Mostly “Fire Geoff Collins”, some reminiscing, maybe bourbon or other distractions

yeti92

Helluva Engineer
Messages
3,179
“king of bad faith arguments”

apparently that’s what i get for not being over the top negative
No it's what you get when you routinely make arguments while completely ignoring facts, and when you are called out on making crap up you just brush it off like it doesn't matter that what you said was demonstrably false.
 

takethepoints

Helluva Engineer
Messages
6,138
So .500 is good enough now?
Of course, it is! Winning half of our games isn't -perish the thought - mediocre! That only applies to teams that win 7 games and go to a bowl. That's what defines mediocrity, don't you know!

Now, you watch. We'll have people here who will say just about that if we win 5 - 6 games. I mean, we're on the road to being a perennial top 15 team! It's just a matter of time!

Sorry, but I see so much of this foolishness so regularly around here.
 

Randy Carson

Helluva Engineer
Messages
1,382
Location
Apex, NC
It's troubling to me that someone who supposedly has expertise on defense MAY HAVE watched what happened this past season without intervening.

I mean, wouldn't you have stepped in to fix something that was obviously broken if you knew how to do so? So, was this just laissez-faire coaching?

Alternatively, what if CGC did sit in on the meetings with the defense...and what we saw was as good as he could produce? <shudder>

So, here are the possibilities:
  • He didn't think the defense was broken. (In which case, wth?)
  • He knew the defense was broken but took a hands-off management approach. (In which case, we need a new HC.)
  • He knew the defense was broken and tried to fix it, but couldn't. (In which case, we need a new DC or some new players or both.)
Regardless of which option you choose, you almost can't avoid the conclusion: CGC ain't the guy.

I say "almost" because there is fourth possibility...one I think a lot of folks are clinging to...and that is that CGC was simply stretched too thin to be able to intervene. In which case, hiring the new OC will allow CGC to concentrate on the defense, and we'll see some improvements on both sides of the ball this year.
 

4shotB

Helluva Engineer
Retired Staff
Messages
5,113
It's troubling to me that someone who supposedly has expertise on defense MAY HAVE watched what happened this past season without intervening.

I mean, wouldn't you have stepped in to fix something that was obviously broken if you knew how to do so? So, was this just laissez-faire coaching?

Alternatively, what if CGC did sit in on the meetings with the defense...and what we saw was as good as he could produce? <shudder>

So, here are the possibilities:
  • He didn't think the defense was broken. (In which case, wth?)
  • He knew the defense was broken but took a hands-off management approach. (In which case, we need a new HC.)
  • He knew the defense was broken and tried to fix it, but couldn't. (In which case, we need a new DC or some new players or both.)
Regardless of which option you choose, you almost can't avoid the conclusion: CGC ain't the guy.

I say "almost" because there is fourth possibility...one I think a lot of folks are clinging to...and that is that CGC was simply stretched too thin to be able to intervene. In which case, hiring the new OC will allow CGC to concentrate on the defense, and we'll see some improvements on both sides of the ball this year.

there is one other possibility at work here imo....our defense has been undisputably bad ( we may quibble over the varying degrees of bad from year to year but the point remains) for 15 or so years under two HC's and multiple DC's. Perhaps there are systemic issues that are at play. I think laying it all at the feet of "luck" and saying we have made that many bad hires in a row is implausible.
 

Richard7125

Jolly Good Fellow
Messages
465
It's troubling to me that someone who supposedly has expertise on defense MAY HAVE watched what happened this past season without intervening.

I mean, wouldn't you have stepped in to fix something that was obviously broken if you knew how to do so? So, was this just laissez-faire coaching?

Alternatively, what if CGC did sit in on the meetings with the defense...and what we saw was as good as he could produce? <shudder>

So, here are the possibilities:
  • He didn't think the defense was broken. (In which case, wth?)
  • He knew the defense was broken but took a hands-off management approach. (In which case, we need a new HC.)
  • He knew the defense was broken and tried to fix it, but couldn't. (In which case, we need a new DC or some new players or both.)
Regardless of which option you choose, you almost can't avoid the conclusion: CGC ain't the guy.

I say "almost" because there is fourth possibility...one I think a lot of folks are clinging to...and that is that CGC was simply stretched too thin to be able to intervene. In which case, hiring the new OC will allow CGC to concentrate on the defense, and we'll see some improvements on both sides of the ball this year.
Tech's defense was bad but they weren't epically bad until the last few games. They had some decent showings against Clemson, UNC, Va Tech, maybe miami. Everyone talks about 100-0 in the last two games but that was the last two games. Kind of hard to make big changes at the end of the season playing two top 5 teams.
 

slugboy

Moderator
Staff member
Messages
11,710
Tech's defense was bad but they weren't epically bad until the last few games. They had some decent showings against Clemson, UNC, Va Tech, maybe miami. Everyone talks about 100-0 in the last two games but that was the last two games. Kind of hard to make big changes at the end of the season playing two top 5 teams.
In a lot of ways, Pitt was the pivotal game last season. The defense looked good and penetrated against UNC. The team had played two good games in a row, but only one win.
The team wins Pitt, and they have their first winning streak of the Collins era. Bowls look possible. We got stomped.
The week before, Collins and Thacker both said how happy they were with the 3-3-5. They talked like they had found a magic formula.
Then Pitt happened.
Pitt could have scored much more in that game. They sat on the ball at the end of the first half. While some of that game and the UVA game was the result of our defense facing good offenses, those offenses performed above their average against us. Almost everyone did. Some by a good stretch.
The defense had two good games—Clemson and UNC. Clemson’s offense was a mess all year. There are younger teams with less heralded recruits that play better against the same competition that we face.
We knew at Pitt that our defense wasn’t working, and it got worse after that.
They had most of a season to fix the defense, not just two games.
 

orientalnc

Helluva Engineer
Retired Staff
Messages
10,026
Location
Oriental, NC
In a lot of ways, Pitt was the pivotal game last season. The defense looked good and penetrated against UNC. The team had played two good games in a row, but only one win.
The team wins Pitt, and they have their first winning streak of the Collins era. Bowls look possible. We got stomped.
The week before, Collins and Thacker both said how happy they were with the 3-3-5. They talked like they had found a magic formula.
Then Pitt happened.
Pitt could have scored much more in that game. They sat on the ball at the end of the first half. While some of that game and the UVA game was the result of our defense facing good offenses, those offenses performed above their average against us. Almost everyone did. Some by a good stretch.
The defense had two good games—Clemson and UNC. Clemson’s offense was a mess all year. There are younger teams with less heralded recruits that play better against the same competition that we face.
We knew at Pitt that our defense wasn’t working, and it got worse after that.
They had most of a season to fix the defense, not just two games.
It was against Pitt that I first noticed how out of position our defensive players were on lots of plays. I kinda rationalized that it was just Pitt and a really good QB, but it started me thinking this was not going to turn out well.
 

JacketFan137

Banned
Messages
2,536
In a lot of ways, Pitt was the pivotal game last season. The defense looked good and penetrated against UNC. The team had played two good games in a row, but only one win.
The team wins Pitt, and they have their first winning streak of the Collins era. Bowls look possible. We got stomped.
The week before, Collins and Thacker both said how happy they were with the 3-3-5. They talked like they had found a magic formula.
Then Pitt happened.
Pitt could have scored much more in that game. They sat on the ball at the end of the first half. While some of that game and the UVA game was the result of our defense facing good offenses, those offenses performed above their average against us. Almost everyone did. Some by a good stretch.
The defense had two good games—Clemson and UNC. Clemson’s offense was a mess all year. There are younger teams with less heralded recruits that play better against the same competition that we face.
We knew at Pitt that our defense wasn’t working, and it got worse after that.
They had most of a season to fix the defense, not just two games.
i think pickett could still be in the pocket now in march if our pass rush was going after him still. our guys generated zero pressure that entire game and he had ages in the pocket.
 

orientalnc

Helluva Engineer
Retired Staff
Messages
10,026
Location
Oriental, NC
i think pickett could still be in the pocket now in march if our pass rush was going after him still. our guys generated zero pressure that entire game and he had ages in the pocket.
I agree that we only got to Pickett a couple of times, but he was unloading quickly and our dbs never adjusted to the quick outs (especially to Addison). Once we tried playing tighter at the LOS, he went over our heads for a long TD pass.
 

Vespidae

Helluva Engineer
Messages
5,332
Location
Auburn, AL
It's troubling to me that someone who supposedly has expertise on defense MAY HAVE watched what happened this past season without intervening.

I mean, wouldn't you have stepped in to fix something that was obviously broken if you knew how to do so? So, was this just laissez-faire coaching?

Alternatively, what if CGC did sit in on the meetings with the defense...and what we saw was as good as he could produce? <shudder>

So, here are the possibilities:
  • He didn't think the defense was broken. (In which case, wth?)
  • He knew the defense was broken but took a hands-off management approach. (In which case, we need a new HC.)
  • He knew the defense was broken and tried to fix it, but couldn't. (In which case, we need a new DC or some new players or both.)
Regardless of which option you choose, you almost can't avoid the conclusion: CGC ain't the guy.

I say "almost" because there is fourth possibility...one I think a lot of folks are clinging to...and that is that CGC was simply stretched too thin to be able to intervene. In which case, hiring the new OC will allow CGC to concentrate on the defense, and we'll see some improvements on both sides of the ball this year.
I think this is an excellent post. When I ran a rather large business, I recognized that my top commercial executives, the ones responsible for growing sales and market share ... were not up to the task. It was my field of expertise, so in addition to running the business, I chaired all the commercial meetings until ... I could replace them.

If Geoff is unhappy with the product, he may very well look back in a few years and say, "I wish I had gotten involved ...". As the leader, you own the results the team produces whether you like it, and can explain it, or not.
 

Sheboygan

Helluva Engineer
Messages
1,117
Location
Oostburg Wis. ( It's DUTCH !)
What concerns me about this team's coaching is the inability to adjust during games. It is not the only thing, but it has been consistent over the last 3 years.
Switching from the 4-2-5 to the 3-3-5 did work against UNC. Against Pitt it was obviously not working at all. Pitt was well prepared, in one week of practice, to exploit
our defense. If we made any adjustments at halftime, they were not evident to me. We have an experienced defensive minded HC, ( some consider him a "genius":rolleyes:).
Are we supposed to understand that there was nothing he could do to even slow the bleeding ? If Thatcher was in total charge of such a horrific performance last year, then explain to me why he was retained ? The basics of football were so poor- players out of position, poor pursuit angles, no wrapping up on tackles, stupid penalties, etc. Add that to average personnel and you get what we got- an unprepared , uninspired performance all season long- with few exceptions. Sad.
 

slugboy

Moderator
Staff member
Messages
11,710
So, here's Pickett against anyone from 2021 (https://www.espn.com/college-football/player/gamelog/_/id/4240703/kenny-pickett):

We were not the most points they scored all year, but we were third (thank you Duke and UNH). By QBR, Pickett had better games against Tennessee, Western Michigan (L), Clemson, and UNH. We may have had a worse game against Pitt than UMass.
We weren't the worst defensive effort they had, but it wasn't good.

2021 REGULAR SEASONPASSINGRUSHING
DATEOPPRESULTCMPATTYDSCMP%TDINTLNGSACKRTGQBRATTYDSAVGTDLNG
Sat 12/4vs16WAKEW203325360.62035314578.16203.3158
45-21
SUBWAY ACC CHAMPIONSHIP GAME
Sat 11/27@SYRW283820973.741251149.479341.309
31-14
Sat 11/20vsUVAW264134063.442623155.560.76-14-2.305
48-38
Thu 11/11vsUNCW254334658.131444144.163.510-11-1.106
30-23 OT
Sat 11/6@DUKEW284341665.130473169.485.18577.1122
54-29
Sat 10/30vsMIAL395551970.932394160.975.79-10-1.1014
38-34
Sat 10/23vsCLEMW253930264.120392146.191.57152.108
27-17
Sat 10/16@VTW223720359.520361123.467.412383.219
28-7
Sat 10/2@GTW233638963.940551191.386.96213.5013
52-21
Sat 9/25vsUNHW242840385.750472265.597.6561.2111
77-7
Sat 9/18vsWMUL233138274.261672235.192.39576.3020
44-41
Sat 9/11@TENNW243628566.720402151.588.510191.9113
41-34
Sat 9/4vsMASSW27372727320471152.671.66396.5018
51-7
TOTAL3344974,31967.24276729165.381.2972412.5558
 

Richard7125

Jolly Good Fellow
Messages
465
In a lot of ways, Pitt was the pivotal game last season. The defense looked good and penetrated against UNC. The team had played two good games in a row, but only one win.
The team wins Pitt, and they have their first winning streak of the Collins era. Bowls look possible. We got stomped.
The week before, Collins and Thacker both said how happy they were with the 3-3-5. They talked like they had found a magic formula.
Then Pitt happened.
Pitt could have scored much more in that game. They sat on the ball at the end of the first half. While some of that game and the UVA game was the result of our defense facing good offenses, those offenses performed above their average against us. Almost everyone did. Some by a good stretch.
The defense had two good games—Clemson and UNC. Clemson’s offense was a mess all year. There are younger teams with less heralded recruits that play better against the same competition that we face.
We knew at Pitt that our defense wasn’t working, and it got worse after that.
They had most of a season to fix the defense, not just two games.
Maybe. I was just offering up another reason why Collins may not have taken over the defense. We definitely stunk in the Pitt game but I think there was some rationalization because it was Kenny Picket and he will be the first QB picked in the draft. We followed the Pitt game with a win at Duke and the defense had decent games (relatively speaking) against VT and maybe Miami. Listen, we were a bad team last year (for the last three years). I don’t think the total train wreck happened until the last two to three games. It’s not like our offense was playing great either. We’re a bad team.
 

g0lftime

Helluva Engineer
Messages
6,029
What concerns me about this team's coaching is the inability to adjust during games. It is not the only thing, but it has been consistent over the last 3 years.
Switching from the 4-2-5 to the 3-3-5 did work against UNC. Against Pitt it was obviously not working at all. Pitt was well prepared, in one week of practice, to exploit
our defense. If we made any adjustments at halftime, they were not evident to me. We have an experienced defensive minded HC, ( some consider him a "genius":rolleyes:).
Are we supposed to understand that there was nothing he could do to even slow the bleeding ? If Thatcher was in total charge of such a horrific performance last year, then explain to me why he was retained ? The basics of football were so poor- players out of position, poor pursuit angles, no wrapping up on tackles, stupid penalties, etc. Add that to average personnel and you get what we got- an unprepared , uninspired performance all season long- with few exceptions. Sad.
Not just last year. Last 3 years.
 

cthenrys

Ramblin' Wreck
Messages
942
Location
Highland Village, TX
Some really good points on this, but take Occam's Razor. The simplest explanation is what some have seen from year 1 - CGC simply isn't ready for this position. It's surprising that there hasn't been some progression or development, but it simply hasn't been there. To zero in on one group, how in year three can you have an experienced secondary with well regarded talent that gets worse instead of better ? You can blame position coaches (fired), blame the DC (inexplicably still here), blame the players (bench em and put someone else in, but we never tried that), blame the message boards (scratch that...). It really comes down to a HC who has not improved one part of on the field, gameday performance in three years. The only good news is this time next year we are almost certainly talking about a new coach and new direction.
 

Northeast Stinger

Helluva Engineer
Messages
11,110
What concerns me about this team's coaching is the inability to adjust during games. It is not the only thing, but it has been consistent over the last 3 years.
Switching from the 4-2-5 to the 3-3-5 did work against UNC. Against Pitt it was obviously not working at all. Pitt was well prepared, in one week of practice, to exploit
our defense. If we made any adjustments at halftime, they were not evident to me. We have an experienced defensive minded HC, ( some consider him a "genius":rolleyes:).
Are we supposed to understand that there was nothing he could do to even slow the bleeding ? If Thatcher was in total charge of such a horrific performance last year, then explain to me why he was retained ? The basics of football were so poor- players out of position, poor pursuit angles, no wrapping up on tackles, stupid penalties, etc. Add that to average personnel and you get what we got- an unprepared , uninspired performance all season long- with few exceptions. Sad.
Yeah, you have nailed the cognitive dissonance in the whole defensive collapse question. No good answer for why Collins didn’t take over or why Thacker was retained. If and until we ever get more information from Collins every attempt to surmise an answer leaves you with a glaring contradiction in logic.
 
Top