Interesting Article on Effect of Spread Offenses on Rushing

[vamosjackets]

Really good article by Andrea Adelson:
http://espn.go.com/college-football...rease-2000-yard-rushers?ex_cid=espnapi_public

Don't know if it belongs in this forum, but thought it an interesting topic to discuss. It certainly has implications on the kind of defense we play. Roof has gone to a base Nickel due to the frequency of facing the spread. Are we doing what's best as an overall strategy for all of the teams we face? I really like Narduzzi's approach (and it obviously worked well at Mich St). Would Tenuta's approach work as well in this era as it did back in the mid 2000's when we probably faced more pro-style or power running teams than spread teams?

 

[AE 87]

Really good article by Andrea Adelson:
http://espn.go.com/college-football...rease-2000-yard-rushers?ex_cid=espnapi_public

Don't know if it belongs in this forum, but thought it an interesting topic to discuss. It certainly has implications on the kind of defense we play. Roof has gone to a base Nickel due to the frequency of facing the spread. Are we doing what's best as an overall strategy for all of the teams we face? I really like Narduzzi's approach (and it obviously worked well at Mich St). Would Tenuta's approach work as well in this era as it did back in the mid 2000's when we probably faced more pro-style or power running teams than spread teams?

Tenuta's D at uva was top 10 in ppd allowed vs P5 teams last year.

 

[Whiskey_Clear]

That UVA D had some talented players also. Their O and head coach...not so much.....kind of a tired story for Tenuta....has he been cursed by the football gods?

 

[GTNavyNuke]

@vamosjackets , thanks for a good article. You asked how should other teams defend us.

This article talked about how spread offenses enabled higher rushing yardage by spreading out the D. And it also talked about how teams didn't have the power running game. It seems to me that lining up under center and the BB dive is the power game. Especially when it's run again and again till the other team stops it. So do we have a spread power game?

Also CPJ has a very different overall philosophy, I think than this ""At the end of the day, you're trying to put the ball in the hands of the best player on your team," Addazio said. "

Yes it's true we want the ball in the hands of the best player, but first and foremost we want to get the ball to the player who is open, not the best player who is covered. CPJ has said many times that the ball goes to the player who is in the best position to get yardage.

So how to defend?
1) Play bend and don't break. Have us turn over the ball like we did in 2010 (and didn't do as much in 2014). So the D has to be spread out and limit the plays to 4 or 5 yards a play, hoping we make a mistake.
2) Defend the run from the inside out.
3) Force the QB to keep the ball next. Increases the chance of injuring the QB or more likely making him less effective due to fatigue as well as forcing him to pitch (more likely turnover).
4) Defend the pitch next, leaving the pass as the last option.
5) Give up the short passes so that there are more plays and more chance of turnover.

So @vamosjackets , what D is the best to do these 5 things in the order of priority? As with ANY offense, if the offense can execute it's basic concept, the defense will lose. But offensive discipline breaks down and the defense takes advantage.......

One last thought: While speed kills, bludgeoning the D with the same play is far more satisfying to me. No mercy.

 

[DC Bee]

So how to defend?

I fixed it.

1) Play bend and don't break and pray to God GT turns over the ball like it did in 2010. If not, the D has to be spread out to at least limit the plays to 4 or 5 yards a play, hoping GT hogs the ball offensively for 40 minutes a game to keep the final score down a lessen the external perception of a total beat down.

2) Defend the run from the inside out, so you only get burned on the corners.

3) Force the QB to keep the ball next. It's better to get burned by one Heisman trophy candidate than a cadre of players, the latter of which makes the entire defensive scheme look inept.

4) Defend the pitch next, because they say that assignment defense always beats the option

5) Give up the short passes because they say that GT has no deep threat

 

[Legal Jacket]

@vamosjackets , thanks for a good article. You asked how should other teams defend us.

This article talked about how spread offenses enabled higher rushing yardage by spreading out the D. And it also talked about how teams didn't have the power running game. It seems to me that lining up under center and the BB dive is the power game. Especially when it's run again and again till the other team stops it. So do we have a spread power game?

Also CPJ has a very different overall philosophy, I think than this ""At the end of the day, you're trying to put the ball in the hands of the best player on your team," Addazio said. "

Yes it's true we want the ball in the hands of the best player, but first and foremost we want to get the ball to the player who is open, not the best player who is covered. CPJ has said many times that the ball goes to the player who is in the best position to get yardage.

So how to defend?
1) Play bend and don't break. Have us turn over the ball like we did in 2010 (and didn't do as much in 2014). So the D has to be spread out and limit the plays to 4 or 5 yards a play, hoping we make a mistake.
2) Defend the run from the inside out.
3) Force the QB to keep the ball next. Increases the chance of injuring the QB or more likely making him less effective due to fatigue as well as forcing him to pitch (more likely turnover).
4) Defend the pitch next, leaving the pass as the last option.
5) Give up the short passes so that there are more plays and more chance of turnover.

So @vamosjackets , what D is the best to do these 5 things in the order of priority? As with ANY offense, if the offense can execute it's basic concept, the defense will lose. But offensive discipline breaks down and the defense takes advantage.......

One last thought: While speed kills, bludgeoning the D with the same play is far more satisfying to me. No mercy.

Good post but we clearly try to get the ball in the hands of our best players. For WRs it's obvious. We usually have a bell cow plus a couple of ABs who can catch. We've shown favoritism over most years with 1-2 ABs getting a high number of carries. We definitely spread it some, but we def focus on getting the ball to the best player

 

[GTNavyNuke]

Good post but we clearly try to get the ball in the hands of our best players. For WRs it's obvious. We usually have a bell cow plus a couple of ABs who can catch. We've shown favoritism over most years with 1-2 ABs getting a high number of carries. We definitely spread it some, but we def focus on getting the ball to the best player

I agree on a called pass play we are trying to do that. But on our bread and butter option plays (60-70%?), it goes to the guy who the D isn't covering. The best thing is that as our talent level is going up overall, our chain has stronger weak links. Kind of like @DC Bee fixed it for me.

 

[Oldgoldandwhite]

Bottom line - you have to play assignment football. This goes against the defensive players natural instinct, which is to seek and destroy.

 

[PBR549]

I agree on a called pass play we are trying to do that. But on our bread and butter option plays (60-70%?), it goes to the guy who the D isn't covering. The best thing is that as our talent level is going up overall, our chain has stronger weak links. Kind of like @DC Bee fixed it for me.

Many times Coach Johnson can manipulate that through formation or hashmark etc. I mean through experience and film study he can just about tell you who will get the ball before the play call on the triple.

 

[cuttysark]

The unique feature of the CPJ offensive scheme is that the ball is always in the hands of the best offensive player (QB Justin Thomas) to start the play, who will then go through his option reads and keys and get the rock to the player who is in position to take best advantage of where the defense is deficient either up the middle in the A or B gaps; the edge if the DE doesn't close down or closes down too quickly; or pitch it to an A-Back in the alley who already has an angle advantage on the safety.

Toss in an experienced offensive line and GT is ready for business. This offense is truly unbiased in who gets the football each down as it all comes down to whoever is in the best position to get yardage once the play is underway.

 

[AE 87]

Fwiw, this is a problem in equating our offense with a play. The D dictates who gets the ball on our bread and butter play, but we run other plays to take advantage of personnel. CPJ will get the ball into a hot hand when we have one.

 

[Skeptic]

The unique feature of the CPJ offensive scheme is that the ball is always in the hands of the best offensive player (QB Justin Thomas) to start the play, who will then go through his option reads and keys and get the rock to the player who is in position to take best advantage of where the defense is deficient either up the middle in the A or B gaps; the edge if the DE doesn't close down or closes down too quickly; or pitch it to an A-Back in the alley who already has an angle advantage on the safety.

Toss in an experienced offensive line and GT is ready for business. This offense is truly unbiased in who gets the football each down as it all comes down to whoever is in the best position to get yardage once the play is underway.

That seems no different than any of the shotgun options, whether OSU, MSU or Clemson for instance. The QB always touches the ball first. Johnson's spread, however, with its Abacks set in tight to the tackles and the B back so close to the LOS he could fall into it, gets at a defense much quicker and for that initial burst, faster, and forces defenses to do something they do not like to do: make an instant decision. Conversely, while a QB like Watson has the luxury, as it were, of reading room and time and a two-three step drift looking for weaknesses, Thomas has less than a second to make his first decision . I think that's what opposing coaches mean afterwards when they talk about not being able to practice against such speed: Tech's backs are top of them the split second the play starts. Read/zone options not so much.

 

[cuttysark]

@Skeptic:

That's is right on the $$$. The spread shotgun is hobbled badly on short yardage plays or the closer it gets to the goal line. You are creating another defender by snapping the football to the QB seven yards behind the LOS. That makes no sense when you are on the two yard line and the QB starts the play at the nine or ten yard line in short yardage.

Having a QB under center is a huge advantage especially inside the ten yard line. I believe South Carolina a few years ago lost to the Mutts when they were stopped a few times on the goal line out of the shotgun spread. Apparently they never practice a traditional center/QB snap.

 

[Boomergump]

@Skeptic:

That's is right on the $$$. The spread shotgun is hobbled badly on short yardage plays or the closer it gets to the goal line. You are creating another defender by snapping the football to the QB seven yards behind the LOS. That makes no sense when you are on the two yard line and the QB starts the play at the nine or ten yard line in short yardage.

Having a QB under center is a huge advantage especially inside the ten yard line. I believe South Carolina a few years ago lost to the Mutts when they were stopped a few times on the goal line out of the shotgun spread. Apparently they never practice a traditional center/QB snap.

This. I see that over and over and over, pistol / shotgun teams getting stymied by run blitzes inside the 5. It makes no sense.

 

[Legal Jacket]

I agree on a called pass play we are trying to do that. But on our bread and butter option plays (60-70%?), it goes to the guy who the D isn't covering. The best thing is that as our talent level is going up overall, our chain has stronger weak links. Kind of like @DC Bee fixed it for me.

I think we are probably in agreement. I agree that when we run the TO we don't try to get the ball in the hands of anybody in particular (we may have someone we'd prefer to run the ball, but we are playing off what the defense does). That's only about 10% of the plays we run. We do a lot of direct handoffs to the BB - that's why they typically lead the team in carries (see, e.g., game against Miss St). We also run a lot of dedicated plays to the ABs, like rocket tosses, counters, etc. When we've had studs like Orwin we've found ways to get them the ball more often, especially when the BBs weren't as good. With QBs we can run designed keepers and favor the midline (as opposed to TO) to get them the ball.

 

[Sideways]

I fixed it.

1) Play bend and don't break and pray to God GT turns over the ball like it did in 2010. If not, the D has to be spread out to at least limit the plays to 4 or 5 yards a play, hoping GT hogs the ball offensively for 40 minutes a game to keep the final score down a lessen the external perception of a total beat down.

2) Defend the run from the inside out, so you only get burned on the corners.

3) Force the QB to keep the ball next. It's better to get burned by one Heisman trophy candidate than a cadre of players, the latter of which makes the entire defensive scheme look inept.

4) Defend the pitch next, because they say that assignment defense always beats the option

5) Give up the short passes because they say that GT has no deep threat

I fixed it.

1) Play bend and don't break and pray to God GT turns over the ball like it did in 2010. If not, the D has to be spread out to at least limit the plays to 4 or 5 yards a play, hoping GT hogs the ball offensively for 40 minutes a game to keep the final score down a lessen the external perception of a total beat down.

2) Defend the run from the inside out, so you only get burned on the corners.

3) Force the QB to keep the ball next. It's better to get burned by one Heisman trophy candidate than a cadre of players, the latter of which makes the entire defensive scheme look inept.

4) Defend the pitch next, because they say that assignment defense always beats the option

5) Give up the short passes because they say that GT has no deep threat

Interesting thoughts: Miami shut down Oklahoma's wishbone by using the deep middle linebacker with two outside linebackers lined up just off the defensive end. We saw this alignment this past season but Perriman just did not have enough help. Some will recall Sean Spence (spelling?) being very effective against us a few years ago in a similar set. Burden had great success getting to Perriman and that set up the dive plays nicely. The spread works by freezing the linebackers for just a moment. It's great for teams that prefer finesse like UNC. Personally, I like our version better because the linemen do not have to hold their blocks as long. The Bback is hitting that gap so quickly that it wears defenses down. Also, I like the counter trap we run off of our version and the fact that the fakes create hesitation on the part of the linebackers. How to stop our version of the spread? Penetration by tackles and bringing those safeties up in run support. Yes, I know it leads to big plays passing but if I am a defensive coordinator facing Georgia Tech I would rather take some chances. Some advocate playing assignment defense which is all well and good but Johnson is so good at adjustments that it is difficult to mix and match assignments often enough. Want to beat Georgia Tech? Get the lead and force JT to beat you passing the ball. Just my layman's two cents.

 

[AE 87]

The reason cpj calls his offense the spread option is that he combines the option concepts to the advantages of the spread for rushing attacks. This article is talking about what cpj has been doing for 30 years as if it's new.

 

[PBR549]

The reason cpj calls his offense the spread option is that he combines the option concepts to the advantages of the spread for rushing attacks. This article is talking about what cpj has been doing for 30 years as if it's new.

You are right AE. The difference is out of the shotgun spread most of the blocking is zone schemes. The wishbone (CPJs spread) uses drive blocking, cut blocking and combo blocking. As far as the numbers game both attack where there is a numerical or angle advantage. People are much more proficient defensively at stoping the shotgun spread zone read type option because they see that so much more now and it's usually a double option. It's like anything else you get good at what you rep. The angles defenders have to take and the discipline they have to have to stop us just aren't repped enough to get the job done even if the coaches have a great scheme. Seriously the best way to slow down our offense is to have a lot better people than we do.

 

[vamosjackets]

@vamosjackets , thanks for a good article. You asked how should other teams defend us.

This article talked about how spread offenses enabled higher rushing yardage by spreading out the D. And it also talked about how teams didn't have the power running game. It seems to me that lining up under center and the BB dive is the power game. Especially when it's run again and again till the other team stops it. So do we have a spread power game?

Also CPJ has a very different overall philosophy, I think than this ""At the end of the day, you're trying to put the ball in the hands of the best player on your team," Addazio said. "

Yes it's true we want the ball in the hands of the best player, but first and foremost we want to get the ball to the player who is open, not the best player who is covered. CPJ has said many times that the ball goes to the player who is in the best position to get yardage.

So how to defend?
1) Play bend and don't break. Have us turn over the ball like we did in 2010 (and didn't do as much in 2014). So the D has to be spread out and limit the plays to 4 or 5 yards a play, hoping we make a mistake.
2) Defend the run from the inside out.
3) Force the QB to keep the ball next. Increases the chance of injuring the QB or more likely making him less effective due to fatigue as well as forcing him to pitch (more likely turnover).
4) Defend the pitch next, leaving the pass as the last option.
5) Give up the short passes so that there are more plays and more chance of turnover.

So @vamosjackets , what D is the best to do these 5 things in the order of priority? As with ANY offense, if the offense can execute it's basic concept, the defense will lose. But offensive discipline breaks down and the defense takes advantage.......

One last thought: While speed kills, bludgeoning the D with the same play is far more satisfying to me. No mercy.

Yeah, good points.

But, it's really simple ... just about numbers. It's always about how to get more of your guys than theirs at the point of attack. That's always how offensive and defensive coordinators are thinking at its most basic level. That's why I like Addazio's basic premise. Playing cover 4 can effectively give you 9 in the box instead of 8, so you're already starting with 1 more guy against the run than most other alignments. There's lots of ways to do this ... you can roll the safety who's on the backside to the deep 3rd - giving you a cover 3 while the safety on the play side is filling the alley giving you the extra defender on the play side, but counters can mess with this. You can also incorporate man-coverage in there for the safety who ends up on the backside of the play, which is probably a better solution many times. Tenuta would play cover 4 pretty often against strong running teams (when he wasn't running some sort of zone-dog run blitz). He's also play cover 6 - which was cover 4 on one side and cover 2 on the other - I don't fully grasp this one, but I think this was for when there was a particular WR who required extra attention or when there were certain offensive schemes with 2-man route combinations ... again, I just never quite learned what this one was about, just know that it was some combination of cover 2 and 4.

Cover 2 could also accomplish the same thing, but then you're asking your safeties to be the primary cover guys and your corners to be the primary run support guys, which doesn't best fit the personnel of most teams.

I think Roof is doing some interesting things against spread teams with the 4-2-5. And, it's highly likely he's implementing some cover 4 principles with his 2 safety alignment. And, that extra DB on the field also gives you more flexibility. I admit shamefully that I haven't studied enough film of our defense to fully understand what we do.

When I made the post, I wasn't really thinking about our offense as much as I was thinking about other spread option offenses. I agree with you, our power running game is definitely a big part of our success with the BB and heavy drive blocking OL, and even the midline. We even ran an Iso play in the Orange bowl, and could do that anytime we want.

Our offense is going to outnumber the defense. It's just a matter of how bad you're going to get beat on a particular play, unless you've just got horses that can't be blocked. If I was defending us, I would do what Foster does ... take lots of chances. I'd do some guessing and send more people than there are blockers to what I thought would be the playside sometimes just to try to cause a big defensive play and get the offense off its schedule. I would especially do this on a 3rd/4th and short, because then the offense doesn't have another play to make up for it if it's successful. This defense would be particularly susceptible to giving up a big play when guessing wrong, and so one of my coaching points would be to give up ground and limit the big play if we're wrong - just give up 20 yards instead of a 60 yd TD. CPJ's playcalling abilities are a big asset, and I'm sure he'd eat my lunch. But, it would be a cool challenge.

 

[OldJacketFan]

Yeah, good points.

But, it's really simple ... just about numbers. It's always about how to get more of your guys than theirs at the point of attack. That's always how offensive and defensive coordinators are thinking at its most basic level. That's why I like Addazio's basic premise. Playing cover 4 can effectively give you 9 in the box instead of 8, so you're already starting with 1 more guy against the run than most other alignments. There's lots of ways to do this ... you can roll the safety who's on the backside to the deep 3rd - giving you a cover 3 while the safety on the play side is filling the alley giving you the extra defender on the play side, but counters can mess with this. You can also incorporate man-coverage in there for the safety who ends up on the backside of the play, which is probably a better solution many times. Tenuta would play cover 4 pretty often against strong running teams (when he wasn't running some sort of zone-dog run blitz). He's also play cover 6 - which was cover 4 on one side and cover 2 on the other - I don't fully grasp this one, but I think this was for when there was a particular WR who required extra attention or when there were certain offensive schemes with 2-man route combinations ... again, I just never quite learned what this one was about, just know that it was some combination of cover 2 and 4.

Cover 2 could also accomplish the same thing, but then you're asking your safeties to be the primary cover guys and your corners to be the primary run support guys, which doesn't best fit the personnel of most teams.

I think Roof is doing some interesting things against spread teams with the 4-2-5. And, it's highly likely he's implementing some cover 4 principles with his 2 safety alignment. And, that extra DB on the field also gives you more flexibility. I admit shamefully that I haven't studied enough film of our defense to fully understand what we do.

When I made the post, I wasn't really thinking about our offense as much as I was thinking about other spread option offenses. I agree with you, our power running game is definitely a big part of our success with the BB and heavy drive blocking OL, and even the midline. We even ran an Iso play in the Orange bowl, and could do that anytime we want.

Our offense is going to outnumber the defense. It's just a matter of how bad you're going to get beat on a particular play, unless you've just got horses that can't be blocked. If I was defending us, I would do what Foster does ... take lots of chances. I'd do some guessing and send more people than there are blockers to what I thought would be the playside sometimes just to try to cause a big defensive play and get the offense off its schedule. I would especially do this on a 3rd/4th and short, because then the offense doesn't have another play to make up for it if it's successful. This defense would be particularly susceptible to giving up a big play when guessing wrong, and so one of my coaching points would be to give up ground and limit the big play if we're wrong - just give up 20 yards instead of a 60 yd TD. CPJ's playcalling abilities are a big asset, and I'm sure he'd eat my lunch. But, it would be a cool challenge.

Vamos you've taken what I've been looking at for a long time on how to defense CPJ's offense. I can't see sitting back in any base set and being overly successful unless you just have better athletes man vs man. Even then you're still going to get hit with big plays on occasion. Even Tenuta's pressure schemes are susceptible, as you point out, to counter action/motion. I've said for a very long time if this offense is run properly and with the proper personnel a defense (don't care whose) is in for a very long day!