I’m more worried about ..

[THWG16]

EDIT, messed up TN was not < 6 points. But the point here is I think we're going to continue to gel and get better. And most importantly, 7 of the next 8 games are AT HOME.

Northwestern isn’t good

 

[Deleted member 2897]

Northwestern isn’t good

Until they start losing a bunch of games, and as long as their ranking stays where it is, the data says differently.

 

[THWG16]

We’re GT!! Northwestern has been to the ncaa tourney once in school history !! We gotta be better than this

 

[CuseJacket]

This is an interesting thread to reflect on, now that we're in Year 3.

https://gtswarm.com/threads/what-is-your-definition-of-success-for-the-next-3-years.9466/

 

[Peacone36]

This is an interesting thread to reflect on, now that we're in Year 3.

https://gtswarm.com/threads/what-is-your-definition-of-success-for-the-next-3-years.9466/

No wonder everyone is pissy. Have yet to really meet anyone’s hopes and dreams

 

[AE 87]

No wonder everyone is pissy. Have yet to really meet anyone’s hopes and dreams

Including what CPast said about his own recruiting expectations for the 2019 class

 

[GTHomer]

This is an interesting thread to reflect on, now that we're in Year 3.

https://gtswarm.com/threads/what-is-your-definition-of-success-for-the-next-3-years.9466/

A good reminder of what expectations were. I'd hoped that recruiting would have gone better by his 3rd full recruiting class but I do see a much better product on the floor. The young players need time to build chemistry and I believe they will surprise several teams after the New Year. I also think Moore will be a BIG surprise as the season progresses, assuming he remains in the rotation.

 

[lv20gt]

No wonder everyone is pissy. Have yet to really meet anyone’s hopes and dreams

This is what I had posted.

ear 1 - success has little to do with wins and losses. All about how well he can get the guys to do what he wants them to and how well he can recruit. Obviously if he pulls out a late season miracle and drastically improves the talent level overnight then this changes but if he does that then he's already exceeding expectations.
Year 2 - improvement in terms of record over year 1. Did he address the issues that were wrong with the previous year, both in terms of recruiting to what the team lacked as well as better utilizing the players as he became more familiar with them. Competitive in the ACC, but this very well could be relying on a lot of young players from his first class.
Year 3. This somewhat depends. If he can bring in a PG recruit for this class, Moore maybe, then this should be an NCAAT year. If Moore sticks with memphis, and we have to wait until next year to land a PG, then NIT with an upward outlook, as opposed to the downward one of this year.

Year 4 is the year I look at as the year that is the latest we could make the NCAAT and the hire to be a success. That would put his first real class as juniors, and a solid class, as long as it stays together, as seniors.

So by my own words year 1 was a resounding success. Year 2 wasn't a success overall but part of that had to do with unforseen issues (injuries and the DLab situation). Year 3 I think we are about on track. Would feel more comfortable if we had won the ST. John's game but I feel good that once we get more game at home we'll see better results.

 

[RamblinRed]

I must have posted in a thread on a different forum but here were my expectations for Pastner's program after he was hired and had his initial PC.

Yr 1 - 8-10 wins (obviously greatly exceeded this)
Yr 2 - 13-15 wins (we hit the very low end)
Yr 3 - 16-18 wins, potential NIT team - we'll see how this year plays out
Yr 4 - 18-20 wins, bubble NIT team, very strong NIT team if fails to make NCAA
Yr 5 - 20+ wins and NCAA.

Knowing from the get go that he was going to get 5 yrs and that his plan was to build a program without shortcuts (not relying on alot of transfers), any building was going to be slow and yrs 1-3 were basically going to be whatever we got. But the payoff had to come in yrs 4 and 5 as he got his players in the program and they had a chance to develop and gain experience.

This year's recruiting results are a huge disappointment to this point but i'm not going to go off the deep end when over 50% of our min are going to FR and SO so this was always likely to be a transition year.

The biggest needs going forward from a recruiting standpoint are getting a strong post prospect and a good (4star) combo forward type. Any upgrade at guard is good to, but i'm actually not overly worried about that right now.

 

[New Old Guy]

I think all of us have been disappointed in recruiting results, especially this year (so far). It is positive that we have come close on several top kids — prospects that would not have even included us as a finalist in the last few years. But coming close is obviously not good enough. We have to land some of these top prospects.

I do not agree with the severe “doom and gloom” outlook expressed by some posters, however, for two reasons. First, this year is far from over. Our coaches are still very focused on finding talent for next year, and they are casting a wide net. They are actively evaluating a number of players that none of us are even aware of.

Secondly, this team is going to be noticibly better next year EVEN IF WE DO NOT SIGN ANYONE ELSE. Think about it — Jose as a junior and Mike Devoe with a year experience (because of his injury, Michael is just beginning to learn what’s going on). James with another year of Coach Rev tutoring. Evan and Moses as more experienced, stronger Juniors. Khalid beginning to realize his potential, and a stronger Kristian. Shembari and Curtis finding their rhythm (and their shots).

We could be a very good team by February/March, and certainly by next Fall. I know I tend to be optimistic, but I believe we are on the right track, and we have a bright future, either later this year or next.

Having said all that, the loss to St. John’s was awful. I’m sure it looked gruesome on TV, but in person their fans were especially distasteful.

 

[slugboy]

I said I was being really optimistic in that “definition of success” thread. It was a bold definition. We’re short of it. I expected to be short, but not this short. We haven’t recruited as well as I defined success. We needed to get a real stand out player, and we haven’t recruited that game changer yet.

We’re improving, but not fast. Even in get old, stay old, we either have to get or develop solid front court play or outside snipers, or both.

Maybe some of our guys can develop into those players. Not there yet.

I guess the thing that worries me is that we’ve picked a style of play that doesn’t suit our talent. Yes, our backcourt players are the strength of our team, but we aren’t a 3 point shooting team, and we’re in outside shooting sets. Maybe a slashing style would work better.

Some of y’all are shrewder basketball fans than me.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[YlJacket]

I guess the thing that worries me is that we’ve picked a style of play that doesn’t suit our talent. Yes, our backcourt players are the strength of our team, but we aren’t a 3 point shooting team, and we’re in outside shooting sets. Maybe a slashing style would work better.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

I went back and rewatched the St Johns game and between my first impressions and a little more intense viewing of the last game, I am more and more convinced that the style of offense doesn't match our talent or development stage of our talent. We may grow into it but we have some work to do.

We run 2 basic offensive sets against man - first is the same modified Princeton high post set we ran last year and the other is a basic 4 out spacing driven set. For the Princeton set, neither Banks or AD are really comfortable handling the ball at the high post area. Nor are they comfortable or really adept at carving out space at the foul line. That was something that Lammers was really good at – he could time the cut and had a way of creating space to allow the pass to him to start the offense. St Johns was really good at taking that away and crowding Banks in particular out of where he wanted the ball. Beyond that we did not cut well – or violently as CJP likes to comment. This was crucial as St Johns was aggressively overplaying everything and the way to beat that is with cuts and passes. There were a couple of examples of nice cuts but in general they were simply “OK time to move” cuts.

This Princeton system is a reasonable system for beating that kind of aggressive overplaying defense but the cuts have to be violent and most of all you have to have a very good passer at the high post which we don’t. Banks may evolve into that role but he isn’t there yet.

The 4 out system we run is more direct in the mismatch of talent to system. The core of this system is spacing – which we generally do a good job of – with the goal of putting players in space to make moves on their defenders. We use ball movement or penetration to get the offense initiated and the defense to double getting open shots or driving lanes. The 5 plays low to stay out of the way to start and about half way through the shot clock will come high to set a ball screen if things are bogging down. In general there is minimal use of picks or structured motion to create shots or drives.

Right now we have really one player – Alvarado – who can consistently break down a legit defender. Haywood is a pure catch and shoot guy. Alston and Philips are high risk when they try to break someone down. Devoe is just not there yet. You can see his handle but even against a over aggressive St Johns defense he couldn’t overcome aggressive close outs or defense. Yet.

At the 4 spot – Moses should not be playing this offense. He cannot drive when guarded by a small ball team (maybe against a double post UNC or UVA but I doubt it). And he really is not a shooter outside of 15’ or so. Moore is much more suitable for this offense and IMHO should start if we are going to stay 4 out.

The other dynamic that hurt us a lot more than I realized watching the game live, is that Banks doesn’t hold his position on the block well at all. I don’t know if he isn’t strong enough or simply not mean enough – but he got pushed 2 steps out routinely. Someone else pointed this out and it really was the difference in the game. Conversely, he was much better when he was rolling to the basket and looking to rebound. He also was wide open 3 or 4 times and we didn’t look at him – but the key is he needs to be moving and not just trying to set on the block.

If we are going to run this 4 out system we need to start Moore and at minimum have Banks be much more aggressive in setting ball screens. Get better at hitting the roll guy. We also need to have back side screening action to get Haywood, Devoe and Alston catch and shoot opportunities. These are tweaks that are not that hard but need to be put in.

If we are going to start Moses we need to go 3 out and have him and Banks focus on getting the other 3 catch and shoot opportunities. Moses could thrive in that system and it would be a lot of the same for Banks as above.

This is way too long so I apologize. And it isn’t to diminish what has also been said – we do play good defense and have a culture of defense. With Lammers leaving I thought it would go away and I was wrong. Credit to CJP for that. On offense you can see what he is trying to do but he doesn’t have the pieces yet so I think he needs to give them more help than he has so far.

 

[slugboy]

I used to really enjoy watching the Budenholzer coached Hawks run the screen->catch->shoot with Korver. That might help Haywood and Alvarado, and possibly other players, and it's fun to watch.

With Alvarado, I think he has in his head that he needs to be Kobe Bryant at the end of the half, and maybe he turns into that player, but for right now I really like Magic Johnson--pass really well, take some shots, and make everyone around you better.

 

[YlJacket]

I used to really enjoy watching the Budenholzer coached Hawks run the screen->catch->shoot with Korver. That might help Haywood and Alvarado, and possibly other players, and it's fun to watch.

With Alvarado, I think he has in his head that he needs to be Kobe Bryant at the end of the half, and maybe he turns into that player, but for right now I really like Magic Johnson--pass really well, take some shots, and make everyone around you better.

Any team with Korver is a good example for setting catch and shoot opportunities. FWIW UVA does it really well with Guy as well but they are a 3 out system.

I would not go too far with the Jose - Kobe type of comparison. 2 factors - first is Ponds was a guy he played in the playgrounds and will see at Christmas so it became personal. I take that as a one off. The second comes back to scheme and he knows he is the only person who can penetrate so he takes that on himself. You see it with Alston as well. That is why I want to see them look at other ways to initiate an offense and get catch and shoot opportunities in system. That would help that dynamic immediately.

 

[MiracleWhips]

I went back and rewatched the St Johns game and between my first impressions and a little more intense viewing of the last game, I am more and more convinced that the style of offense doesn't match our talent or development stage of our talent. We may grow into it but we have some work to do.

We run 2 basic offensive sets against man - first is the same modified Princeton high post set we ran last year and the other is a basic 4 out spacing driven set. For the Princeton set, neither Banks or AD are really comfortable handling the ball at the high post area. Nor are they comfortable or really adept at carving out space at the foul line. That was something that Lammers was really good at – he could time the cut and had a way of creating space to allow the pass to him to start the offense. St Johns was really good at taking that away and crowding Banks in particular out of where he wanted the ball. Beyond that we did not cut well – or violently as CJP likes to comment. This was crucial as St Johns was aggressively overplaying everything and the way to beat that is with cuts and passes. There were a couple of examples of nice cuts but in general they were simply “OK time to move” cuts.

This Princeton system is a reasonable system for beating that kind of aggressive overplaying defense but the cuts have to be violent and most of all you have to have a very good passer at the high post which we don’t. Banks may evolve into that role but he isn’t there yet.

The 4 out system we run is more direct in the mismatch of talent to system. The core of this system is spacing – which we generally do a good job of – with the goal of putting players in space to make moves on their defenders. We use ball movement or penetration to get the offense initiated and the defense to double getting open shots or driving lanes. The 5 plays low to stay out of the way to start and about half way through the shot clock will come high to set a ball screen if things are bogging down. In general there is minimal use of picks or structured motion to create shots or drives.

Right now we have really one player – Alvarado – who can consistently break down a legit defender. Haywood is a pure catch and shoot guy. Alston and Philips are high risk when they try to break someone down. Devoe is just not there yet. You can see his handle but even against a over aggressive St Johns defense he couldn’t overcome aggressive close outs or defense. Yet.

At the 4 spot – Moses should not be playing this offense. He cannot drive when guarded by a small ball team (maybe against a double post UNC or UVA but I doubt it). And he really is not a shooter outside of 15’ or so. Moore is much more suitable for this offense and IMHO should start if we are going to stay 4 out.

The other dynamic that hurt us a lot more than I realized watching the game live, is that Banks doesn’t hold his position on the block well at all. I don’t know if he isn’t strong enough or simply not mean enough – but he got pushed 2 steps out routinely. Someone else pointed this out and it really was the difference in the game. Conversely, he was much better when he was rolling to the basket and looking to rebound. He also was wide open 3 or 4 times and we didn’t look at him – but the key is he needs to be moving and not just trying to set on the block.

If we are going to run this 4 out system we need to start Moore and at minimum have Banks be much more aggressive in setting ball screens. Get better at hitting the roll guy. We also need to have back side screening action to get Haywood, Devoe and Alston catch and shoot opportunities. These are tweaks that are not that hard but need to be put in.

If we are going to start Moses we need to go 3 out and have him and Banks focus on getting the other 3 catch and shoot opportunities. Moses could thrive in that system and it would be a lot of the same for Banks as above.

This is way too long so I apologize. And it isn’t to diminish what has also been said – we do play good defense and have a culture of defense. With Lammers leaving I thought it would go away and I was wrong. Credit to CJP for that. On offense you can see what he is trying to do but he doesn’t have the pieces yet so I think he needs to give them more help than he has so far.

Well said, I also agree that we need to move to a 3 out offense. Hopefully that will be the adjustment after the Christmas break