to face one another twice every four years. That way, a player who spends four years at an SEC school would be guaranteed to play in every SEC stadium at least once."

Looking at the possibility closer, I see two efficient ways of doing it, both with keeping an 8 game ACC schedule. One with 4 permanent covering 5 years, and one with 3 permanent spanning 4 years:

I just randomly chose the 3 and 4 permanent teams, but these 2 rotations seem to cover all the bases. The 8 game conference schedule still gives you OOC flexibility. Again, the whole impetus of this is the elimination of divisions to better situate yourself (conference) for the new selection criteria (six highest ranked conference champions, etc). Plus, it has you playing all teams in the conference worst case every other year.

What would be your choices for the 3 or 4 permanents?

 

[Coloradojacket]

Excellent article from Andy Staples in The Athletic -- it's behind a paywall, but for those who have a subscription:
Eliminate Divisions in Conference

His argument here is that with the new proposal, divisions in the conferences become a 'negative' to the conferences so all should revert back to a single conference standing (no divisions). A popular proposal being discussed for the 12 team SEC is described by Staples here: "Three permanent rivals would be declared for each school. The other opponents would cycle through evenly, allowing teams to face one another twice every four years. That way, a player who spends four years at an SEC school would be guaranteed to play in every SEC stadium at least once."

Looking at the possibility closer, I see two efficient ways of doing it, both with keeping an 8 game ACC schedule. One with 4 permanent covering 5 years, and one with 3 permanent spanning 4 years:
View attachment 10721
I just randomly chose the 3 and 4 permanent teams, but these 2 rotations seem to cover all the bases. The 8 game conference schedule still gives you OOC flexibility. Again, the whole impetus of this is the elimination of divisions to better situate yourself (conference) for the new selection criteria (six highest ranked conference champions, etc). Plus, it has you playing all teams in the conference worst case every other year.

What would be your choices for the 3 or 4 permanents?

4 Permanent, Clemson, Duke, VT, UNC. We have a lot of history with these teams. If Florida St gets good again you could face a year with ND, Clemson, Fla St. Miami UGA...rough.

 

[Southpawmac]

Excellent article from Andy Staples in The Athletic -- it's behind a paywall, but for those who have a subscription:
Eliminate Divisions in Conference

His argument here is that with the new proposal, divisions in the conferences become a 'negative' to the conferences so all should revert back to a single conference standing (no divisions). A popular proposal being discussed for the 12 team SEC is described by Staples here: "Three permanent rivals would be declared for each school. The other opponents would cycle through evenly, allowing teams to face one another twice every four years. That way, a player who spends four years at an SEC school would be guaranteed to play in every SEC stadium at least once."

Looking at the possibility closer, I see two efficient ways of doing it, both with keeping an 8 game ACC schedule. One with 4 permanent covering 5 years, and one with 3 permanent spanning 4 years:
View attachment 10721
I just randomly chose the 3 and 4 permanent teams, but these 2 rotations seem to cover all the bases. The 8 game conference schedule still gives you OOC flexibility. Again, the whole impetus of this is the elimination of divisions to better situate yourself (conference) for the new selection criteria (six highest ranked conference champions, etc). Plus, it has you playing all teams in the conference worst case every other year.

What would be your choices for the 3 or 4 permanents?

These tables don't really work because ND isn't counted as an ACC game. Also, the 3 permanent table doesn't include UVA. I like the 3 permanent and 8 games though. Permanents being Clemson, VT, Duke. Even if ND were to join and the ACC went to 16, I think 3 permanent and a rotation of the remainder is the best solution. As mentioned above, it allows a 4 year athlete to have a game at every stadium in the conference.

 

[RonJohn]

Excellent article from Andy Staples in The Athletic -- it's behind a paywall, but for those who have a subscription:
Eliminate Divisions in Conference

His argument here is that with the new proposal, divisions in the conferences become a 'negative' to the conferences so all should revert back to a single conference standing (no divisions). A popular proposal being discussed for the 12 team SEC is described by Staples here: "Three permanent rivals would be declared for each school. The other opponents would cycle through evenly, allowing teams to face one another twice every four years. That way, a player who spends four years at an SEC school would be guaranteed to play in every SEC stadium at least once."

Looking at the possibility closer, I see two efficient ways of doing it, both with keeping an 8 game ACC schedule. One with 4 permanent covering 5 years, and one with 3 permanent spanning 4 years:
View attachment 10721
I just randomly chose the 3 and 4 permanent teams, but these 2 rotations seem to cover all the bases. The 8 game conference schedule still gives you OOC flexibility. Again, the whole impetus of this is the elimination of divisions to better situate yourself (conference) for the new selection criteria (six highest ranked conference champions, etc). Plus, it has you playing all teams in the conference worst case every other year.

What would be your choices for the 3 or 4 permanents?

What happened to UVA in your 3 permanent schedule?

EDIT: Also, the SEC currently has 14 teams.

 

[billga99]

Even with 14 SEC (or ACC) teams, 3 permanent teams leaves 10 other opponents. So 5 of those each year means you play the other 10 teams in a 2 year period. So for those 10 teams you play each home and away over a four year cycle. I definitely like it. But the war will be which teams are the permanent cross overs. Tobacco road would probably like it to be the 4 NC schools. Clearly FSU and Miami, VA and Va Tech, GT and Clemson but the others become harder to predict. The other question becomes how do you deal with the ACC Championship game? I guess you follow the Big 12 approach of #1 vs. #2 in the final conference standings.

 

[SOWEGA Jacket]

See this is what I’m talking about! Instead of whining about something that is happening and will continue to increase create systems to complement it. It’s been what a week to 10 days since it was leaked and already you have smart people figuring out ways to make the entire system better. And I think a huge side benefit will be that highly ranked players won’t feel the need to all congregate at the same schools to get in the show. And just wait until you have the first ever playoff games on a campus. It’s gonna be an awesome environment just like we saw around college baseball last week. I can’t wait.

 

[augustabuzz]

Even with 14 SEC (or ACC) teams, 3 permanent teams leaves 10 other opponents. So 5 of those each year means you play the other 10 teams in a 2 year period. So for those 10 teams you play each home and away over a four year cycle. I definitely like it. But the war will be which teams are the permanent cross overs. Tobacco road would probably like it to be the 4 NC schools. Clearly FSU and Miami, VA and Va Tech, GT and Clemson but the others become harder to predict. The other question becomes how do you deal with the ACC Championship game? I guess you follow the Big 12 approach of #1 vs. #2 in the final conference standings.

Only 2 ACC teams regularly sellout BDS, Clemson and FSU.

 

[slugboy]

Regarding pods vs divisions, and 4 permanent rivals/members of the pod, there are some options

Money Train:

• Clemson
• FSU
• Notre Dame, if they’re in
• pick the remainder from VT, UNC, NCST

That would put more butts in seats and eyeballs on the screen for a guaranteed 4 games per year than anyone else.

Southern Exposure:

• Miami
• FSU
• Clemson
• pick one from tobacco road, or go west to Louisville

Picking the nearest schools is easy for three schools, but the fourth requires breaking up some neighbors.

Crib Courses:

• Wake Forest
• Syracuse
• Duke
• Florida State? Louisville?

Get the easiest pod, and get the fastest path to bowl eligibility (even if it’s the Jimmy Kimmel bowl).

 

[orientalnc]

Regarding pods vs divisions, and 4 permanent rivals/members of the pod, there are some options

Money Train:

• Clemson
• FSU
• Notre Dame, if they’re in
• pick the remainder from VT, UNC, NCST

That would put more butts in seats and eyeballs on the screen for a guaranteed 4 games per year than anyone else.

Southern Exposure:

• Miami
• FSU
• Clemson
• pick one from tobacco road, or go west to Louisville

Picking the nearest schools is easy for three schools, but the fourth requires breaking up some neighbors.

Crib Courses:

• Wake Forest
• Syracuse
• Duke
• Florida State? Louisville?

Get the easiest pod, and get the fastest path to bowl eligibility (even if it’s the Jimmy Kimmel bowl).

The ACC teams with the longest/strongest connection to GT are Clemson, FSU, and Duke (we have played them88 times in a series that dates back to 1933 and every year since). I agree that ND would be the 4th if the join. But, I would rather have VT than FSU. I like going to Blacksburg.

 

[BleedingWhiteNGold]

I like the idea, I'm for it. I don't think under the current system GT would have much of a chance of making the play-off. Under this new system, I think we do.

Before I sign-off on it, I need to see the details. A couple of my questions pertaining to the playoff.
1) This appears to be a play-off, but NOT a NCAA tournament. Is this correct?
2) Would they issue credits similar to the NCAA basketball tournament?
3) Does the home team (5-8) with the home play-in bowls get to keep ticket sales? The first round bye is nice. However, that play-in game will be one of the biggest games played in that home stadium. Those tickets will go for thousands. If the home team keeps the ticket sales, that's a huge influx of cash. This may be the big winner.
4) Who gets to broadcast the play-off home game? Would the TV contract be for all 12 games? Or would the conference TV contract apply to the play-in games?

I think the 12 team format if we go to it all but ensures Notre Dame stays independent. I think Jack Swarbrick knows that. Unless I'm mistaken Notre Dame's agreement with the ACC is that it gets to keep the play-off money if they make it to the play-offs, but has to split the bowl money if they don't make the play-off and fall into one of the ACC bowls. Under the 12 team playoff Notre Dame has the ability to make A LOT of money. Some of the sums online indicate that the total playoff may generate 188 million a year. Assuming they pay out per game. That would mean 8.31 million per credit. If Notre Dame were to make it to the semi-finals that's 24 million. If they join the ACC then they might skip the first round make it to the semi's, but they would have to split their winnings 16 ways.

This isn't an NCAA tournament, if the home team keeps the ticket sales for the play-in game then that's even more money for the home school. If not there are other streams of revenue that a school would profit from, just by having 55,000-100,000 fans coming onto campus. If the power 5 decide to allow the play-in games to be broadcast by their respective TV partner, then that would make their TV contracts more profitable. It would also be a way for the P5 to not share money with the none P5 teams. Most of the 5-8 teams would come from a P5 conference. It would also make Notre Dames TV contract more valuable.

In an ideal world, the have credits issue them similar to the basketball. Do the payout similar to basketball over some set time limit 5-years. Home team gets a small stipend for hosting the game and gets to keep concessions, ticket sale proceeds are handed over to the tournament to be distributed (similar to NFL). One TV contract for all all 11 games.

People mention that this is bad for Notre Dame, that assumes their goal is to win championships. I think this ensures they never join a conference. I think 8 team tournament with automatic tie-ins would of pushed them to join, but at 12 teams they still have a shot and they get to keep ALL the proceeds. Their independence and the heaping gobs of money they stand to make and NOT split 16 ways, far out weigh the opportunity to get a first round by.

 

[TooTall]

Their independence and the heaping gobs of money they stand to make and NOT split 16 ways, far out weigh the opportunity to get a first round by.

Until they lose 3 years in a row in the first round....

 

[Oldgoldandwhite]

I can see a lot of advantages especially to GT.
But disadvantages?
Dilute the Bowls, if that is possible anymore.
Cost of travel for the average fan if your team keeps winning.
The SEC getting in 5 or more teams.
1st round home teams having a huge advantage.
Some obvious blow outs.
Personally I would go with 16.