NY Times Story on Lack of Jameis Winston Investigation

jwsavhGT

Helluva Engineer
Retired Staff
Messages
4,395
Location
Savannah,GA
The sad truth about the situation and others like it is that these are not now-and-again events. When you have a mix of unsupervised teenagers, alcohol/drugs, stress of college life bad things can & will happen. Unfortunately what goes on with college students today is no different than what went on 30 years ago. As far as the young lady being a willing participant, unless you were in the room you don't know. It takes a lot of courage to come forward & suffer the humiliation she has endured. If she was just racking up FSU player points then why pursue it this far? The bottom line is that this is a hot-button topic & there will always be people who will pass judgment without knowing all the facts.
OK - I'm stepping down from my soapbox for the day.
 

Animal02

Helluva Engineer
Messages
6,054
Location
Southeastern Michigan
Its really not that complicated. The girl was absolutely determined to have sex with Winston and she did. According to more than one witness, she was on top of Winston while they were getting it on. As far as I know, if the girl is on top, she is not an unwilling participant.
That is just asinine.


Winston was the last F$U athlete in a long list of F$U athletes that she boinked.

Doesn't matter if she was paid by the rest of them.......no ability to give consent=rape.
 

Animal02

Helluva Engineer
Messages
6,054
Location
Southeastern Michigan

00Burdell

Helluva Engineer
Messages
1,160
Location
Parts Unknown
exactly, the bar security camera might have shown he staggering out of the bar or being held up by a male. The cabbie might have testified the girl was passed out in the back seat of the cab.

What witnesses, his friends and teammates? His roommates - whatever that's worth.

Lol, you can't even admit the police screwed the pooch. I've never taken or stated a position about the investigation.

For all we know, you could very well be right. I'm not representing anything as factual - just relaying information conveyed to me from someone I know who is very close to the situation.

We'll never know. True.

The available information about this case simply does not have the expected characteristics one expects to see in a case of date rape. I understand that doesn't rule out date rape. I spent a lot of time looking into this when it originally went public - I read all the police reports and spoke to someone who is well acquainted with parties on both sides. There were statements taken from the girl's friends that directly contradicted her version of the events. I could go on. In short, there was a complete dearth of evidence supporting the girl's story and her storied and she herself had created a profile of a girl who had 'spent time' with quite a few of F$U's team- it was clear to everyone involved that Winston was just another notch in her lipstick case. In short, she had very little credibility and the police apparently sniffed that out very early on. Should they (the police) have crossed every t and dotted every i in conducting a complete investigation? Yes, they should have - they should have seen this coming. But in retrospect, the case appears to be that of a girl who got what she had been giving (screwed and dumped) and she didn't take it very well.

And the absence of all the evidence you are wishing we had accrues to a presumption of innocence for Winston and not a presumption of guilt to a high-profile and soon to be very wealthy athlete that a lot of people are expecting to cash in on.
 

AE 87

Helluva Engineer
Messages
12,980
The reporter mentioned the cell phone video and who made it but not what they said it showed. People should not read this article as honest jounalism. It is a prosecutor's closing summation, reporting and framing the facts to make the southern police look bad (ahem Zimmerman reporting).

The article further makes clear that the accuser did express hesitancy about the extent of her participation but wanted the investigation to continue anyway. I don't disagree that more evidence should have been collected, but I don't think people should Duke Lacrosse Jameis either.
 

dressedcheeseside

Helluva Engineer
Messages
13,675
The available information about this case simply does not have the expected characteristics one expects to see in a case of date rape. I understand that doesn't rule out date rape. I spent a lot of time looking into this when it originally went public - I read all the police reports and spoke to someone who is well acquainted with parties on both sides. There were statements taken from the girl's friends that directly contradicted her version of the events. I could go on. In short, there was a complete dearth of evidence supporting the girl's story and her storied and she herself had created a profile of a girl who had 'spent time' with quite a few of F$U's team- it was clear to everyone involved that Winston was just another notch in her lipstick case. In short, she had very little credibility and the police apparently sniffed that out very early on. Should they (the police) have crossed every t and dotted every i in conducting a complete investigation? Yes, they should have - they should have seen this coming. But in retrospect, the case appears to be that of a girl who got what she had been giving (screwed and dumped) and she didn't take it very well.

And the absence of all the evidence you are wishing we had accrues to a presumption of innocence for Winston and not a presumption of guilt to a high-profile and soon to be very wealthy athlete that a lot of people are expecting to cash in on.
None of what you stated, even if true, proves JW did not rape the girl. The PD and FSU, both screwed the pooch investigating this rape case. That's what concerns and scares me. I hope nobody on this board has a little girl that ends up going to FSU. I live in Jacksonville and have a daughter in kindergarten and have already paid for her college with the Florida Prepay Program. Unfortunately, it requires she attend a Florida school. I guess I can cross one off the list.
 

dressedcheeseside

Helluva Engineer
Messages
13,675
For those who didn't read the article, here's how the TPD screwed up the investigation:

from another article that summerizes the NYT article:

  • The TPD suspended the investigation 66 days after the accuser filed her police report because, they said, she was being "uncooperative." The accuser denies being uncooperative.
  • Police were unable to identify Winston as the accused assailant, despite having what the NYT calls "three solid leads" toward obtaining his identity on the night the report was filed — 1) the name of another football player the accuser met at the bar, 2) security cameras at the bar, and 3) the student ID that was swiped in the taxi leaving the bar.
  • William Miggs, the state prosecutor, told the NYT, "Anybody that looked at this case would say you get a report at 2 in the morning, by noon you could have had the defendant identified and talked to."
  • After the accuser identified Winston 30 days later when she saw him on campus, police didn't interview him for two weeks.
  • When police called Winston to interview him, he said he had baseball practice. State prosecutors say he should have been contacted in person.
  • The TFD did not take a DNA sample from Winston until a year later.
  • One of Winston's friends, football player Chris Casher, admitted to taking a video of the sexual encounter, but he wasn't interviewed by police until nearly a year later, by which time he had deleted it.


Read more: http://www.businessinsider.com/jameis-winston-rape-investigation-2014-4#ixzz2zA47oM19
 

Whiskey_Clear

Banned
Messages
10,487
Man I'm a bit tired after reading that rambling article. Have to say I don't find it to be an objective piece of journalism....it's clearly a hatchet job. If the facts of the piece are correct then it was without doubt a shoddy investigation conducted by the p0lice, mostly just lazy police work. Having said that, I sincerely doubt this was a legitimate rape. Regardless, that department needs to get its house in order. Pretty damning that a grand jury has basically advised that the department needs to be dissolved.
 

AE 87

Helluva Engineer
Messages
12,980
That's because it was deleted before it could be seized. Bad police work.

You should get a yellow journalism job with the times. My post made the exact same point that they should have collected that video. My point was that the article presented only one side of the story, some claims of fact without mentioning they are disputed, and only one interpretation of the agreed facts.

My only point was that you can't trust the reporting in that article. I don't have an opinion about the case itself.

Since you made it personal, if you had a son, would you want him to go through what the Duke Lacrosse team endured?
 

GTRanj

Jolly Good Fellow
Messages
333
Location
Atlanta, Georgia
That's because it was deleted before it could be seized. Bad police work.
How do you even know that the police could have realistically gotten the team mate to first admit he recorded part of it through a crack in the door (weirdo) and second get him to consent to handing over his phone before deleting the video? It seems that you are assuming that when there is a police investigation, every bit of evidence gets collected. This, unfortunately, is often times not the case. Going back to the victim's reputation of sleeping with football players, her friend's differing accounts of the night at the bar, I can see where the office may have his doubts. Again I agree, as previously stated, the main issue is that all the i's be dotted and t's crossed. To come to a conclusion one way or another based on a journalists report is ridiculous to me. I myself am still on the fence about what actually happened, but what loses allot of credibility in this article for me is that allot of other aspects such as the victim's friend's differing accounts of the night being left out, the victim's alleged history of sleeping with football players and so on was not addressed (or as the journalist likes to say "investigated") let alone mentioned.
 

dressedcheeseside

Helluva Engineer
Messages
13,675
You should get a yellow journalism job with the times. My post made the exact same point that they should have collected that video. My point was that the article presented only one side of the story, some claims of fact without mentioning they are disputed, and only one interpretation of the agreed facts.

My only point was that you can't trust the reporting in that article. I don't have an opinion about the case itself.

Since you made it personal, if you had a son, would you want him to go through what the Duke Lacrosse team endured?
Sorry if I misread your post. My beef is not about guilt or innocence, but with the TPD and FSU's administrative attitude/priorities.

Yes, I'm assuming the facts presented in the article are accurate,why not? They are presented as facts, not opinions or commentary. Why would a reputable media outlet risk a major lawsuit by presenting easily refutable statements as facts when they are not? If they're not true, then, of course, I change my judgement on the TPD and FSU. However, the fact that a grand jury has basically called for the disbanding of the TPD it kind of backs up the facts presented in the article, don't you think?
 

dressedcheeseside

Helluva Engineer
Messages
13,675
To come to a conclusion one way or another based on a journalists report is ridiculous to me.
What are you talking about, what conclusion? The only conclusion I came to is the TPD is incompetent or doesn't care or is in cahoots with a coverup.

There is absolutely no excuse for the detective not getting the bar's surveillance video or tracking down the cab driver.
 
Last edited:

GTRanj

Jolly Good Fellow
Messages
333
Location
Atlanta, Georgia
What are you talking about, what conclusion? The only conclusion I came to is the TPD is incompetent or doesn't care or is in cahoots with a coverup.

There is absolutely no excuse for the detective not getting the bar's surveillance video or tracking down the cab driver.
And I agree with you. It just sounded like you had come to a conclusion, but I agree with you on the whole police investigation. My comments were more so directed at the many people who are going to read this biased article and conclude the JW got away with one...
 

jeffgt14

We Don't? Suck
Messages
5,508
Location
Mt Juliet, TN
None of what you stated, even if true, proves JW did not rape the girl. The PD and FSU, both screwed the pooch investigating this rape case. That's what concerns and scares me. I hope nobody on this board has a little girl that ends up going to FSU. I live in Jacksonville and have a daughter in kindergarten and have already paid for her college with the Florida Prepay Program. Unfortunately, it requires she attend a Florida school. I guess I can cross one off the list.
How did you manage to get the Florida Prepay Program when you live in South Georgia?
 

Whiskey_Clear

Banned
Messages
10,487
For those who didn't read the article, here's how the TPD screwed up the investigation:

from another article that summerizes the NYT article:
To counter
-The accuser denying she was uncooperative does not mean she was not indeed uncooperative. Recorded interview with her would pretty quickly answer this question.
-Three solid leads......these leads very well may have provided the ID of these subjects but thats not a definite. (should have been investigated more thoroughly regardless)
-This point was basically same as above..might have identified the subjects but not definite. Accuser only knew first name of one of the three subjects and I'm guessing there are a lot of black males in the Tallahassee area using the name Chris. The card swiped for discount was the best lead by far....could have been from a lost or stolen card but a decent lead regardless. Assuming the card swipes actually do link to card owner names that is....I have no personal knowledge of that particular system. The incident did not occur at the bar but may have shed better light on the accusers conduct. Video would not have been able to prove or dissprove the alleged incident however because that occurred at a residence not the bar. (would have given screen shots to help identify the parties but the value there is in the quality of the video which is unknown to me).
-Police waited additional 2 weeks to interview suspect after being identified 30 days after the incident. Hard to argue this was not very timely but I'm not sure you can say evidence or information was lost at this point.
-Contacted Winston by phone rather than face to face etc. This supposedly allowed the suspect to avoid an interview with the police....he basically stonewalled him. He could very easily have done the same in a face to face encounter. His lack of cooperation here should actually have been harmful to him in exonerating him. He avoids saying things that might implicate him in wrongdoing but also surrenders any ability to exonerate himself and actually makes it easier to make a charge on him.

Article continuously harps that Winston's DNA was not taken immediately.....that is laughable. That can be obtained at any time unless he disappears from the face of the planet. Again, I'm not saying the investigation was handled properly but I am pretty doubtful this was truly a sexual assault.
 

dressedcheeseside

Helluva Engineer
Messages
13,675
And I agree with you. It just sounded like you had come to a conclusion, but I agree with you on the whole police investigation. My comments were more so directed at the many people who are going to read this biased article and conclude the JW got away with one...
Why exactly is the article biased? Is it just because it's the NYT?
 

GTRanj

Jolly Good Fellow
Messages
333
Location
Atlanta, Georgia
Sorry if I misread your post. My beef is not about guilt or innocence, but with the TPD and FSU's administrative attitude/priorities.

Yes, I'm assuming the facts presented in the article are accurate,why not? They are presented as facts, not opinions or commentary. Why would a reputable media outlet risk a major lawsuit by presenting easily refutable statements as facts when they are not? If they're not true, then, of course, I change my judgement on the TPD and FSU. However, the fact that a grand jury has basically called for the disbanding of the TPD it kind of backs up the facts presented in the article, don't you think?
These is such a thing that journalists quite often do, it's called spinning the truth. Something to look out for.
 

GTRanj

Jolly Good Fellow
Messages
333
Location
Atlanta, Georgia
To counter
-The accuser denying she was uncooperative does not mean she was not indeed uncooperative. Recorded interview with her would pretty quickly answer this question.
-Three solid leads......these leads very well may have provided the ID of these subjects but thats not a definite. (should have been investigated more thoroughly regardless)
-This point was basically same as above..might have identified the subjects but not definite. Accuser only knew first name of one of the three subjects and I'm guessing there are a lot of black males in the Tallahassee area using the name Chris. The card swiped for discount was the best lead by far....could have been from a lost or stolen card but a decent lead regardless. Assuming the card swipes actually do link to card owner names that is....I have no personal knowledge of that particular system. The incident did not occur at the bar but may have shed better light on the accusers conduct. Video would not have been able to prove or dissprove the alleged incident however because that occurred at a residence not the bar. (would have given screen shots to help identify the parties but the value there is in the quality of the video which is unknown to me).
-Police waited additional 2 weeks to interview suspect after being identified 30 days after the incident. Hard to argue this was not very timely but I'm not sure you can say evidence or information was lost at this point.
-Contacted Winston by phone rather than face to face etc. This supposedly allowed the suspect to avoid an interview with the police....he basically stonewalled him. He could very easily have done the same in a face to face encounter. His lack of cooperation here should actually have been harmful to him in exonerating him. He avoids saying things that might implicate him in wrongdoing but also surrenders any ability to exonerate himself and actually makes it easier to make a charge on him.

Article continuously harps that Winston's DNA was not taken immediately.....that is laughable. That can be obtained at any time unless he disappears from the face of the planet. Again, I'm not saying the investigation was handled properly but I am pretty doubtful this was truly a sexual assault.
Perfectly stated.
 
Top