Notre Dame - 1/13

[orientalnc]

I actually liked our game plan last night: pound the ball inside where we actually have a bit of advantage and force the ND guards to dig the post, thereby creating open 3-point shots for Q and Smith. That broke down when White left after two minutes with his 2nd foul and Mitchell could not hit anything. About half way through the first half he had 10 rebounds and was 1-5 shooting. When we did get the ball to an open outside shooter, nothing was falling. Q, Smith, and MGH all missed open shots multiple times. That is not bad coaching!

And calls were going both ways. I thought the refs missed a few, but none were affecting the outcome. The foul on MGH when Jackson "traveled" was a reasonable call.

 

[AE 87]

His voice is so dead by then end of a game no one on the team can hear him and he sounds like a kid yelling at the refs. That last foul he was arguing if the shot was attempted before the shot clock ran out but the announcers and refs just shrugged him off. I replayed it and I think it was called right but he needs a little more of a command voice. Not sure that's something he can fix

The issue, imo, was whether the ball hit the rim to reset the shot-clock before that last shot. I think it did.

 

[Connell62]

I actually liked our game plan last night: pound the ball inside where we actually have a bit of advantage and force the ND guards to dig the post, thereby creating open 3-point shots for Q and Smith. That broke down when White left after two minutes with his 2nd foul and Mitchell could not hit anything. About half way through the first half he had 10 rebounds and was 1-5 shooting. When we did get the ball to an open outside shooter, nothing was falling. Q, Smith, and MGH all missed open shots multiple times. That is not bad coaching!

And calls were going both ways. I thought the refs missed a few, but none were affecting the outcome. The foul on MGH when Jackson "traveled" was a reasonable call.

Agreed on the missed opportunities.. I don't understand why every loss ends up an indictment on Gregory. Some times the shots just don't fall or we don't get the calls.

I've seen it all, now people are busting his balls because he doesn't yell loudly enough at the refs??? Damn.. Give the man a break!!

I don't disagree with the notion that this one was here for the taking, but our offense had been playing a high clip.. they were due for a poor shooting game.

 

[Peacone36]

I missed the 2nd half becomes I fell asleep during the halftime show. I cannot speak to the second half or end game scenarios

First half I thought we were doing the right things. Go hard to the hoop. Make a team that isn't deep foul you. And it was working. The dude with the ridiculous haircut had 3 fouls first half. But outside of Big Ben our help side defense was soft on multiple occasions. On that note, Lammers should start with Chuck, MGH, Tadric and Adam. We had some really weird lineups in game last night, especially when Adam isn't hitting.

This game went about as expected for me in terms of the end result. Go out and beat a top 5 team and then get a conference game, against a tourney team, on the road a few days later? The Gregory Effect will kick in and break your heart on that one every time

 

[Connell62]

I missed the 2nd half becomes I fell asleep during the halftime show. I cannot speak to the second half or end game scenarios

First half I thought we were doing the right things. Go hard to the hoop. Make a team that isn't deep foul you. And it was working. The dude with the ridiculous haircut had 3 fouls first half. But outside of Big Ben our help side defense was soft on multiple occasions. On that note, Lammers should start with Chuck, MGH, Tadric and Adam. We had some really weird lineups in game last night, especially when Adam isn't hitting.

This game went about as expected for me in terms of the end result. Go out and beat a top 5 team and then get a conference game, against a tourney team, on the road a few days later? The Gregory Effect will kick in and break your heart on that one every time

Nice shout out to the Pflueger. That hair cut was an atrocity! LOL.. Been saying for a while now, where is the offense going to come from when Adam isn't hitting.

Personally thought that Tadric should have seen a few more minutes in favor of Q last night. You can usually tell pretty quickly whether Q is on or off.

Last night, he was missing badly from the get-go.

 

[Peacone36]

Agreed on the missed opportunities.. I don't understand why every loss ends up an indictment on Gregory. Some times the shots just don't fall or we don't get the calls.

I've seen it all, now people are busting his balls because he doesn't yell loudly enough at the refs??? Damn.. Give the man a break!!

I don't disagree with the notion that this one was here for the taking, but our offense had been playing a high clip.. they were due for a poor shooting game.

I agree. Yelling at the refs thing is ridiculous. But, fact remains, once again we are 1-3 to start ACC play. Schedule, I know. But at some point you are what your record says you are. I know Pitt is 14-1 (3-0) but are they supremely talented when compared to us and our roster this year? Absolutely not. It's the coaching.

 

[CuseJacket]

Did we miss open shots? Yes.

Did the refs cost us the game? No.

Does our team take more bad shots than a tournament team? Yes, bigs especially.

Do the players on our team know and play according to their strengths and weaknesses? Not well enough.

The latter two is all coaching. Add to it a regression in rotations last night - what are Heath and Q doing on the floor to close out the game, let alone getting those minutes - and you can chalk this one up to BG.

I agree to a certain level about BG getting run over by refs near the end. His personality and perceived ineffectiveness there is nothing new. We got the the benefit of most calls in the first half, imo, and we were still losing. Bad calls happen in basketball and average out over time. Play soft on O and you generally won't win the FT battle.

 

[Connell62]

I agree. Yelling at the refs thing is ridiculous. But, fact remains, once again we are 1-3 to start ACC play. Schedule, I know. But at some point you are what your record says you are. I know Pitt is 14-1 (3-0) but are they supremely talented when compared to us and our roster this year? Absolutely not. It's the coaching.

Definitely a few things that we could have / should have done differently, but I'm not prepared to put it all on coaching. Had we played with the same effort that we did at UNC or Pitt last night, we likely walk out victorious. Also, playing on the road is tough, and Notre Dame is no slouch. Again, I definitely agree that this is one we were capable of winning (as was Pitt), but still a lot of basketball to be played.

At the end of the day, BG is what he is, he not Roy Williams or Mike Brey, but I still have hope for this season.

 

[Connell62]

Did we miss open shots? Yes.

Did the refs cost us the game? No.

Does our team take more bad shots than a tournament team? Yes, bigs especially.

Do the players on our team know and play according to their strengths and weaknesses? Not well enough.

The latter two is all coaching. Add to it a regression in rotations last night - what are Heath and Q doing on the floor to close out the game, let alone getting those minutes - and you can chalk this one up to BG.

I agree to a certain level about BG getting run over by refs near the end. His personality and perceived ineffectiveness there is nothing new. We got the the benefit of most calls in the first half, imo, and we were still losing. Bad calls happen in basketball and average out over time. Play soft on O and you generally won't win the FT battle.

Do agree with you about Q. I really thought Tadric should have seen a few more minutes in favor of Q, but I don't have a big problem with Heath being on the court end game last night. It's not like Q (or even Tadric) were adding a whole lot offensively, and I think that the hope was that Josh would be able to better facilitate the offense. He did score on a nice drive down the stretch and he made a nice play getting into the paint and kicking it out Adam for a rythmn 3.

Trust me Cuse, I have been pushing the playing time card for Heath and Jorgensen more than anyone, but last night, I just don't see it being to our detriment.

Regarding being ran over the by the refs.. Keep in mind that it was a one possession game (61-58) with 3:00. Yes, there were some terrible calls against us, but had he blown his top and gotten a technical, he would have flushed any chance of a W down the toilet. Imagine the backlash he would have received here had that happened.

 

[CuseJacket]

Definitely a few things that we could have / should have done differently, but I'm not prepared to put it all on coaching. Had we played with the same effort that we did at UNC or Pitt last night, we likely walk out victorious. Also, playing on the road is tough, and Notre Dame is no slouch. Again, I definitely agree that this is one we were capable of winning (as was Pitt), but still a lot of basketball to be played.

At the end of the day, BG is what he is, he not Roy Williams or Mike Brey, but I still have hope for this season.

"Not on coaching" and "lack of effort" could be argued as mutually exclusive. Effort is cultural and coaches are the main influencers of culture.

Agree it's not all on coaching since we don't have the horses to just show up, but better coaching would have gotten the job done last night imo. We would create 5 more possessions a game by simply telling our bigs what is and isn't a good shot.

 

[Peacone36]

Definitely a few things that we could have / should have done differently, but I'm not prepared to put it all on coaching. Had we played with the same effort that we did at UNC or Pitt last night, we likely walk out victorious. Also, playing on the road is tough, and Notre Dame is no slouch. Again, I definitely agree that this is one we were capable of winning (as was Pitt), but still a lot of basketball to be played.

At the end of the day, BG is what he is, he not Roy Williams or Mike Brey, but I still have hope for this season.

Agreed. This team could/should be a high seed in the NIT IMHO

 

[Peacone36]

I think that the hope was that Josh would be able to better facilitate the offense.

Im going to toe my own line here about student athletes but, why would we think that? He hasn't run it effectively in ACC play before. He has proven me wrong about he and Jorgy but MGH is far more effective or at least as effective as Josh and replacing Heath with MGH at the 1 allows us to put Tadric in who is a superior defender.

Like I said I can't speak to this a whole lot because I didn't have my own eyes on it but it sounds as if late in the game BG returned to the median.

 

[CuseJacket]

Do agree with you about Q. I really thought Tadric should have seen a few more minutes in favor of Q, but I don't have a big problem with Heath being on the court end game last night. It's not like Q (or even Tadric) were adding a whole lot offensively, and I think that the hope was that Josh would be able to better facilitate the offense. He did score on a nice drive down the stretch and he made a nice play getting into the paint and kicking it out Adam for a rythmn 3.

Trust me Cuse, I have been pushing the playing time card for Heath and Jorgensen more than anyone, but last night, I just don't see it being to our detriment.

I know we're largely on the same page so don't take this as combative. Just because Heath and Jorg didn't do anything terrible doesn't mean they should get minutes. There is an opportunity cost i.e., someone more effective could play, like Tadric.

What purpose did Jorg's 4 first half minutes serve? He did nothing terrible, and I don't know that anyone was expecting something more. To me things like that disrupt the rhythm of players who should be in the game. And if our top 7 guys are gassed at the end of a game like last night then we have other issues to correct.

Also, Lammers was arguably our best player last night. He got 18 minutes...

 

[RedPete]

Does this team have a shot at a decent season and possibly an NCAA bid? At this point it's still hard to say, but these next four games in January will be very telling. Go 2-2 before the Duke game and they have a shot as the schedule gets easier. 1-3 and we can chalk-up another season in the ACC cellar.

 

[Connell62]

I know we're largely on the same page so don't take this as combative. Just because Heath and Jorg didn't do anything terrible doesn't mean they should get minutes. There is an opportunity cost i.e., someone more effective could play, like Tadric.

What purpose did Jorg's 4 first half minutes serve? He did nothing terrible, and I don't know that anyone was expecting something more. To me things like that disrupt the rhythm of players who should be in the game. And if our top 7 guys are gassed at the end of a game like last night then we have other issues to correct.

Also, Lammers was arguably our best player last night. He got 18 minutes...

Gotta get my day started, but just a few responses:

Re: Jorgy & Heath - My thought here is that BG was searching for a spark of some sort. No one was in a rythmn and BG was trying to get us to push pace to wake us up a bit. Most here aren't on the HIVE insider board, but believe me when I say that I have been beating the drum about going to MGH at point more than anyone.

I understand all of the benefits that it brings, and I hope we stay with it, but Q/Tadric has to play well for it to be effective. If they both off and Adam has an off-night by his standards, then you have try something else. Also, its not like Travis and Heath have been terrible this season from a facilitating perspective. They have gotten others involved. Sounds like it is just me, but I thought Josh did some good things down the stretch, and outside of the turn-over when we had cut it to 3, he didn't really do anything that beat us. Again, I am okay with it last night primarily because neither Q or Tadric had shown themselves as being ready last night.

RE: Lammers - BG has a tough job in determining minutes for our bigs. I agree wholeheartedly that Ben Lammers played great in the first half, but Nick really had it going offensively in the second half. Toward the end, BG was playing offense for defense with Ben and Nick. I won't argue that he deserved a few more minutes, but is that really a coaching lapse? I mean Nick scored 10 straight points for us at one stretch of the second half.

 

[Connell62]

"Not on coaching" and "lack of effort" could be argued as mutually exclusive. Effort is cultural and coaches are the main influencers of culture.

Agree it's not all on coaching since we don't have the horses to just show up, but better coaching would have gotten the job done last night imo. We would create 5 more possessions a game by simply telling our bigs what is and isn't a good shot.

BTW.. definitely agree with you about being on the same page.. Nothing combative, just good discussion.. We have played four ACC games now, three of which have been on the road. Safe to say that our effort was good in those games. Don't think that it is cultural as much as it is these guys have been through a grind recently. Not trying to make excuses, but it is tough to come off an emotional high (beating #4 UVA) and then play the defending ACC champ and likely tourney team, on their home court, just three days later.

 

[CuseJacket]

Gotta get my day started, but just a few responses:

Re: Jorgy & Heath - My thought here is that BG was searching for a spark of some sort. No one was in a rythmn and BG was trying to get us to push pace to wake us up a bit. Most here aren't on the HIVE insider board, but believe me when I say that I have been beating the drum about going to MGH at point more than anyone.

I understand all of the benefits that it brings, and I hope we stay with it, but Q/Tadric has to play well for it to be effective. Also, Travis and Heath haven't been terrible this season. Sounds like it is just me, but I thought Josh did some good things down the stretch, and outside of the turn-over when we had cut it to 3, he didn't really do anything that beat us. Again, I am okay with it last night primarily because neither Q or Tadric had shown themselves as being ready last night.

RE: Lammers - BG has a tough job in determining minutes for our bigs. I agree wholeheartedly that Ben Lammers played great in the first half, but Nick really had it going offensively in the second half. Toward the end, BG was playing offense for defense with Ben and Nick. I won't argue that he deserved a few more minutes, but is that really a coaching lapse? I mean Nick scored 10 straight points for us at one stretch of the second half.

I disagree about Tadric... I think he deserved minutes last night. At minimum he struck me as most qualified to stick with Jackson on defense in his limited opportunities to spare MGH the hassle. He also needs to better understand his strengths/weaknesses offensively... I don't know why for him and others it's not made as clear as "you do not take this type of shot; you should take this type of shot". Sometimes it needs to be simplified. Just like our bigs need to stop taking 18-ft jump shots.

Nick played mostly terrible outside of that one stretch, offensively and defensively. Defensively he has a ton of room to grow. To be honest I probably wouldn't have made my 2nd half gameplan around him, so it shows what I know.

Regardless, Lammers minutes could come from Chuck on a regular basis even if Jacobs/White are hot. Chuck got a lot of rebounds last night, but so did Lammers. Chuck needs to improve in general on both ends of the court, including shot selection.

I don't know how much I actually believe this but I'll throw it out there anyway... I wonder if White could play the 3, knowing we won't get any O out of him there. But it's not like we're getting much from the PGs right now in any set. White has the length and athleticm to play the wing in a 2-3 or 1-3-1 look. I know that's way outside BG's comfort zone, but it's one way of getting our strengths in the game. Not saying it'd be a regular rotation, but if we're looking for 4 minute stints...

BTW.. definitely agree with you about being on the same page.. Nothing combative, just good discussion.. We have played four ACC games now, three of which have been on the road. Safe to say that our effort was good in those games. Don't think that it is cultural as much as it is these guys have been through a grind recently. Not trying to make excuses, but it is tough to come off an emotional high (beating #4 UVA) and then playing a good team on their home court three days later.

We've shown a lack of effort and focus in games prior to ACC play. I don't think it's the meat grinder that's getting to us, though I can see how it may be true this one time.

 

[BleedingGold]

Does this team have a shot at a decent season and possibly an NCAA bid? At this point it's still hard to say, but these next four games in January will be very telling. Go 2-2 before the Duke game and they have a shot as the schedule gets easier. 1-3 and we can chalk-up another season in the ACC cellar.

Can we beat any team on our schedule? Sure, but as last night shows, we can't put consistently good performances together on an every game basis. I hope I'm wrong but this seems like it's going to be like 12-13 all over again where we lose our first couple ACC games and then win every other game for the rest of the season. At some point, you have to string 3 or 4 in a row together. I honestly see us at 17-14 to 19-12 which would be good for 7-11 to 9-9 in ACC play. I think we'll be somewhere on the bubble and it'll come down to how we fare in the tournament.

 

[AE 87]

I agree. Yelling at the refs thing is ridiculous. But, fact remains, once again we are 1-3 to start ACC play. Schedule, I know. But at some point you are what your record says you are. I know Pitt is 14-1 (3-0) but are they supremely talented when compared to us and our roster this year? Absolutely not. It's the coaching.

Yeah, you never see one of the most successful college basketball coaches over the last several decades, rat face, yelling at the refs about calls ... oh wait, smh

Of course, I guess you can argue that rat face does this for no good reason or that it's ridiculous or whatever.

However, I think that the best explanation is that he's competitive and passionate and that this competitive passion shows up in his court-side demeanor.

Not only does it communicate to the team that the coach is in the game but it also communicates that he's on their side when they feel that the tide has turned against them and that he hasn't given up and neither should they.

Now, I don't think that that we lost because of the refs. I think we lost because we didn't play very well. I don't think we shot more poor shots (outside the flow of the offense) than we have in past games but we didn't make as many. We've had a tendency of letting teams get easy, uncontested lay-ups or dunks, but ND was able to exploit the same play almost all game for easy dunks. Nevertheless, ND didn't shoot well overall but we shot worse.

Some of the disparity between how fouls were called during the last 5 minutes had an obvious effect on our players, imo, with shoulders and energy dropping etc. It's not enough for the coach to calmly complain, like cbg did. He's got to get fired up. I think our team's energy reflected his.

just my opinion

 

[CuseJacket]

I'm trying to think of top-end coaches who have the same demeanor with refs as BG. My initial list was the opposite - K, Roy Williams, Bill Self, Calipari, Pitino, Boeheim. Maybe Izzo. Some of the next level teams/newer coaches are on the opposite end - Bennett, Jay Wright, Larranaga.

Despite the differences in demeanor with the refs, the thing that I think most hold in common is they ride the crap out of their players during games when they don't meet expectations, maybe minus the deliriously charismatic Larranaga. The bottom line is there's internal accountability and it's visible. I've rarely if ever seen this from BG.

The list of top coaches also strategically ramps up intensity when their teams need it like @AE 87 suggests, whether it's with the refs or their own team. BG has done this at times but not often enough, imo. Last night was one example out of several this season.