how does our overall team speed compare?

[Bennett]

Two possible answers:

(1) Speed is a marketing ploy used by ESPN and the sec and overlooks the fact that at the top level in college all teams have speed and the difference is minimal given the fact that most football plays of consequence do not use 100 yards or even 50 yards. (As an example of that last point, Dwyer was more quick than fast and he would have been caught from behind on many plays if the yards to go for a touchdown had been longer).

(2) Speed is a real thing that only a few good teams and good conferences possess. In which case Tech is one of the fastest teams in the country as evidenced by how slow Clemson, uga and missy state looked against Tech.

I took your response seriously till I read the part about Dwyer getting caught from behind

 

[SidewalkJacket]

As an example of that last point, Dwyer was more quick than fast and he would have been caught from behind on many plays if the yards to go for a touchdown had been longer).

Tough to agree with you on that one.

 

[Fatmike91]

Now, if only Johnson could figure a way to run that fly sweep from under center, those A backs would be flying at the corner and we'd see all of that sprint champion speed. (I don't like gimmicks but it might be a hoot to see Thomas back out of there on one play and have Snoddy flying across in front of him for the pitch. Johnson would not really be getting out of his offense and we'd need a stopwatch on Snoddy at the edge.

We have a very similar play called "rocket toss". We run it (a lot) and I'd argue we get to the edge quicker than that fly sweep.

/

 

[IronJacket7]

Dwyer had an Extra Gear. End of discussion.

 

[Oldgoldandwhite]

Not caught up with NC, Miami, or Fla St but comparable with UGA.....mostly defense issue.

I would say the issue with those teams are on the DL. Most experts will argue that the difference in Big Boy football is the DL.

 

[Boomergump]

I will give my response to the speed question this way: by position group using the 2014 players, expressing where I feel they fit as a percentile of national contenders at the FBS level.

OL - 95th percentile
QB - 98th percentile
WR - 50th percentile
RB (hard to compare because of our offensive gameplan, so I will lump BBs and ABs together aganst other teams RBs)- BBs 40th percentile, ABs 75th percentile.
DL - 50th percentile
LBs - 50th percentile
CBs - 90th percentile
S - 50th percentile

Synopsis: in no way were we considered slow footed as a team. We had great speed in places, namely QB, AB, and CB. Normally, one wouldn't equate OL speed with being important, but I beg to differ given our style of offense. Our OLs are fast and they get downfield.

 

[Skeptic]

We have a very similar play called "rocket toss". We run it (a lot) and I'd argue we get to the edge quicker than that fly sweep.

/

Oh, I am very familiar with it. And the speed to the edge is no contest: we lose. And not by a little. Our trailing guy is governed by the QB and runs under control to make certain he catches the ball, which on the ground is a fumble. Go to YouTube and find the 2012 OB segment with WV running it. Don't even need a stop watch. Do the one Mississippi thing until their back turns downfield. Then go to your VCR and find any of our tosses and do the same. Sorry, but the fact is our toss does not come up to speed until the back , running with his shoulders turned back, has caught the lateral. Stitt's is full speed with the 3rd or 4th step, flying past the QB, and if they drop the short pitch, so what? Incomplete pass. I am not being critical of our offense. Just noting the School of Mines and Stitt found a faster way with their offense, which is out of the shotgun. Try counting it off. Better if you have a stopwatch. Enough to say Clemson has some difficulty with out toss, but could not handle the fly sweep at all, ever. Thus 70 points and counting and a QB who threw a total of 4-5 yards in the air and got credit for four touchdown passes and all the yardage the running backs got. (And if you think that is funky, check out some of Montana's pass routes.)

 

[croberts]

I will give my response to the speed question this way: by position group using the 2014 players, expressing where I feel they fit as a percentile of national contenders at the FBS level.

OL - 95th percentile
QB - 98th percentile
WR - 50th percentile
RB (hard to compare because of our offensive gameplan, so I will lump BBs and ABs together aganst other teams RBs)- BBs 40th percentile, ABs 75th percentile.
DL - 50th percentile
LBs - 50th percentile
CBs - 90th percentile
S - 50th percentile

Synopsis: in no way were we considered slow footed as a team. We had great speed in places, namely QB, AB, and CB. Normally, one wouldn't equate OL speed with being important, but I beg to differ given our style of offense. Our OLs are fast and they get downfield.

I like your breakdown and would agree that the speed of our offensive linemen is so important, and they can motor. This is also one of the things that makes us so different. Speed at the OLs is a premium for us but not nearly as important for other team. The only position group that I might argue is our corners. Not because I don't think they are fast, but because it is one of the fastest groups in all of FBS. I would say more like in the top 60% . Just as soon as I type this in, I have a flashback of D.J. running down Conner at Pitt and see Milton Flash down the sideline and out of BDS with broken hearts all over Lake Hartwell. Let Me adjust to 75%!!!

 

[zhavenor]

Oh, I am very familiar with it. And the speed to the edge is no contest: we lose. And not by a little. Our trailing guy is governed by the QB and runs under control to make certain he catches the ball, which on the ground is a fumble. Go to YouTube and find the 2012 OB segment with WV running it. Don't even need a stop watch. Do the one Mississippi thing until their back turns downfield. Then go to your VCR and find any of our tosses and do the same. Sorry, but the fact is our toss does not come up to speed until the back , running with his shoulders turned back, has caught the lateral. Stitt's is full speed with the 3rd or 4th step, flying past the QB, and if they drop the short pitch, so what? Incomplete pass. I am not being critical of our offense. Just noting the School of Mines and Stitt found a faster way with their offense, which is out of the shotgun. Try counting it off. Better if you have a stopwatch. Enough to say Clemson has some difficulty with out toss, but could not handle the fly sweep at all, ever. Thus 70 points and counting and a QB who threw a total of 4-5 yards in the air and got credit for four touchdown passes and all the yardage the running backs got. (And if you think that is funky, check out some of Montana's pass routes.)

The problem is jet motion does not in any way approximate our regular motion and there for offers no help to our triple option play. Rocket motion is to stop #3 from getting their hands on our tackles on their release up field or from the defense blitzing a linebacker on play side. It's a play that makes the defense honest with our option. Jet motion, rip or liz in our offense, is a play we use for passing or speed option to the b back. The core of most of our plays is to make the defense play the triple honestly.

 

[Skeptic]

The problem is jet motion does not in any way approximate our regular motion and there for offers no help to our triple option play. Rocket motion is to stop #3 from getting their hands on our tackles on their release up field or from the defense blitzing a linebacker on play side. It's a play that makes the defense honest with our option. Jet motion, rip or liz in our offense, is a play we use for passing or speed option to the b back. The core of most of our plays is to make the defense play the triple honestly.

Trust me, I have no desire to change the offense. Just think that is a neat play that is different without being a gimmick or trick play: a coach found a way to get maximum play speed quicker with zero risk.

 

[Northeast Stinger]

Dwyer had an Extra Gear. End of discussion.

Well, I have no need to martyr myself on the cause because it is clear everyone will disagree with me but my point was that Dwyer was very quick. He hit his top gear almost instantly and he could cut while doing that. He was a consummate B-back.

But my point about his overall speed was that the play usually broke so fast, and he hit his top gear so quickly, that players were usually turning around to try to catch him, did not have an angle, or were not able to hit their top speed before he was in the end zone. I think the reason he was caught from behind so often in the pros was not just that he was up against faster players, it was because the plays run in the pros did not put defenders out of position, turning on their heels, or suddenly trying to hit their top gear when he was already at his top gear with a two or three yard head start.

One of the things I like most about our offense is that if the play breaks fairly cleanly at the line of scrimmage there usually are not a lot of people left to gang tackle or slow a runner down while other people close on the play. Watch Lucas Cox against Miami (1:24:28) in 2008. I would estimate that there are at least four defenders who are faster than him being out run because by the time they see the play it is already too late for them to catch up. That is what makes me so excited about this offense now that we are adding elite speed to it.


Anyway, I am over explaining because, even though people are free to disagree with me, I want to make sure they are disagreeing with what I am saying, not disagreeing with something I was not saying. I never said Dwyer was slow. And I never said he was caught from behind in college. I was implying that in a different kind of offense he would be more likely to be caught from behind. He had an entirely different kind of performance in the pros running out of a different offense.

 

[dressedcheeseside]

I think the reason he(Dwyer) was caught from behind so often in the pros was not just that he was up against faster players, it was because the plays run in the pros did not put defenders out of position, turning on their heels, or suddenly trying to hit their top gear when he was already at his top gear with a two or three yard head start.

I agree with this, but it is only part of the answer. He was heavier and slower in the pros than he was in 2008. Being a step faster than your opponent goes a long way in football. Lose that step and you're just another guy.

 

[SidewalkJacket]

Well, I have no need to martyr myself on the cause because it is clear everyone will disagree with me but my point was that Dwyer was very quick. He hit his top gear almost instantly and he could cut while doing that. He was a consummate B-back.

But my point about his overall speed was that the play usually broke so fast, and he hit his top gear so quickly, that players were usually turning around to try to catch him, did not have an angle, or were not able to hit their top speed before he was in the end zone. I think the reason he was caught from behind so often in the pros was not just that he was up against faster players, it was because the plays run in the pros did not put defenders out of position, turning on their heels, or suddenly trying to hit their top gear when he was already at his top gear with a two or three yard head start.

One of the things I like most about our offense is that if the play breaks fairly cleanly at the line of scrimmage there usually are not a lot of people left to gang tackle or slow a runner down while other people close on the play. Watch Lucas Cox against Miami (1:24:28) in 2008. I would estimate that there are at least four defenders who are faster than him being out run because by the time they see the play it is already too late for them to catch up. That is what makes me so excited about this offense now that we are adding elite speed to it.


Anyway, I am over explaining because, even though people are free to disagree with me, I want to make sure they are disagreeing with what I am saying, not disagreeing with something I was not saying. I never said Dwyer was slow. And I never said he was caught from behind in college. I was implying that in a different kind of offense he would be more likely to be caught from behind. He had an entirely different kind of performance in the pros running out of a different offense.

I understand what you are actually saying, but I respectfully disagree. Dwyer's greatest strength, IMO, was not quickness/cuts, but his top end speed (especially for his size). You can't possibly compare '08/'09 Dwyer with what we saw in the NFL. He unfortunately became a shell of what he had been. I truly believe '08 Dwyer could have been a star in the NFL.

I do agree with you, however, that our O creates incredible running lanes and bad angles for the D. Great speed exploits this even more so.

 

[IronJacket7]

Well, I have no need to martyr myself on the cause because it is clear everyone will disagree with me but my point was that Dwyer was very quick. He hit his top gear almost instantly and he could cut while doing that. He was a consummate B-back.

But my point about his overall speed was that the play usually broke so fast, and he hit his top gear so quickly, that players were usually turning around to try to catch him, did not have an angle, or were not able to hit their top speed before he was in the end zone. I think the reason he was caught from behind so often in the pros was not just that he was up against faster players, it was because the plays run in the pros did not put defenders out of position, turning on their heels, or suddenly trying to hit their top gear when he was already at his top gear with a two or three yard head start.

One of the things I like most about our offense is that if the play breaks fairly cleanly at the line of scrimmage there usually are not a lot of people left to gang tackle or slow a runner down while other people close on the play. Watch Lucas Cox against Miami (1:24:28) in 2008. I would estimate that there are at least four defenders who are faster than him being out run because by the time they see the play it is already too late for them to catch up. That is what makes me so excited about this offense now that we are adding elite speed to it.


Anyway, I am over explaining because, even though people are free to disagree with me, I want to make sure they are disagreeing with what I am saying, not disagreeing with something I was not saying. I never said Dwyer was slow. And I never said he was caught from behind in college. I was implying that in a different kind of offense he would be more likely to be caught from behind. He had an entirely different kind of performance in the pros running out of a different offense.

No disagreement from me. Good post!

 

[dressedcheeseside]

I agree with this, but it is only part of the answer. He was heavier and slower in the pros than he was in 2008. Being a step faster than your opponent goes a long way in football. Lose that step and you're just another guy.

Just to add to what I said and to illustrate what you said about how our O creates favorable lanes and bad angles for the D:

This guy wasn't fast but look at this:

3:50

 

[Northeast Stinger]

Just to add to what I said and to illustrate what you said about how our O creates favorable lanes and bad angles for the D:

This guy wasn't fast but look at this:

3:50

That was what I thought I posted above.

 

[dressedcheeseside]

That was what I thought I posted above.

It was, I thought I'd illustrate it in video. I still think Dwyer lost a step from that year.

 

[Northeast Stinger]

I truly believe '08 Dwyer could have been a star in the NFL.

I think it would depend on how he was used. Pittsburgh ran him like a tailback which I do not think was a good system for him.

As for our difference of opinion I think it comes down to your feeling like his greatest attribute was his top end speed whereas I think his power, quick acceleration and ability to make cuts were his strengths. But I appreciate that you understood my opinion before disagreeing.

 

[33jacket]

Tough to agree with you on that one.

damn i forgot how fast he was. He beat that FSU DB flat out and he had the angle. Wow.

 

[Skeptic]

I understand what you are actually saying, but I respectfully disagree. Dwyer's greatest strength, IMO, was not quickness/cuts, but his top end speed (especially for his size). You can't possibly compare '08/'09 Dwyer with what we saw in the NFL. He unfortunately became a shell of what he had been. I truly believe '08 Dwyer could have been a star in the NFL.

I do agree with you, however, that our O creates incredible running lanes and bad angles for the D. Great speed exploits this even more so.

I gotta respectfully disagree with your respectful disagreement with Stinger. Until Thomas came along I thought Dwyer had the quickest lateral cuts I'd seen. You saw it several times in '08 and '09: burst through the line, hit the second level, then suddenly make that dazzling, almost 90-degree cut one way or the other -- generally right -- leave the defenders with bad angles, and outrun them from there. His pro career was a sad, other story, and -- I think -- it involved blocking and willingness to block -- he clearly objected to blocking at Tech -- pass receiving, all wrapped into the initial problem: being overweight at the camps leading up to the draft. That he could not do certain things well had nothing to do with the offense, but his dedication to getting better.