PFF Grades Through UNC Game

jgtengineer

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Another font posted photos of PFF player grades over the years. Ryan Johnson was actually a fairly good and respectable rated OL earlier in his UT career. Now after a 1+ year of coaching under Key he's rated as the #321 OG out of 406 OGs? I would be interested in knowing how Minihan and Cooper rated under CPJ.

As I said, a good coach takes what he has and makes them better. I don't expect any of our OLs that were recruited under CPJ to rank in the top 10-50 of their respected positions, but to rank in the bottom half is a really big disappointment.

PFF gets broken by Veer systems so i have no idea what they would be rated. I know there is a minimal number of drop backs thing and if we only throw it 5 times a game technically none of our lineman would reach that.
 

LongforDodd

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Another font posted photos of PFF player grades over the years. Ryan Johnson was actually a fairly good and respectable rated OL earlier in his UT career. Now after a 1+ year of coaching under Key he's rated as the #321 OG out of 406 OGs? I would be interested in knowing how Minihan and Cooper rated under CPJ.

As I said, a good coach takes what he has and makes them better. I don't expect any of our OLs that were recruited under CPJ to rank in the top 10-50 of their respected positions, but to rank in the bottom half is a really big disappointment.
And Key developed his reputation at AL with many more cumulative recruiting stars to work with?

PFF? How many eyeballs are employed by that service to accurately grade every player that participates on every play in college football? That service comes with a huge box of salt grains. I tend to trust what I see as much as anything.
 

Techster

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And Key developed his reputation at AL with many more cumulative recruiting stars to work with?

PFF? How many eyeballs are employed by that service to accurately grade every player that participates on every play in college football? That service comes with a huge box of salt grains. I tend to trust what I see as much as anything.

I still think Key is a good coach. There's truth to your point that 'Bama had more higher rated players to work with...and 'Bama is just a machine. It's more Saban's system working together than it is the individual coaches. Saban doesn't hire bad coaches...and he moved his staff around to hire Key, so I don't think Saban would do that for an average OL coach.

I also agree PFF isn't the end all...however, it doesn't take a trained eye to see that our OL is probably the poorest performing group on the team right now. We'll see how it plays out this year. I think we are a bit better than last season, and a LOT better than Year 1 of this CGC and Key's tenure.

Next year it will be ALL Key's OL recruits, so we'll see how it plays out over the next few seasons. Key also has two 4 star OL recruits committed this cycle. That was another area I was disappointed in given his reputation, but it seems he's making headway there.
 

slugboy

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And Key developed his reputation at AL with many more cumulative recruiting stars to work with?

PFF? How many eyeballs are employed by that service to accurately grade every player that participates on every play in college football? That service comes with a huge box of salt grains. I tend to trust what I see as much as anything.
Key had a good reputation from before Alabama. Saban is hiring people who have already made their reputations. He’s even hired ex-NFL head coaches.
 

85Escape

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Key is fine. We need to relax and give the process the time it needs. All this stuff is connected and we just need to focus on continual improvement across the board. The cumulative effective of incremental gains is disproportionate when applied across a system of systems.

Quote from recent article on the topic below (with link to full article):

The 1% marginal gains rule

Sir Dave Brailsford, former performance director of British Cycling, revolutionized the sport using the theory of marginal gains.
Brailsford believed that if you make a 1% improvement in a host of tiny areas, the cumulative benefits would be extraordinary. The theory of marginal gains (or, as I sometimes call it, “microexcellence”) has been credited for vaulting the British cycling team from a mediocre performer to 16 gold medals over two Olympics and seven Tour de France wins in eight years. The examples of microexcellence used by the British cycling team are legendary in the sports world.
 

TromboneJacket

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Really disappointed in this. Brent Key came in with an elite reputation for developing OL...but the performances on the OL have not really been that good. Cochrane was already an elite pass blocking tackle before he transferred to GT, so that can't be credited to Key. I didn't expect a miracle, but I was hoping our guys would at least grade out in the top half at their respective positions. You can't totally put it on CPJ either for guys like Minihan and Cooper...not when you look at what our other coaches are doing at other positions with guys from the CPJ era. Jordan Williams is Key's guy...and even Williams seems to be stagnant in his development.

Dante Smith and Jordan Mason have gotten better. Charlie Thomas and Quez Jackson have gotten better. Jordan Domineck, Jaquon Griffin, Djimon Brooks (a walkon) have all gotten better. Heck, I thought LBs would again struggle, but they seem to now be the strength of our defense with Thomas and Jackson leading the way. That's a credit to Marco Coleman (OLBs) and Andrew Thacker (LBs).

Maybe the OL will improve as the season goes on, and each OL will grade out better. I hope so, because right now as a unit, they have the lowest collective grade and the most room to improve.
I agree that the OL has been disappointing so far, but a big factor I think you’re overlooking is continuity. Most of our guys haven’t played with each other more than a year. Additionally, you have to remember that PFF is a rating of a player’s performance in a game, his level of success. Not his technique, not his discipline (although those both factor in), but his performance. It doesn’t normalize for talent; talent is part of the score. For example, a cornerback who gets beaten because he’s smaller and slower than his receiver still gets dinged for that, even if he did everything he could given the circumstances. So it very well could be that Brent Key is teaching good technique but that the talent is limiting the performance and that some of the more talented players are either young and still learning or new to the program and still getting settled in. The only one that’s a significant disappointment to me is Ryan Johnson. He should have the talent, experience, and continuity to be getting better performance (plus Right Guard is the easiest position on the line to play), but we seem to be getting better each game, so I want to see how the unit comes together throughout the season before writing off Coach Key.
 

Techster

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I agree that the OL has been disappointing so far, but a big factor I think you’re overlooking is continuity. Most of our guys haven’t played with each other more than a year. Additionally, you have to remember that PFF is a rating of a player’s performance in a game, his level of success. Not his technique, not his discipline (although those both factor in), but his performance. It doesn’t normalize for talent; talent is part of the score. For example, a cornerback who gets beaten because he’s smaller and slower than his receiver still gets dinged for that, even if he did everything he could given the circumstances. So it very well could be that Brent Key is teaching good technique but that the talent is limiting the performance and that some of the more talented players are either young and still learning or new to the program and still getting settled in. The only one that’s a significant disappointment to me is Ryan Johnson. He should have the talent, experience, and continuity to be getting better performance (plus Right Guard is the easiest position on the line to play), but we seem to be getting better each game, so I want to see how the unit comes together throughout the season before writing off Coach Key.

I'm not writing off Key. I think he's still a very good coach. I think my disappointment comes from how high I thought of him versus what we've seen so far. Maybe my expectations were too high? This OL is WAY better than what it was his first season. However, I also expected a higher level of development for each individual OL. Outside of Cochrane, who was an elite level OT before he got here, our OL ratings have been way below average.

PFF isn't the end all. It's more important to me that our OL as a group does its job, opens up holes for our RB, and gives our QB time to find the WRs. Let's see how the season plays out. If we win the Coastal and go to the ACCCG, no one will care that Minihan, Johnson, Williams, and Cooper are ranked low according to PFF.
 

augustabuzz

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Regarding pass protection, it really looks like Sims takes a deeper drop or rolls out a little deeper than Yates. Yates is pretty good at staying in the pass protection pocket, but that breaks down too quickly or Yates is holding the ball a little too long. Both quarterbacks have a bunch of positives about them. What troubled me was Yates got sacked a couple of times by Kennesaw State and it wasn't because he held onto the ball too long.
Yes, there were occasions where we had 5 blocking their 8.
 

malak05

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Can you tell us how many snaps each backup OL have gotten? I am worried about next years OL having no experience>
Thanks,
Bob
I believe I heard Pendley/Wing Green/Lay played some at snaps I could be wrong so going into next year you got these guys as most likely fits for the openings Pendley, W.Green, B.Leftwich, W.Franklin, Lay, Vaipulu, Tyler Gibson, and whoever you may get as a transfer to come in and compete for those spots.
This would probably be your reasonable thoughts toward next years Oline. LT - ?, LG - ?, C-Minihan, RG - ?, RT - Williams
 

goldfella

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I believe I heard Pendley/Wing Green/Lay played some at snaps I could be wrong so going into next year you got these guys as most likely fits for the openings Pendley, W.Green, B.Leftwich, W.Franklin, Lay, Vaipulu, Tyler Gibson, and whoever you may get as a transfer to come in and compete for those spots.
This would probably be your reasonable thoughts toward next years Oline. LT - ?, LG - ?, C-Minihan, RG - ?, RT - Williams
Yeah, I remember seeing Pendley and Vaipulu play at least some snaps
 

goldfella

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It is important to note that PFF can be pretty hit or miss on the OL grading. I think there is at least some level of subjectivity, plus it can be possible to do everything right and still get "beaten" by a well-disguised blitz. Maybe I have the wrong idea of their grading process, but I remember from somewhere that PFF's OL grades in particular are notoriously questionable.

There is definitely room for improvement, but PFF grades shouldn't be the end all be all.
 

Augusta_Jacket

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Other than the starters these were the participants in the game per GT:

Georgia Tech 2-Carpenter, Tariq, 3-Rey, Azende, 4-Smith, Dontae, 5-Chimedza, T.K., 7-Walton, Zamari, 8-McCollum, Nate, 10-Sims, Jeff, 11-Harris, Kevin, 12-Watson, Kenyatta, 12-Sanders, Adonicas, 16-Sims, Myles, 17-Knight II, Demetrius, 18-Harris, PeJe', 20-Brooks, Miles, 22-Edwards, Kaleb, 23-King, Ryan, 24-Johnson, Kenan, 25-Thomas, Charlie, 27-Robinson, Josh, 27-Mason, Jordan, 31-Kennard, Kyle, 32-Yondjouen, Sylvain, 40-Tatum, Trenilyas, 42-Cimaglia, Brent, 43- Shanahan, David, 45-McCawley, Taylor, 47-Kent, Austin, 52-Long, Cade, 60-Vaipulu, Paula, 73-Kirby, Kenneth, 79-Lay III, William, 85-Ward, Billy, 88-Stewart, Gavin, 88-Biggers, Zeek, 90-Scott, Makius, 94-Lockhart, Mike, 95-Griffin, JaQuon
 

Techster

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Kenneth Kirby has played 17 snaps, William Lay has played 31, and Nick Pendley has played 80.

I wonder what the deal with Kirby is. He's an NFL prospect. Maybe it's playing shape or not knowing the playbook well enough. It's not a talent issue given how we can use an upgrade at 3 spots on the OL.
 

Madison Grant

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I wonder what the deal with Kirby is. He's an NFL prospect. Maybe it's playing shape or not knowing the playbook well enough. It's not a talent issue given how we can use an upgrade at 3 spots on the OL.
Just a guess: he doesn't have the footwork down for right tackle. He can only play left tackle, and he can't beat out Cochran. No telling what kind of coaching he got at Norfolk State. He's only had a fall with us. Wish he was like White and Eley and had 2 years with us.
 
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