Let's compare coaches, just for fun !

pbrown520

Ramblin' Wreck
Messages
586
11 points is a pretty big win when they were an underdog at home. Scraped by is a last second field goal to win by 3 points. We lost by double digits. I don’t want to be combative, but be honest with yourself about where we are.
I agree that the outcoached part gets over done but in this case it’s my opinion PJ was outcoached. Our players did enough to win and blaming them isn’t fair. Had PJ kicked short after the first run back knowing how bad coverage was and how fast that USF kid was we probably would have won. That’s a coaching decision.

Charlie’s team was penalized less and Strong coached a good game. His time at Texas or any game prior to the GT game is irrelevant. Just like PJ’s decision to attempt a fake punt at a completely unnecessary point in the game at PITT was another gaffe.

PJ is not a perfect Gameday coach and he has had several mistakes over the years. Let’s not pretend he is some coaching mastermind. Because he isn’t.

Do what? Players did enough to win? You think the players were coached to completely foul up the coverage? You think the RB was coached to fumble? You think the DL was coached to abandon lanes? You think all of this was done on gameday? I would say that at USF, if anything, PJ found a way to keep us in the game despite of everything. If there was any "out coaching" it was in the off-season. It sure as heck wasn't in the game.

Charlie's team was penalized less. I suppose PJ was responsible for the BS targeting calls. That's on PJ too, oh yeah, the holding call that's PJ.

Look, I get it, PJ isn't getting it done. I will be the first to say how disappointed I am and that it may be time to change, but Strong sure as hell didn't outcoach him.
 

tech_wreck47

Helluva Engineer
Messages
8,670
Players hate it, any potential Sidewalk fans hate it. Just a big fat sore thumb on the program, makes us a joke. People don’t realize some of the SAs GT recruits have never even heard of GT. It’s the reason so many of them say “Georgia Tech Unicersity” etc. Tech’s name alone doesn’t recruit itself like so many other P5 programs do. Imagine being a RB that’s never heard of Tech, then coming down for a visit and watching the game and seeing GT line up in wishbone. That’s why we hate it cause recruits do. Also a personal beef I have with the TO is Tech plays dirty and cut block on the Oline (No problem with the ABs doing it) I would seriously rather play Alabama’s offense than GTs as a defensive coordinator. Lot of people will say “WELL AINT THAT A GOOD THING?” No, it’s not. I will always support Tech’s student atheletes and would even support CPJ if he was just a head coach and allowed someone else to call plays but for now I’m done with the triple option. Even if Tech wins Saturday I’ll still want it out of there!
First, sidewalk fans don’t have an issue with the TO, at least the ones I know including myself, and I’m not some old dude, I’m in my 20’s. Recruits know who GT is also, maybe a few don’t, but most do. They call GT a university because pretty much every college is and that’s a simple mistake. As for the OL plays dirty is just not true, it’s not dangerous/dirty and there is no proof to it being so. Don’t you think if it were dangerous/dirty we would be hurting players left and right? Yet that doesn’t happen, it’s just false news that people have painted a narrative of because they honestly don’t know.
 

RiseUpATL

Banned
Messages
147
Do what? Players did enough to win? You think the players were coached to completely foul up the coverage? You think the RB was coached to fumble? You think the DL was coached to abandon lanes? You think all of this was done on gameday? I would say that at USF, if anything, PJ found a way to keep us in the game despite of everything. If there was any "out coaching" it was in the off-season. It sure as heck wasn't in the game.

Charlie's team was penalized less. I suppose PJ was responsible for the BS targeting calls. That's on PJ too, oh yeah, the holding call that's PJ.

Look, I get it, PJ isn't getting it done. I will be the first to say how disappointed I am and that it may be time to change, but Strong sure as hell didn't outcoach him.

We are going to have to agree to disagree. CPJ was outcoached by Charlie Strong 2 Saturday’s ago. That’s my opinion and I think it’s pretty clear. The coaches did not put them in the position to succeed. Good coaching in camp in practice absolutely is responsible for minimizing targeting calls and penalties. Do I think those calls were crap? Yes. We are not a sound football team and it’s directly related to coaching. But in regards to in game coaching during that game, PJ lost when he decided to kick to that kid a third time. Strong did not commit such an egregious error that put his team in jeopardy. Paul did. It’s pretty easy.

Also PJ said it himself too many freshmen were playing on coverage teams. That’s his fault for fielding them. Again, it comes down to the coach.
 

Skeptic

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Messages
6,372
....
PJ is not a perfect Gameday coach and he has had several mistakes over the years. Let’s not pretend he is some coaching mastermind. Because he isn’t.
No way he is perfect for sure. And one who coaches for 30 years or so -- who's counting?-- will, I guarantee he has had more than "several" mistakes. Wouldn't you think? Now, the fake punt? There you have a winner. A bad coaching decision, though I grant we are looking at it in hindsight. More than one successful coach has noted his genius is evident only when a play works. Maybe his mistake was selecting the ball toter. Early in his tenure he threw to a converted tight end playing tackle needing a first down. He (Barrett?) had it. Cold. Except he reverted to his glory days and went all twinkle toes and stiff arm and got hammered short. That, not the play, was maybe the bad coaching decision. Except he was in fact recruited as a tight end and unless you are the guy from Clemson last season, tight ends don't do pirouettes. Regardless, that was in fact a bad decision.
 

takethepoints

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Messages
6,098
The mistake was not firing pellini, but hiring Riley.

Hard to believe we have fans more loyal to a man (one given an extraordinary length of time here) than to the school and the program.

Man makes millions, and if he headed the math dept he would have been long gone.
This post is personally insulting to me.

Anyone who has paid even the slightest attention to my posts here down through the years knows that I have always had the long-term success of the program as my major goal. That's why I like Coach: he helps mitigate our recruiting disadvantages and he knows what he's doing. You, like many fonts here, are suffering from a variety of delusions about our situation. Let's go over them, shall we?

• "The offense cripples our recruiting! If we were running something else it would be a lot easier to get premier athletes to come to Tech!"
Well, to put it briefly, no. Since the NCAA put in the graduation progress rules and the 85 player limit and Tech continued to ramp up entrance requirements, the situation we had in the Ross/O'Leary years is gone. We are also an engineering school; it's like MIT was playing P5 football. A change in our offense - which, you'll notice, has worked pretty well - won't change the context of our recruiting one whit. And, I might add, the only thing that is fueling these concerns is a few critical injuries and academic/discipline problems. We lost several really good recruits (Custis, Leggett, Mills, Jordan, Johnson, Benson, Klock, A. Marshall, and several others) to those in recent years. Get half those players back and healthy and our recruiting would look a lot better. So would our record.

• "The Hill is the problem! If we only got an administration more interested in winning football, we'd be able to get better quickly!"
The Hill is concerned, as it should be, with the academic program of the school. The athletic programs are an inheritance that they tolerate because it helps with alumni relations. Some of them like going to the games, but most don't. Same with a lot of the students; they didn't come to Tech to watch football. Here I think we ought to be careful of what we ask for. If the drumbeat keeps up sooner or later the Hill will reply: "Ok, we're going to quit the ACC, join the AAC, play a much less demanding schedule (we should do that anyway), and win more! After all, you asked us to do that, right?"

• "If we changed the curriculum we could attract better players!"
As others have pointed out, the BOR won't go along with this and for very good reasons. Having a premier technical university in Georgia is an immense selling point for hi-tech businesses and a major incubator of new ones. And, of course, the faculty wouldn't take to this at all well. Most of them came to Tech because of the curriculum and consider (I know some) the football program a costly distraction. Same with the Hill, of course.

What Coach does for us is the same thing he did for Navy: he gives us an avenue for overcoming many of these problems. That's why I was so enthusiastic about his coming to Tech and why I think he deserves support through this rough patch. We are just now getting around to doing things he has been calling for for years. We need to see what he can do with them.

I'm not sure why you've suddenly decided to simply ignore the actual situation of our football program the way you have been doing, but don't presume to think that I am some sort of Paul Johnson fan boy ever again.
 
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OldJacketFan

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Nashville, TN
This post is personally insulting to me.

Anyone who has paid even the slightest attention to my posts here down through the years knows that I have always had the long-term success of the program as my major goal. That's why I like Coach: he helps mitigate our recruiting disadvantages and he knows what he's doing. You, like many fonts here, are suffering from a variety of delusions about our situation. Let's go over them, shall we?

• "The offense cripples our recruiting! If we were running something else it would be a lot easier to get premier athletes to come to Tech!"
Well, to put it briefly, no. Since the NCAA put in the graduation progress rules and the 85 player limit and Tech continued to ramp up entrance requirements, the situation we had in the Ross/O'Leary years is gone. We are also an engineering school; it's like MIT was playing P5 football. A change in our offense - which, you'll notice, has worked pretty well - won't change the context of our recruiting one whit. And, I might add, the only thing that is fueling these concerns is a few critical injuries and academic/discipline problems. We lost several really good recruits (Custis, Leggett, Mills, Jordan, Johnson, Benson, Klock, A. Marshall, and several others) to those in recent years. Get half those players back and healthy and our recruiting would look a lot better. So would our record.

• "The Hill is the problem! If we only got an administration more interested in winning football, we'd be able to get better quickly!"
The Hill is concerned, as it should be, with the academic program of the school. The athletic programs are an inheritance that they tolerate because it helps with alumni relations. Some of them like going to the games, but most don't. Same with a lot of the students; they didn't come to Tech to watch football. Here I think we ought to be careful of what we ask for. If the drumbeat keeps up sooner or later the Hill will reply: "Ok, we're going to quit the ACC, join the AAC, play a much less demanding schedule (we should do that anyway), and win more! After all, you asked us to do that, right?"

• "If we changed the curriculum we could attract better players!"
As others have pointed out, the BOR won't go along with this and for very good reasons. Having a premier technical university in Georgia is an immense selling point for hi-tech businesses and a major incubator of new ones. And, of course, the faculty wouldn't take to this at all well. Most of them came to Tech because of the curriculum and consider (I know some) the football program a costly distraction. Same with the Hill, of course.

What Coach does for us is the same thing he did for Navy: he gives us an avenue for overcoming many of these problems. That's why I was so enthusiastic about his coming to Tech and why I think he deserves support through this rough patch. We are just now getting around to doing things he has been calling for for years. We need to see what he can do with them.

I'm not sure why you've suddenly decided to simply ignore the actual situation of our football program the way you have been doing, but don't presume to think that I am some sort of Paul Johnson fan boy ever again.[/QUOTE

Preach it! To some the ONLY hindrance to Tech football is PJ and when things aren't at the best they take every opportunity to beat that drum. No one's happy at 1-2 but look at is realistically instead of agenda driven.
 

MidtownJacket

Moderator
Staff member
Messages
4,862
This post is personally insulting to me.

Anyone who has paid even the slightest attention to my posts here down through the years knows that I have always had the long-term success of the program as my major goal. That's why I like Coach: he helps mitigate our recruiting disadvantages and he knows what he's doing. You, like many fonts here, are suffering from a variety of delusions about our situation. Let's go over them, shall we?

• "The offense cripples our recruiting! If we were running something else it would be a lot easier to get premier athletes to come to Tech!"
Well, to put it briefly, no. Since the NCAA put in the graduation progress rules and the 85 player limit and Tech continued to ramp up entrance requirements, the situation we had in the Ross/O'Leary years is gone. We are also an engineering school; it's like MIT was playing P5 football. A change in our offense - which, you'll notice, has worked pretty well - won't change the context of our recruiting one whit. And, I might add, the only thing that is fueling these concerns is a few critical injuries and academic/discipline problems. We lost several really good recruits (Custis, Leggett, Mills, Jordan, Johnson, Benson, Klock, A. Marshall, and several others) to those in recent years. Get half those players back and healthy and our recruiting would look a lot better. So would our record.

• "The Hill is the problem! If we only got an administration more interested in winning football, we'd be able to get better quickly!"
The Hill is concerned, as it should be, with the academic program of the school. The athletic programs are an inheritance that they tolerate because it helps with alumni relations. Some of them like going to the games, but most don't. Same with a lot of the students; they didn't come to Tech to watch football. Here I think we ought to be careful of what we ask for. If the drumbeat keeps up sooner or later the Hill will reply: "Ok, we're going to quit the ACC, join the AAC, play a much less demanding schedule (we should do that anyway), and win more! After all, you asked us to do that, right?"

• "If we changed the curriculum we could attract better players!"
As others have pointed out, the BOR won't go along with this and for very good reasons. Having a premier technical university in Georgia is an immense selling point for hi-tech businesses and a major incubator of new ones. And, of course, the faculty wouldn't take to this at all well. Most of them came to Tech because of the curriculum and consider (I know some) the football program a costly distraction. Same with the Hill, of course.

What Coach does for us is the same thing he did for Navy: he gives us an avenue for overcoming many of these problems. That's why I was so enthusiastic about his coming to Tech and why I think he deserves support through this rough patch. We are just now getting around to doing things he has been calling for for years. We need to see what he can do with them.

I'm not sure why you've suddenly decided to simply ignore the actual situation of our football program the way you have been doing, but don't presume to think that I am some sort of Paul Johnson fan boy ever again.
#TakeThePointsAndDropTheMic
 

GT_EE78

Banned
Messages
3,605
No, but the players have been more what we needed over that period. As you should know, we reliably grade out better at the end of a class cycle then programs rated much more highly in initial recruiting. That's because we have more standard requirements for the offense - not so for D - and we get players who can do the job. Best recent example = Kirvontae Benson. But I recently said my piece on the accuracy of recruiting "ratings" and I expect you wouldn't agree.
I don't recall seeing your post but even tho recruit ratings and team rankings aren't perfectly accurate, they are still by far the best predictive metric for assessing the future success of a program.
 

smokey_wasp

Helluva Engineer
Messages
5,486
Why do some of y’all hate the TO so much? Seriously, I Gailey’s offense was just terrible. That is something I would loathe to come back to GT. The TO has been very successful and actually has, for the most part, put up better numbers than Ralph Fridgen’s offense. While Ralph’s offense had advantages over CPJ’s offense, this offense has been much better than most of the current offenses in the NCAA. While it is frustrating to see how many mistakes are made that would have sprung runs or wide open receivers that were missed, you cannon deny that the offense has not been what has held us back.

I like the offense fine, but TO and pro style arent our only choices. Gailey's offense is obsolete even by NFL standards. No one is bringing that back.
 

GT_EE78

Banned
Messages
3,605
An interesting name no one has brought up: Bud Foster. I don't think the guy needs any introduction.

Dude is basically an institution at VT, but you have to believe getting passed over for Fuentes probably let him know his ceiling at VT.

http://www.dailypress.com/sports/virginia-tech/dp-spt-bud-foster-staying-20151130-story.html

But first Foster, 56, had to set aside ego and disappointment. He wanted to replace Beamer. At the very least, he wanted an opportunity to present Babcock his vision for the program.

"My window as a head coach, as we've talked over the years, has gotten smaller and smaller and smaller, and it's probably as small as it can be right now. But at the same time, I still think I can bring a lot of value to the program, or any program. And I love this program. I love the Hokie Nation. They've taken me in and made me feel part of a bigger family."

Team Foster up with an up and coming OC from FCS or lower FBS, and could be a dream team for GT. Top notch defensive mind and an exciting OC that appeals to the loaded offensive players the state of GA produces every year.
Foster,interesting has anyone asked him if he's available for the clemson game?
 

takethepoints

Helluva Engineer
Messages
6,098
Assuming he could pass the ball, protect the passer, catch the ball, place kick, and rush the passer, yes, our problems would indeed be over.



Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
With Mills back there all of these - except the kicking - would be better. Mills gets established as a runner = more time to set and throw. Mills gets established as a runner = effective play action makes pass blocking easier. Mills gets established as a runner = the D is off the field more and lack of a pass rush becomes less of a problem. And you left out 4th down production, TDs, and two point conversions; Mills specialized in these.

Yes, he was that good and that important. Biggest loss the program has had in years.
 

SteamWhistle

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4,435
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Rome, GA
plus Atlanta is the capitol of hip hop, which is surely appealing to most of the high school demographic.
Right now as a teenager I can tell you Athens is more popular. Atlanta is great but not for partying. Even Tech players go down to Athens or sometimes Kennesaw for the weekends to party. Atlanta is an awesome city but right now Athens is more popular with people my age. @ChasonBaller what do you think?
 

Skeptic

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Messages
6,372
The offense is fine. I like the offense. But during PJs 11 years he has been able to recruit exactly 1 QB capable of maximizing its ability and even then it was only one year. Recruiting OL is difficult as evidenced over the last 4 years and it’s apparently too complicated for them to block effectively because there are constant miscommunications. Also our WRs are absolutely a liability. We do not have a dynamic threat and it’s been 4 recruiting classes since 2014. I think the stigma of our offense has impacted WR recruiting now whereas early on in PJs time we were able to snag a couple good ones. That had completely dried up now though.

The offense also impacts recruiting on defense. Top defensive talent does not want to practice against the offense and doing so does not adequately prepare the defense for more traditional offenses.

So in short, the offense is great if we were able to simply get the players needed to run it competitively at this level but I don’t think good/elite (knowing we shouldn’t expect to get elite talent). I think the offense substantially reduces our chances which are already hard for us to get better talent.
Of all the directly football related complaints about Johnson, the recruiting and/or retention of QBs who can run his offense is the only legitimate beef in my unschooled opinion. I ran what was considered an option offense in HS. Thought I was good at it. Having seen Johnson's offense, and having tried to decipher it, the only thing I know for sure is that I ran a keep-it-and-run-fast offense, or a hang-on-till-the-last-then-pitch-it offense.The complexity and skill of his spread option makes that job incredibly hard to fill. That he has not been able to do it must be a lot more frustrating to him than to us, though from reading this board one might doubt it.

But I don't think there is a better game coach or a better tactician in the game. Yep, when he blows one -- the fake punt at South Florida -- then it is not a state secret. So, I hope he gets or develops a QB. And the AD develops his social skills to keep him from being so damned defensive. And life will be good.
 

MidtownJacket

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Staff member
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4,862
With Mills back there all of these - except the kicking - would be better. Mills gets established as a runner = more time to set and throw. Mills gets established as a runner = effective play action makes pass blocking easier. Mills gets established as a runner = the D is off the field more and lack of a pass rush becomes less of a problem. And you left out 4th down production, TDs, and two point conversions; Mills specialized in these.

Yes, he was that good and that important. Biggest loss the program has had in years.
I have been struck by this the last few seasons. The no contact loss of QB2 is equally painful.
 

RiseUpATL

Banned
Messages
147
So, I hope he gets or develops a QB. And the AD develops his social skills to keep him from being so damned defensive. And life will be good.

Issue with what you are saying is that we are in year 11. CPJ has yet to really develop a QB in passing and I hate to break it to you but 11 years and 3 ADs later CPJ ain taking media relations training.
 

takethepoints

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Messages
6,098
Issue with what you are saying is that we are in year 11. CPJ has yet to really develop a QB in passing and I hate to break it to you but 11 years and 3 ADs later CPJ ain taking media relations training.
Actually, we've had two: Vad Lee and JT. And Tevin was close.

But you said "really". I sense a "No True Scotsman" argument lurking here: "Yes, I know about JT but he wasn't really a passing QB!" No way to overcome that or reason to waste ink trying.
 

smokey_wasp

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5,486
Actually, we've had two: Vad Lee and JT. And Tevin was close.

But you said "really". I sense a "No True Scotsman" argument lurking here: "Yes, I know about JT but he wasn't really a passing QB!" No way to overcome that or reason to waste ink trying.

JT, maybe. Tevin, yes. Your inclusion of Vad is a head scratcher.
 

takethepoints

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6,098
I don't recall seeing your post but even tho recruit ratings and team rankings aren't perfectly accurate, they are still by far the best predictive metric for assessing the future success of a program.
We aren't arguing here though it may seem like it. I'd like to see us do better in recruiting too, though I don't put as much emphasis on ratings as you do. An example from 247 for 2018:

#30 Louisville 23 recruits 4**** 19**** Rating: 87.02

#54 Tech 21 recruits 2**** 19**** Rating 84.76

Why is Tech rated 24 slots lower then Louisville? First, 2 fewer recruits. Second, Louisville had 2 more 4**** recruits. And the overall difference of their overall ratings = 2.26 points. I don't have time to try to figure out if this is a significant difference, but I'm willing to bet that it isn't. The difference is due to 2 more recruits with slightly higher ratings for Louisville. Now, does this translate into a real difference on the field? Could be, but maybe not. Does the difference between Tech and Ugag (#1) translate into a difference on the field? Much more probable.

As usual with such ratings, the folks who did really well stick out like a sore thumb and benefit from it. Differences between programs that did ok are usually, imho, not worth looking at. Or complaining about.
 
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