My way too early, possibly problematic look at potential GT Hoops roster management

dtm1997

Helluva Engineer
Featured Member
Messages
15,690
I'm an ice cream savant.
This is an incredibly wrong statement.

Regarding having a traditional center, as described, what I've noticed is posts are dancing around the inherent problem with that.

It's not a question of it being a good strategy or not. It's a question of available supply. Supply is extremely limited, so good luck getting one, let alone depth.
 

AUFC

Helluva Engineer
Messages
2,788
Location
Atlanta
This is an incredibly wrong statement.

Regarding having a traditional center, as described, what I've noticed is posts are dancing around the inherent problem with that.

It's not a question of it being a good strategy or not. It's a question of available supply. Supply is extremely limited, so good luck getting one, let alone depth.
This nails it on the head - you don't need a good center in college basketball because you don't have to face that many good centers from opposing teams. There simply aren't enough humans on the planet with the freakish size/freakish athlete combo. Those that are get drafted 7th overall in the NBA draft ;)

Definitely a nice to have though. I miss Ben Lammers - he was a cheat code on both sides of the ball. Forgot that he averaged 3.4 blocks per game in 2016-17. Just silly.
 

Northeast Stinger

Helluva Engineer
Messages
10,706
This is an incredibly wrong statement.

Regarding having a traditional center, as described, what I've noticed is posts are dancing around the inherent problem with that.

It's not a question of it being a good strategy or not. It's a question of available supply. Supply is extremely limited, so good luck getting one, let alone depth.
You are really right on all counts, in my humble opinion. A true center is simply on my wish list, even if it’s situational and off the bench.
 

leatherneckjacket

Helluva Engineer
Messages
2,069
Location
Atlanta, GA
This is an incredibly wrong statement.

Regarding having a traditional center, as described, what I've noticed is posts are dancing around the inherent problem with that.

It's not a question of it being a good strategy or not. It's a question of available supply. Supply is extremely limited, so good luck getting one, let alone depth.
Exactly! There are not a lot of quality low post players. If you have one, then you have to build an offense scheme around that player as a traditional low post center is not going to mesh well with other offensive schemes. And good luck finding a decent backup willing to ride the bench in case the starter gets hurt or is in foul trouble. If your starting center does get hurt and your backup stinks, you are screwed. This past season was an anomaly with two teams with high quality centers who played well enough, were durable and avoided foul trouble. I doubt we see this again for some time.
 

57jacket

Helluva Engineer
Messages
1,425
This nails it on the head - you don't need a good center in college basketball because you don't have to face that many good centers from opposing teams. There simply aren't enough humans on the planet with the freakish size/freakish athlete combo. Those that are get drafted 7th overall in the NBA draft ;)

Definitely a nice to have though. I miss Ben Lammers - he was a cheat code on both sides of the ball. Forgot that he averaged 3.4 blocks per game in 2016-17. Just silly.
I'll take a tough 4 that can rebound and muscle opposing 5s. Do we have that? If so, I'm happy.
 

MtnWasp

Ramblin' Wreck
Messages
962
Seems to me that it is typical of power conference teams and also the good mid-major teams to have players big enough to defend the rim at the 5.

Being able to meet dribble penetration by smaller perimeter players with a shot blocker and the ability not to get muscled down low are important components of winning teams.

As last season progressed deep into the ACC slate, it was my observation that opposing coaches recognized that Ndongo's quickness was a problem for them and they countered on the offensive end by posting him up with size. As a defender, he was less effective in that situation.

But Ndongo is quick off the floor and he hustles so as he progresses, he should project to improve as a weak side defender in the post, and be able to erase dribble drives at the five. But I expect that teams will continue to try to post him up and muscle him down low when we are on defense. At least that is what I would try to do, make him work really hard on the defensive end.

Because on offense, I expect Ndongo to be a headache for opposing coaches either at the 4 or the 5. His knack for using his quickness in tight quarters is going to be difficult to match-up against.
 

Root4GT

Helluva Engineer
Messages
2,937
Seems to me that it is typical of power conference teams and also the good mid-major teams to have players big enough to defend the rim at the 5.

Being able to meet dribble penetration by smaller perimeter players with a shot blocker and the ability not to get muscled down low are important components of winning teams.

As last season progressed deep into the ACC slate, it was my observation that opposing coaches recognized that Ndongo's quickness was a problem for them and they countered on the offensive end by posting him up with size. As a defender, he was less effective in that situation.

But Ndongo is quick off the floor and he hustles so as he progresses, he should project to improve as a weak side defender in the post, and be able to erase dribble drives at the five. But I expect that teams will continue to try to post him up and muscle him down low when we are on defense. At least that is what I would try to do, make him work really hard on the defensive end.

Because on offense, I expect Ndongo to be a headache for opposing coaches either at the 4 or the 5. His knack for using his quickness in tight quarters is going to be difficult to match-up against.
Yea having options frankly at all positions are a real positive based on opponent matchups. Ndongo is a really difficult matchup for our opponents as you said his tight space quickness is exceptional. He is also a very good decision maker on the pick and roll. Having several good 3 point shooters will make the George/McCollum - Ndongo pick and roll game much better as the weak side defender risks giving up an easy three point shot to a competent shooter. With Terry, Reeves and O'Brien we should have several good proven options for the corner 3 point shot. If the weak side defender stays home either Ndongo or the PG can get to the rim or hit a floater/short jump shot.

Bacott and Burns were the two traditional low post players in the ACC that could muscle smaller defenders in the low post. Others like Post (BC) and Filipowski were good 3 point shooters so a traditional big guy would struggle with them. All 4 are now gone from the ACC.

This should be a very interesting year for GT BB. We should be better but by how much is very unknown. Lots of new players with only 3 who got lots of minutes last year under CDS' system.
 

Jack

Jolly Good Fellow
Messages
250
I'm an ice cream savant. That aside, I'll be sure to check in during the season every time I'm proven to be right.
A-2
 

Attachments

  • IMG_4910.jpeg
    IMG_4910.jpeg
    1.1 MB · Views: 10
  • IMG_4911.jpeg
    IMG_4911.jpeg
    1.2 MB · Views: 10

kg01

Get-Bak! Coach
Featured Member
Messages
15,067
Location
Atlanta
This is an incredibly wrong statement.

Debatable.
Regarding having a traditional center, as described, what I've noticed is posts are dancing around the inherent problem with that.

It's not a question of it being a good strategy or not. It's a question of available supply. Supply is extremely limited, so good luck getting one, let alone depth.

I figured the supply portion of the discussion was understood. If there was a slate of Mournings, Shaqs, Yao's .. heck even Kevin Duckworths out there, then I'd be worried about having one. But there's not, so I'm not.
 

MtnWasp

Ramblin' Wreck
Messages
962
It might be possible to clarify the "true" center debate by categorizing them by weight, I know this is somewhat arbitrary but work with me:

1. There are the guys 275+ pound guys that are really rare. These are the guys who are both tall and wide. The Centers in the other categories will make their weight by being tall or wide.

2. There are the ~250 pound guys who are still uncommon but their presence on the roster doesn't come down to outstanding luck or deep pockets. These are the guys who can at least compete and make it tough for the 275 pound rarities.

3. There are the 235 pound guys. Maybe the most common group in the college game. This group will be dominated by the 275 pound centers but they can compete with the 250 pound group. These guys are not so rare.

4. There are the 220 pound or less guys. These are the String beans and they make hay with quickness or athleticism. They can compete with the 235 group but will get muscled by the both the 250 pounders and the 275 pound group. Their superior mobility can cause issues.

I think Ndongo is a category 4 center as would be Souare. Onwuchekwa comes in as a category 3 Center with maybe an upside to develop into the category 2.
 
Last edited:

Root4GT

Helluva Engineer
Messages
2,937
It might be possible to clarify the "true" center debate by categorizing them by weight, I know this is somewhat arbitrary but work with me:

1. There are the guys 275+ pound guys that are really rare. These are the guys who are both tall and wide. The Centers in the other categories will make their weight by being tall or wide.

2. There are the ~250 pound guys who are still uncommon but their presence on the roster doesn't come down to outstanding luck or deep pockets. These are the guys who can at least compete and make it tough for the 275 pound rarities.

3. There are the 235 pound guys. Maybe the most common group in the college game. This group will be dominated by the 275 pound centers but they can compete with the 250 pound group. These guys are not so rare.

4. There are the 220 pound or less guys. These are the String beans and they make hay with quickness or athleticism. They can compete with the 235 group but will get muscled by the both the 250 pounders and the 275 pound group. Their superior mobility can cause issues.

I think Ndongo is a category 4 center as would be Souare. Onwuchekwa comes in as a category 3 Center with maybe an upside to develop into the category 2.
The one missing piece is 7 foot guys who are good 3 point shooters. They cause real problems for the heavy guys and are tall/long enough to present issues on defense around the rim.

Some really good 3 point shooters fall in all your categories. Some of your category guys can’t shoot a lick from beyond the arc.
Last year BC’s Quintin Post is a good example. 7’, average athlete in the 235 pound range but hit 43% from 3 point range and 51% overall. Also he had 61 blocked shots.

A guy like that would thrive in what I believe is CDS’ preferred offense.
 

YlJacket

Helluva Engineer
Messages
3,249
The one missing piece is 7 foot guys who are good 3 point shooters. They cause real problems for the heavy guys and are tall/long enough to present issues on defense around the rim.

Some really good 3 point shooters fall in all your categories. Some of your category guys can’t shoot a lick from beyond the arc.
Last year BC’s Quintin Post is a good example. 7’, average athlete in the 235 pound range but hit 43% from 3 point range and 51% overall. Also he had 61 blocked shots.

A guy like that would thrive in what I believe is CDS’ preferred offense.
Looking at Boston as a predicate, you can see that Porzingis did well in Boston's offense as a pick and pop 5. However, Boston also has two 6'7"+ All NBA max contract guys who don't really need ball screens to initiate the offense or get their shot - and are high end 3 point shooters. And certainly don't need the roll action to be effective themselves. If you look at George and McCollum I believe they both do need an active roll to help them be effective. Neither are knock down 3 point shooters and George is not a strong one on one penetrator from the wing. Great at turning the corner from a high screen and working off an explosive roll though. Point being, a pick and pop 5 can be effective in this offense but I don't think the 2 key guards we have will flourish in a pick and pop set as much as they do/will on a pick and roll set.

Personally, I am more worried about finding a 4 who can play defense and rebound while shooting well enough to keep the floor spread. I am hoping O'Brian is that guy but whomever it is I don't care. We just need him. IMHO that was by far the biggest hole we had last year - much bigger issue than the couple of times NDongo got overwhelmed by a bigger 5 on the defensive end.
 

MtnWasp

Ramblin' Wreck
Messages
962
Personally, I am more worried about finding a 4 who can play defense and rebound while shooting well enough to keep the floor spread. I am hoping O'Brian is that guy but whomever it is I don't care. We just need him. IMHO that was by far the biggest hole we had last year - much bigger issue than the couple of times NDongo got overwhelmed by a bigger 5 on the defensive end.
That is an interesting take. I guess one could make an argument that the same has been true since James Banks left and Moses Wright had to slide over to Center and Usher had to man the 4.

If Onwuchekwa can play C adequately and that allows Ndongo to slide over to the 4, does that solve the problem in your eyes?
 

Root4GT

Helluva Engineer
Messages
2,937
Looking at Boston as a predicate, you can see that Porzingis did well in Boston's offense as a pick and pop 5. However, Boston also has two 6'7"+ All NBA max contract guys who don't really need ball screens to initiate the offense or get their shot - and are high end 3 point shooters. And certainly don't need the roll action to be effective themselves. If you look at George and McCollum I believe they both do need an active roll to help them be effective. Neither are knock down 3 point shooters and George is not a strong one on one penetrator from the wing. Great at turning the corner from a high screen and working off an explosive roll though. Point being, a pick and pop 5 can be effective in this offense but I don't think the 2 key guards we have will flourish in a pick and pop set as much as they do/will on a pick and roll set.

Personally, I am more worried about finding a 4 who can play defense and rebound while shooting well enough to keep the floor spread. I am hoping O'Brian is that guy but whomever it is I don't care. We just need him. IMHO that was by far the biggest hole we had last year - much bigger issue than the couple of times NDongo got overwhelmed by a bigger 5 on the defensive end.
Agree on the need for more from a 4. I think both George and McCollum will be better shooters off the Pick and Roll this season. If the defender goes under the Ndongo screen I expect both will be capable of hitting the now open 3 point shot. If the defender fights over the screen George showed a pretty good floater late last season. If he continues to improve there the defense is in a dilemma. If the big goes for George than Ndongo has an easy path to the rim. If the big stays with Ndongo the floater is there. If the corner defender comes in then an open 3 is available. I don’t know how good McCollum is at attacking the rim.

Should be fun to watch and see the growth in Ndongo and George as well as how the new guys fit in. Reece showed he was a solid complementary player last year as Terry did the prior season.

Actually exciting to look forward to a GTBB season again.
 

YlJacket

Helluva Engineer
Messages
3,249
That is an interesting take. I guess one could make an argument that the same has been true since James Banks left and Moses Wright had to slide over to Center and Usher had to man the 4.

If Onwuchekwa can play C adequately and that allows Ndongo to slide over to the 4, does that solve the problem in your eyes?
If Ndongo improves his shooting enough to keep the floor spread. When he played the 4 last year at the start of games, very few teams guarded him in the corner giving an extra defender in the paint on the pick/roll action (as much as Duwuono could do it). This is why we went through Gapare (high ceiling/low production) and eventually settled on giving Coleman the majority of the minutes at the 4 (along with Claude). But Coleman got the majority of the minutes as he could shoot or at least was a threat to shoot and kept the floor more open.

Last year's Ndongo could take the Claude role and play the short corner/dunker spot and do that at least as well as Claude did - likely better. But again, we have 2 primary guards that want to get to the hoop off the role so why crowd the lane for them? Spread the floor and create as much space in the paint as possible and/or easy kick outs to guys who can actually knock down corner 3's. Ndongo has an elite college skill in his explosiveness on the role and especially his ability to make decisions when he gets a quick pass around the foul line on the role. In today's game with the scheme CDS is running, I truly don't understand why we are pining for an old school 5. And as I said above I am a huge fan of old school post/midrange offensive sets. Those days are just gone.
 
Top