Passing in 2014

jeffgt14

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He needs to be in the shotgun more often in my opinion. Someone with his skill set needs to work in space along with a lot of our players. Nesbitt was good in our offense because he was a bruiser..I think it's a waste to see JT under center 90% of the time.
The only advantage shotgun provides is the ability to see the field and read the defense pre-snap better. His athleticism is just as effective under center.
 

daBuzz

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The only advantage shotgun provides is the ability to see the field and read the defense pre-snap better. His athleticism is just as effective under center.

Not true on pass plays. The entire reasoning behind why the Dallas Cowboys first implemented the shotgun was to move the QB farther away from the line and afford him an extra second of time.

If you'll notice on the pass play linked above where JT throws the interception against Miami, he takes out a 3-step drop out of the shotgun set. Essentially, he ends up dropping slightly beyond the depth of a usual 5-step drop from under center. JT releases the ball around 2.04 seconds (according to my unofficial timing using a stopwatch against the replay), which is almost a full second faster than the average time for a 5-step drop by an NFL quarterback.
 

IronJacket7

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He needs to be in the shotgun more often in my opinion. Someone with his skill set needs to work in space along with a lot of our players. Nesbitt was good in our offense because he was a bruiser..I think it's a waste to see JT under center 90% of the time.
+1
He could be even more dangerous from the spread/shotgun look. imo.
 

Sean311

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I just look at it from an option point of view. The defenders have to commit to him when he can just make one cut and blow by them instead of having to run for his life...but that's just my opinion. If I told this to CPJ he would probably look at me like I had no idea what I was talking about.
 

IronJacket7

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I just look at it from an option point of view. The defenders have to commit to him when he can just make one cut and blow by them instead of having to run for his life...but that's just my opinion. If I told this to CPJ he would probably look at me like I had no idea what I was talking about.
I agree. I also look at it like this. Our base Flexbone formations are somewhat compressed by nature. Even with the motions and misdirections most of the action remains confined to a certain area of the field.

Using JT in pistol or shotgun spread formations it puts much more pressure on the defense to defend not only the entire field but having to contain lightning in a bottle.

And I hope that anyone reading this will understand that I am not saying change what we are doing (get rid of CPJ and all that crap).

My only point is that JT would flourish more in a true spread offense. Again jmo.
 

Boomergump

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Lots of good discussion here. I will add a few thoughts.

While I think we can improve some in the way of pass protection in our current scheme, I think we are unlikely to make a huge jump. Keep in mind, our guys line up with wider splits than pretty much any other OL in the nation. When you combine that with them having a hand on the ground as well, it makes it nearly impossible to protect at the level many of us are looking for. We do those things because they are good for the run game and they give us a good "run look" when we are really going to pass. That scheme is unlikely to change. It will hardly be a kiss of death in the passing game however. In my mind, there are two areas that need to improve for the passing game to take off, even with those protection issues. First, we must handle the attacking defense better in the run game. Defenses were blitzing us almost every play with total disregard for run or pass. They figured it was good against the run and if it ended up being a pass play they would just keep on coming. If we execute the run phase better against a flooded LOS, then it will help take care of that problem. They will do it less if they get burned. Secondly, we must learn to dump off to check down receivers more consistently. Those plays are very often there and we haven't hit them because we were forcing the ball down field. The screen against the blitz is one of the most tried and true strategies in football. Those plays often end up in huge gains.

As far as QBs are concerned, we have had a string of guys with considerable limitations in the CPJ era. None of them, including the guys in camp now, will ever be considered lights out throwers. Nesbitt had the arm strength but severe accuracy and touch issues. He excelled throwing the 50+jump ball, but ask him to throw a 15 touch pass leading a receiver and he was hopeless. Tevin developed as a QB who saw the field and went to the right guy, but he couldn't throw accurately on the run and he didn't have the raw arm strength to hit the deep receiver running past the defense. Vad had the ability to throw well when he stepped into the release, but he didn't consistently do it. He didn't see the field real well either, threw to the wrong guy a lot, and forced the ball deep into low percentage attempts when automatic 10 yard runs and dump offs were right in front of him. What encourages me is that we have a couple guys in the two deep that, despite some limitations, have the ability to improve in these areas.

I have seen JT keep his eyes down field while scrambling and finding guys in creases. He actually throws quite well on the run, well, going towards his throwing side anyway. He has the arm strength to get the ball down field. We haven't seen him do it in a college game, but I saw him flick a ball 45-50 yards down field while on the run several plays on his HS film. The field isn't longer in college. Arm strength doesn't decrease without injury. He can lead receivers and throw with a certain level of accuracy. He doesn't need to be all world as a thrower. He just needs a decent combination of the things mentioned above to be successful. I think the mass opinion is that he will be good for the run game. If that turns out to be true, I think we will be surprised how well the air attack works. He needs to stop forcing everything and telegraphing his throws on well run designed routes. When scrambling and improvising that weakness gets mitigated somewhat, but when standing in the pocket he needs to control the defense with his eyes better and release the ball into safe areas on time.

TB sees the field. I hope by now that is beyond dispute. I happen to have a lot of respect for him as a decision maker. I don't have as good a feel for him as a thrower because of the spring game weather and the garbage time running he did in games last year. We will have to see. On the surface, he appears to have, at least, TW's arm strength. Hopefully it is better, but I can't say for sure. I think he recognizes where to throw ball...you know... to holes in the defense.

In summary, I think both of these guys have a chance to be a bit of a remedy for the alarming weaknesses of their predecessors, even without being prolific. I think most of us would have considered NIck Marshall an effective thrower last season. What does he have that the guys on our roster don't?
 

Sean311

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I agree. I also look at it like this. Our base Flexbone formations are somewhat compressed by nature. Even with the motions and misdirections most of the action remains confined to a certain area of the field.

Using JT in pistol or shotgun spread formations it puts much more pressure on the defense to defend not only the entire field but having to contain lightning in a bottle.

And I hope that anyone reading this will understand that I am not saying change what we are doing (get rid of CPJ and all that crap).

My only point is that JT would flourish more in a true spread offense. Again jmo.

That's exactly how I wanted to word it haha
 

daBuzz

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In summary, I think both of these guys have a chance to be a bit of a remedy for the alarming weaknesses of their predecessors, even without being prolific. I think most of us would have considered NIck Marshall an effective thrower last season. What does he have that the guys on our roster don't?

Excellent post.
To answer your question though...he had an OL that was much better than ours and his receivers were overall better than ours. It also didn't hurt to have Tre Mason in the backfield with him. And I DO realize your question was rhetorical, since you obviously know this stuff better than I do.

But one other thing that he had though....he had a slightly simpler option read than our QB's. The spread option they run is a fairly simple to teach/implement/execute read on the playside DE. It's also read from the shotgun, so their mesh point has a bit of separation from the O-line, whereas our mesh happens "in the trash" quite often. Given that separation, you can take a guy like Nick Marshall and let him simply use his athleticism to try & escape the pocket when the crashing defensive lineman or linebacker makes it through to try & disrupt the mesh. Sometimes he gets caught but often times, he is able to use his quickness and at least escape the initial tackle. At which point, he may opt to pitch, keep or potentially even throw it away (depending on the OL blocking scheme on whether that would be legal or not).
 

dressedcheeseside

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I think it's funny when GT goes in the shotgun it's "trying to do to much" but with every other team it's basically their base offense.
The reason it's too much for us is because of the amount of repetition our base offense requires. If you take reps away from that, you stink at everything, good at nothing. You'd have to completely eliminate our base offense and adopt the shotgun spread as our new base. If we did that, yeah - right, we'd have the players to be darn good at it.
 

jeffgt14

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Not true on pass plays. The entire reasoning behind why the Dallas Cowboys first implemented the shotgun was to move the QB farther away from the line and afford him an extra second of time.

If you'll notice on the pass play linked above where JT throws the interception against Miami, he takes out a 3-step drop out of the shotgun set. Essentially, he ends up dropping slightly beyond the depth of a usual 5-step drop from under center. JT releases the ball around 2.04 seconds (according to my unofficial timing using a stopwatch against the replay), which is almost a full second faster than the average time for a 5-step drop by an NFL quarterback.
I don’t agree that a QB should even be taking a 5 step drop to throw a 7 yard hitch route to the long side of the field. He’s basically 8-9 yards behind the line of scrimmage by the time he releases the ball.
 

Squints

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Not really. We don't throw the ball up for grabs inside the 20 much if at all, so our WRs don't have to be 6'5. We need guys that can stretch the field. I like that we are going with 6'0 - 6''2 WRs with a little more speed. We don't need more Waller's and Jeff Greene's who are projects.

It is nice to have every once in a while though thinking mainly of that pass from Vad to Waller in the UNC game. I've always wonder if our guys showed they could get those jump balls more consistently if we'd do it more often or if it's just a quirk of CPJ's play calling.
 

iceeater1969

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This is the play right after the monster hit… not much time to set. Smelter went after the ball.

Qb Set up too deep for _rt who can't cut off de for deep that deep of a drop,

No reason for left tackle to block down - ( he and left guard double team the one dt and center and guard double team the other dt) this leaves DE unblocked to the aback (who does nothing at all on whole play) and the back who dives at ankles.

With a little better blocking this play would be a lot better.

If this continues, it's the head coach
 

nodawgs

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It is nice to have every once in a while though thinking mainly of that pass from Vad to Waller in the UNC game. I've always wonder if our guys showed they could get those jump balls more consistently if we'd do it more often or if it's just a quirk of CPJ's play calling.
I'm sure it's in the play book, but I think CPJ prefers to run it in the red zone or throw a slant. Don't get me wrong, if there is a top notch 6'5 guy like Calvin take him, but I just don't see height being a necessity. I would rather throw a jump ball to Smelter instead of Waller, Stephen Hill, or Jeff Greene anyway.
 
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