Offense transition

[orientalnc]

There's a reason Bama quit running the TO. Same for Texas and OU (although OU ran a variation for a long time). And they didn't immediately go to a wide open passing game. The early to mid 80's (post wishbone era) was feature back time--Walker, Bo Jackson, George Rogers. Bama, Texas, OU couldn't recruit the feature back with the TO--or the supporting cast for it. Neither could GT.

Why certain big money guys thought the TO would work at Tech is beyond me given our other issues with recruiting. And we lost the recruiting benefit of Megatron and Bay Bay and their NFL success in the process. I don't blame Paul Johnson--I blame the GTAA they knew what they were getting and were willing to pay him double what they paid Gailey to get it. It just never made any sense that Tech could somehow recruit for the TO when other P5 programs knew they could not.

And to those who say it was a strategic advantage, well, not much of one. Any success had more to do with Johnson's ability with blocking schemes than the TO per se.
Just like Ralph Friedgen's ability to create matchups and design and install game plans was an advantage, and not some "scheme". Any advantage from the TO was lost in recruiting, as the overall record of the last 9 years shows. If we had a recruiting class close to 2007 every 2 or 3 years, then the last 9 years would have been more like 2008 -2009, but it wasn't going to happen running the TO.

This sounds like a lament for a decade of shame. I am looking forward to the CGC era, but I don't see any reason to apologize for enjoying the TO.

 

[Techster]

There's a reason Bama quit running the TO. Same for Texas and OU (although OU ran a variation for a long time). And they didn't immediately go to a wide open passing game. The early to mid 80's (post wishbone era) was feature back time--Walker, Bo Jackson, George Rogers. Bama, Texas, OU couldn't recruit the feature back with the TO--or the supporting cast for it. Neither could GT.

Why certain big money guys thought the TO would work at Tech is beyond me given our other issues with recruiting. And we lost the recruiting benefit of Megatron and Bay Bay and their NFL success in the process. I don't blame Paul Johnson--I blame the GTAA they knew what they were getting and were willing to pay him double what they paid Gailey to get it. It just never made any sense that Tech could somehow recruit for the TO when other P5 programs knew they could not.

And to those who say it was a strategic advantage, well, not much of one. Any success had more to do with Johnson's ability with blocking schemes than the TO per se.
Just like Ralph Friedgen's ability to create matchups and design and install game plans was an advantage, and not some "scheme". Any advantage from the TO was lost in recruiting, as the overall record of the last 9 years shows. If we had a recruiting class close to 2007 every 2 or 3 years, then the last 9 years would have been more like 2008 -2009, but it wasn't going to happen running the TO.

This probably belongs in another thread, but I'll play along (until the mods move it).

I always thought CPJ was probably about 10-15 years too late for GT. I've written about it previously in multiple other threads, but the biggest thing about CPJ's timing with GT is the popularity in utilizing dual threat QBs. When CPJ got here, the popular refrain was this offense was going to give athletic QBs a chance to play QB instead of moving to another position because other schools didn't want dual threat QBs...they wanted drop back NFL type passers. Unfortunately, CPJ arrived at GT about the same time as spread offenses were becoming popular. Coaches begin to see the value in having dual threat QBs with big arms regardless of height or "pro style" qualities. You don't have to look any further than 'Bama and Duke to see this. Where once Saban and Cutcliffe put emphasis in recruiting those "traditional" NFL drop back passers, they started to shift to more dual threat QBs and wide open spread attacks. Other factories schools did the same. The same guys GT probably would have been able to sign 10-15 years ago pre-spread craze, now had more options (no pun intended) to play QB in college rather than move positions.

CPJ also came at a time social media exploded. Combine that with CPJ's ambivalence towards social media, and the narrative against the triple option based offense really hurt GT under CPJ. Remember, it took CPJ a few years to get on social media, and he definitely did not embrace it the same way coaches at other schools did. A narrative about his offense started to form, and he never negated (outside of arguing with radio jocks).

I'm not saying kids would have lined up 10-15 years ago to play in his offense, but I think recruiting would have been much better and he certainly would have had an easier time recruiting key skill players and defenders back before dual threat QBs and social media took off.

Not taking anything away from the kids that played for CPJ because we did go to 3 ACCCGs, 2 Orange Bowls, and had a winning seasons in 8 of the 10 years CPJ coached here. I just think, like most things in life, timing is everything. As well as CPJ did at GT, it could have definitely been MUCH MUCH better if not for the timing of events out of GT and CPJ's control.

 

[Augusta_Jacket]

This probably belongs in another thread, but I'll play along (until the mods move it).

I always thought CPJ was probably about 10-15 years too late for GT. I've written about it previously in multiple other threads, but the biggest thing about CPJ's timing with GT is the popularity in utilizing dual threat QBs. When CPJ got here, the popular refrain was this offense was going to give athletic QBs a chance to play QB instead of moving to another position because other schools didn't want dual threat QBs...they wanted drop back NFL type passers. Unfortunately, CPJ arrived at GT about the same time as spread offenses were becoming popular. Coaches begin to see the value in having dual threat QBs with big arms regardless of height or "pro style" qualities. You don't have to look any further than 'Bama and Duke to see this. Where once Saban and Cutcliffe put emphasis in recruiting those "traditional" NFL drop back passers, they started to shift to more dual threat QBs and wide open spread attacks. Other factories schools did the same. The same guys GT probably would have been able to sign 10-15 years ago pre-spread craze, now had more options (no pun intended) to play QB in college rather than move positions.

CPJ also came at a time social media exploded. Combine that with CPJ's ambivalence towards social media, and the narrative against the triple option based offense really hurt GT under CPJ. Remember, it took CPJ a few years to get on social media, and he definitely did not embrace it the same way coaches at other schools did. A narrative about his offense started to form, and he never negated (outside of arguing with radio jocks).

I'm not saying kids would have lined up 10-15 years ago to play in his offense, but I think recruiting would have been much better and he certainly would have had an easier time recruiting key skill players and defenders back before dual threat QBs and social media took off.

Not taking anything away from the kids that played for CPJ because we did go to 3 ACCCGs, 2 Orange Bowls, and had a winning seasons in 8 of the 10 years CPJ coached here. I just think, like most things in life, timing is everything. As well as CPJ did at GT, it could have definitely been MUCH MUCH better if not for the timing of events out of GT and CPJ's control.

I've always agreed with your take on this, and I think Nebraska somewhat proves the theory. Their option based attack in the 90's was darn near unstoppable, but with the explosion of spread based offenses, more schools were competing with the Huskers for the QBs and athletes that used to be drawn to that system. Hence, you really haven't seen the sustained excellence UN used to enjoy.

 

[iceeater1969]

Imo, the leather gloves have made a major improvement in the catch rate for receivers. Add that holding by ol is legal for pass blocking. It sucks.

 

[Northeast Stinger]

Imo, the leather gloves have made a major improvement in the catch rate for receivers. Add that holding by ol is legal for pass blocking. It sucks.

Wasn't it 2015 against Notre Dame where we were held on almost literally every pass play? I remember saying to myself, "Hmmm, the rules for holding have channged."

 

[RickStromFan]

Damn i miss our offense.

View attachment 5853

The Packers gave up the 3rd most sacks in the NFL last year and have gotten A-Rod killed the past few years. I don't miss that offense though it'd be nice to be able to throw it like the Pack does.

 

[iceeater1969]

The Packers gave up the 3rd most sacks in the NFL last year and have gotten A-Rod killed the past few years. I don't miss that offense though it'd be nice to be able to throw it like the Pack does.

Poor old byron bell left u of new mexico, drove the same car he had in college, saved his money as he played backup and starter for panthers, titans, cowboys, packers and now is on outside looking for a contract while looking a career options. Nice little nest egg too .

 

[takethepoints]

This probably belongs in another thread, but I'll play along (until the mods move it).

I always thought CPJ was probably about 10-15 years too late for GT. I've written about it previously in multiple other threads, but the biggest thing about CPJ's timing with GT is the popularity in utilizing dual threat QBs. When CPJ got here, the popular refrain was this offense was going to give athletic QBs a chance to play QB instead of moving to another position because other schools didn't want dual threat QBs...they wanted drop back NFL type passers. Unfortunately, CPJ arrived at GT about the same time as spread offenses were becoming popular. Coaches begin to see the value in having dual threat QBs with big arms regardless of height or "pro style" qualities. You don't have to look any further than 'Bama and Duke to see this. Where once Saban and Cutcliffe put emphasis in recruiting those "traditional" NFL drop back passers, they started to shift to more dual threat QBs and wide open spread attacks. Other factories schools did the same. The same guys GT probably would have been able to sign 10-15 years ago pre-spread craze, now had more options (no pun intended) to play QB in college rather than move positions.

CPJ also came at a time social media exploded. Combine that with CPJ's ambivalence towards social media, and the narrative against the triple option based offense really hurt GT under CPJ. Remember, it took CPJ a few years to get on social media, and he definitely did not embrace it the same way coaches at other schools did. A narrative about his offense started to form, and he never negated (outside of arguing with radio jocks).

I'm not saying kids would have lined up 10-15 years ago to play in his offense, but I think recruiting would have been much better and he certainly would have had an easier time recruiting key skill players and defenders back before dual threat QBs and social media took off.

Not taking anything away from the kids that played for CPJ because we did go to 3 ACCCGs, 2 Orange Bowls, and had a winning seasons in 8 of the 10 years CPJ coached here. I just think, like most things in life, timing is everything. As well as CPJ did at GT, it could have definitely been MUCH MUCH better if not for the timing of events out of GT and CPJ's control.

Paul did a great job of recruiting kids who were "… athletic QBs a chance to play QB instead of moving to another position because other schools didn't want dual threat QBs …". Do I really have to name names here? (The most recent is, of course, Jordan Yates.) Tech got several of them and for the very reason you cite: they wanted to play QB and other schools wanted them as DBs or "athletes". What we had problems with was keeping the recruits healthy, usually from sheer bad luck. No doubt we would have liked to get, say, Daniel Jones; if I remember right, Paul did recruit him. But Tech did ok with exactly the scenario you say we faltered at because of timing. I agree that timing makes a difference, but if Paul had been recruiting in the "opti0n era" Tevin, Ratliff (oh, what could have been), JT, or, for that matter, Jordan Yates would never have come to Tech. It works both ways.

I've heard this argument before but … What, exactly, would coaches recruiting against Tech pick on if not the offensive system? It was unique. Players would have to spend a year or so learning what to do. Besides, Tech is hard! I don't think Paul could have stopped this if he had powers like Albus Dumbledore. It would spring up anyway and all Paul could do was keep winning - he usually did - and keep recruiting players who fit what he wanted to do.

Personally, I think Paul would have had a much better record at Tech if he hadn't lost Ratliff, Jordan, and Griffin to career ending injuries, or Dedrick, Marshall, Leggett, Klock, and Jones to transfer. It was, as you say, "… events out of GT and CPJ's control", but I'm not convinced that timing for the spread option had much to do with it. But opinions differ on this, to say the least.

 

[Techster]

Paul did a great job of recruiting kids who were "… athletic QBs a chance to play QB instead of moving to another position because other schools didn't want dual threat QBs …". Do I really have to name names here? (The most recent is, of course, Jordan Yates.) Tech got several of them and for the very reason you cite: they wanted to play QB and other schools wanted them as DBs or "athletes". What we had problems with was keeping the recruits healthy, usually from sheer bad luck. No doubt we would have liked to get, say, Daniel Jones; if I remember right, Paul did recruit him. But Tech did ok with exactly the scenario you say we faltered at because of timing. I agree that timing makes a difference, but if Paul had been recruiting in the "opti0n era" Tevin, Ratliff (oh, what could have been), JT, or, for that matter, Jordan Yates would never have come to Tech. It works both ways.

I've heard this argument before but … What, exactly, would coaches recruiting against Tech pick on if not the offensive system? It was unique. Players would have to spend a year or so learning what to do. Besides, Tech is hard! I don't think Paul could have stopped this if he had powers like Albus Dumbledore. It would spring up anyway and all Paul could do was keep winning - he usually did - and keep recruiting players who fit what he wanted to do.

Personally, I think Paul would have had a much better record at Tech if he hadn't lost Ratliff, Jordan, and Griffin to career ending injuries, or Dedrick, Marshall, Leggett, Klock, and Jones to transfer. It was, as you say, "… events out of GT and CPJ's control", but I'm not convinced that timing for the spread option had much to do with it. But opinions differ on this, to say the least.

If it's your opinion that everything was just fine and dandy the last 10 years in terms of recruiting, then I don't want to shatter your daydream. I'll let you keep living your dream. I'm certainly not going to disparage ex-players to prove a point.

However, for the people who are tuned into reality, it's no secret why Stansbury wanted a coach that is known as a strong recruiter and someone who is strong with changing the narrative. You can reference the many articles from writers whose job it is to be objective about where our recruiting was during the CPJ tenure. There's many of those written from the time Collins was hired to now so feel free to search for them...it won't be hard. There isn't some vast conspiracy to make CPJ look bad, or disparage GT. There's no reason to get defensive about it. Not sure why some are taking these things personally. GT identified areas we needed to improve upon...and recruiting isn't the only thing. Some of it is systemic to GT, and others were unique to the previous staff (and when CGC's time is up here, the same type of things will be written about him).

Nothing wrong with acknowledging shortcomings and working to improve them.

 

[Northeast Stinger]

If it's your opinion that everything was just fine and dandy the last 10 years in terms of recruiting, then I don't want to shatter your daydream. I'll let you keep living your dream. I'm certainly not going to disparage ex-players to prove a point.

However, for the people who are tuned into reality, it's no secret why Stansbury wanted a coach that is known as a strong recruiter and someone who is strong with changing the narrative. You can reference the many articles from writers whose job it is to be objective about where our recruiting was during the CPJ tenure. There's many of those written from the time Collins was hired to now so feel free to search for them...it won't be hard. There isn't some vast conspiracy to make CPJ look bad, or disparage GT. There's no reason to get defensive about it. Not sure why some are taking these things personally. GT identified areas we needed to improve upon...and recruiting isn't the only thing. Some of it is systemic to GT, and others were unique to the previous staff (and when CGC's time is up here, the same type of things will be written about him).

Nothing wrong with acknowledging shortcomings and working to improve them.

More money and more staff for recruiting is the X factor. Everything else is tinkering around the edges.

 

[stinger 1957]

Our facilities are now light years ahead of where they were when GOL left, yes still need some upgrade in a few places, but now we can probably get that done. I have to believe that was a factor in our present staff being here. TS was a factor, he gets it as we all know. Very important to a coach that wants to come and build something rather than use as a stepping stone. CGC has just about convinced me he truly wants to do it all right here. Hope it all plays out that way.

 

[UgaBlows]

Pretty much all teams have critical loss of personnel for various reasons. In the words of the man himself it it what it is. We had a couple really reallygood seasons, a couple really terrible and a whole bunch of mediocre seasons. It’s over with now and i seriously doubt that the option will ever come back to GT.

 

[Coloradojacket]

Wow, here we go again. For the post that we did not do well under CPJ, um best coaching record at Tech since Dodd. But here is another little ditty to look at and why I am not sure it really matters what scheme we run. So we are all excited that we are 12th in recruiting right now. Well don't get too excited. We have 13 commits, that is why we are 12th. forget the calendar and just look by the numbers. At 13 we have one 4 star, 11 three stars and one 2 star. Last year when we hit 13 recruits we had one 4 star and 12 three stars. So in fact we had a better class at this point.

All the conjecture will vanish on that Thursday in August.

 

[Northeast Stinger]

Wow, here we go again. For the post that we did not do well under CPJ, um best coaching record at Tech since Dodd. But here is another little ditty to look at and why I am not sure it really matters what scheme we run. So we are all excited that we are 12th in recruiting right now. Well don't get too excited. We have 13 commits, that is why we are 12th. forget the calendar and just look by the numbers. At 13 we have one 4 star, 11 three stars and one 2 star. Last year when we hit 13 recruits we had one 4 star and 12 three stars. So in fact we had a better class at this point.

All the conjecture will vanish on that Thursday in August.

But, but.... they tell us not all 4 stars are alike and it matters whether a 3 star is a low 3 star or a middling 3 star.

 

[GT14]

But, but.... they tell us not all 4 stars are alike and it matters whether a 3 star is a low 3 star or a middling 3 star.

I mean, they're not all alike and it does matter whether you're one of the better 1,300 kids ranked as a 3* vs one of the worst. Have you seen the offer sheets our three stars have? Compare that to the last decade of offer sheets. And yes, I know that we snagged a good number of athletes with impressive offer lists in the past (Bruce Jordan Swilling has the most impressive list I've ever seen from a GT commit), but on aggregate, the guys who are committing to Collins are more impressive than the guys who committed to Johnson. And it should be expected for that to improve as relationships are built. Remember that he's only been on campus for about 6 months.

It's weird that a good number of our own fans are so resistant to positive changes.

 

[knoxjacket]

Wow, here we go again. For the post that we did not do well under CPJ, um best coaching record at Tech since Dodd. But here is another little ditty to look at and why I am not sure it really matters what scheme we run. So we are all excited that we are 12th in recruiting right now. Well don't get too excited. We have 13 commits, that is why we are 12th. forget the calendar and just look by the numbers. At 13 we have one 4 star, 11 three stars and one 2 star. Last year when we hit 13 recruits we had one 4 star and 12 three stars. So in fact we had a better class at this point.

All the conjecture will vanish on that Thursday in August.

Stopped reading after your second sentence because it’s flat out untrue.

George O’Leary - 61%
Chan Gailey - 58%
Paul Johnson - 57%

 

[knoxjacket]

I mean, they're not all alike and it does matter whether you're one of the better 1,300 kids ranked as a 3* vs one of the worst. Have you seen the offer sheets our three stars have? Compare that to the last decade of offer sheets. And yes, I know that we snagged a good number of athletes with impressive offer lists in the past (Bruce Jordan Swilling has the most impressive list I've ever seen from a GT commit), but on aggregate, the guys who are committing to Collins are more impressive than the guys who committed to Johnson. And it should be expected for that to improve as relationships are built. Remember that he's only been on campus for about 6 months.

It's weird that a good number of our own fans are so resistant to positive changes.

It’s not weird. They’ve built up an entire worldview about how Tech can’t recruit/compete and Collins has come in and said it can and they can’t handle it.

 

[Techster]

Stopped reading after your second sentence because it’s flat out untrue.

George O’Leary - 61%
Chan Gailey - 58%
Paul Johnson - 57%

In @Coloradojacket 's defense, the highs were higher under CPJ (1 ACC Championship, 3 ACCCGs, 2 OBs, wins vs UGA) than under Gailey. O'Leary wasn't here as long as CPJ, but he had some really good years with the best one co ACC Champs with FSU (along with his UGA wins).

The one thing about CPJ is he had 2 bad years, one of which was really bad and the bowl streak was broken under him (we had the 2nd longest streak at the time).

 

[dressedcheeseside]

Stopped reading after your second sentence because it’s flat out untrue.

George O’Leary - 61%
Chan Gailey - 58%
Paul Johnson - 57%

HUGE separations there, I must say. Also, there's other ways to guage success other than wining %. I'll take a percentage point or two less, any day, for an ACC championship, COFH wins and OB games/wins.

 

[takethepoints]

If it's your opinion that everything was just fine and dandy the last 10 years in terms of recruiting, then I don't want to shatter your daydream. I'll let you keep living your dream. I'm certainly not going to disparage ex-players to prove a point.

However, for the people who are tuned into reality, it's no secret why Stansbury wanted a coach that is known as a strong recruiter and someone who is strong with changing the narrative. You can reference the many articles from writers whose job it is to be objective about where our recruiting was during the CPJ tenure. There's many of those written from the time Collins was hired to now so feel free to search for them...it won't be hard. There isn't some vast conspiracy to make CPJ look bad, or disparage GT. There's no reason to get defensive about it. Not sure why some are taking these things personally. GT identified areas we needed to improve upon...and recruiting isn't the only thing. Some of it is systemic to GT, and others were unique to the previous staff (and when CGC's time is up here, the same type of things will be written about him).

Nothing wrong with acknowledging shortcomings and working to improve them.

As usual, we are talking past one another. Your post was about QBs and how we didn't recruit dual threat types under Paul as well as expected because Paul was hired too late or something like that. That's simply not true and I pointed that out. Now, if you had said the entire recruiting program under Paul, I would still have disagreed, though nowhere near as strongly. We had some areas - same ones as today, apparently - where we didn't recruit well. Here in particular I would point to the DL. We came close (Truitt, Holiday) to turning even that around, but didn't. So … no, I wouldn't have said that our recruiting was just fine for the last 11 years; there are always going to be problems (you didn't hear it here first, but wait for a year or so then come back to this post) getting Clemson-type quality depth at Tech. Final word on this from me: if Dedrick hadn't been fired over a badly out-dated administrative policy, Tech would be coming off two straight seasons with at least 8/9 wins and this board would be moaning and groaning about Dedrick leaving for the pros after his junior year. Yes. He was that important. Oh, and Paul would still be coach.

Now, as to Stansbury. He wasn't all that thrilled when Paul resigned - you can look at pretty much the same pundits a week earlier. He did what he had to, however, and Coach was a solid hire. And, of course, he's done everything in the AD's power to back the narrative that Coach wants. He has to: if we don't recruit a lot better - another way of saying putting more money into the program - then we will have a real problem on our hands. And I suspect that recruiting will improve; at least, we'll have better "recruiting rankings".

And don't make out that I'm all offended about posts that disparage Paul. The worse of these are not worth much in the way of a reply. Yours generally are. You simply misread my post into some kind of blanket defense of Paul. He was a really good coach for us, but he wasn't perfect. We'll see if Coach can do better Real Soon Now.