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Atomic Jacket

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I don't know anything about how to run a college football program but it seems to me that stability and continuity can be pretty important. So I wouldn't say it's lack of confidence just a pro/con thing. That's a really bad analogy.

Continuity for its own sake is not necessarily a good thing. Many schools have rotated through coaches in quick succession before landing on a winner. I think the key is flexibility and nimbleness. A school needs to be sure not to lock itself into a position where it cannot afford to change, where it has to accept mediocrity because it has no other choice.
 

Squints

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Continuity for its own sake is not necessarily a good thing. Many schools have rotated through coaches in quick succession before landing on a winner. I think the key is flexibility and nimbleness. A school needs to be sure not to lock itself into a position where it cannot afford to change, where it has to accept mediocrity because it has no other choice.

I never said it was a good thing. I was simply offering a possible, and legitimate, alternative philosophy to the issue rather than "embracing of mediocrity" that's become a way to label and marginalize those you disagree with. It's not as black and white as some on here make it seem.
 

dressedcheeseside

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Let's stop with the Hill decides things for the Athletic Department. They don't. The only thing the Hill does is makes sure our athletes meet certain academic criterias and out Ath. Dept. follows university rules. They don't hire coaches, or fire coaches, unless the coaches embarass the school.

Second, I'm not calling for CPJ's head, but I do want him to do better because that means GT is doing better. CPJ is a very good coach when he has the talent. I believe 6 years is long enough to know what direction a coach's program is going. We can't afford to find a new coach right now? That's fine...but let's call a spade a spade and not sugarcoat why a coach is afforded another opportunity.

Third, I will never buy that GT should not try to improve their situation because the next guy might do too well and have other schools go after him. I'll take 3-5 years of high success and a successful coach moving on. You can't be great if you don't aspire to be. To me, it's like turning down a date with a beautiful girl because a person is afraid that another guy will eventually take her away. I believe GT fans should have more self confidence than that.
1. CPJ is the 30th highest paid head coach in college football.
2. There is no one to one correlation between head coach salary and expected team ranking, imo. If the playing field was perfectly level, then yes, I'd think that. But it's not, not by a long shot. Achieving results is much easier at a Bammer or tOSU than GT, I have no idea on what magnitude, but lets be conservative and say 4 times. By that measure, you'd have to pay a GT head coach 20 mil/year to expect the same results as you would Nick Saben at Bammer. (5 mil/yr x 4)

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/college/salaries/

ps. If you think we're over paying our coach for his results, what do you think Tennessee fans must be thinking?
 

Atomic Jacket

Banned
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238
I never said it was a good thing. I was simply offering a possible, and legitimate, alternative philosophy to the issue rather than "embracing of mediocrity" that's become a way to label and marginalize those you disagree with. It's not as black and white as some on here make it seem.

I don't think anyone embraces mediocrity. But some schools put themselves into a position in which they have no other choice financially but to accept mediocrity. That's the situation that a school should avoid.
 

Techster

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1. CPJ is the 30th highest paid head coach in college football.
2. There is no one to one correlation between head coach salary and expected team ranking, imo. If the playing field was perfectly level, then yes, I'd think that. But it's not, not by a long shot. Achieving results is much easier at a Bammer or tOSU than GT, I have no idea on what magnitude, but lets be conservative and say 4 times. By that measure, you'd have to pay a GT head coach 20 mil/year to expect the same results as you would Nick Saben at Bammer. (5 mil/yr x 4)

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/college/salaries/

ps. If you think we're over paying our coach for his results, what do you think Tennessee fans must be thinking?

The only time I care about other teams is when we play them.

I'm not going to make it about salary, because if we're going down that road it doesn't look good for CPJ that he's getting paid twice what Gailey did...and is getting the same results of the guy he replaced. GT is also one of the top spenders of when it comes to recruiting. So the resources are there for GT to do better than we have. I don't care if it's CPJ or the next guy after him.

I don't expect GT to be 'Bama or OSU or UGA or whatever factory anyone wants to throw out there. However, I do believe GT has every resource (money, facilities, recruiting region and academic prestige) to be better than 6-7, 8-5, 7-7, and 7-6 the past four years. Heck, I don't even mind a losing season and missing a bowl game if it meant we had a young and very talented team that was going through growing pains. The fact is the past four seasons seemed like we were going through one growing pain or another. CPJ is at a point in his tenure at GT that shouldn't be the case.

Bottomline, and this isn't even a CPJ versus Gailey thing, but this it is very apt for this conversation:

The three most important things for college football success is 1. Recruiting. 2. Coaching. 3. Resources.

If GT can't improve any of the three things, we'll continue to get the same results. CPJ has been given a lot of leeway in hiring coaches as exemplified by firing 2 DC's, and he's been given very reasonable, if not well above average, support with his resources (indoor practice facility, upgrade in team locker/meeting rooms, future upgrade in weight room, having one of the highest budgets for recruiting). I believe CPJ is a very good coach, so that just leaves recruiting. That's on CPJ and his staff, which is ultimately on CPJ. Heading into his 7th recruiting class, I just don't see #1 (which is the lifeblood of any college athletic program) improving under CPJ. Heading into Gailey's last class, GT fans at least saw improvement in his recruiting. Hey, that was Gailey's fault it took him that long to get there so there really wasn't any pity when he lost his right to coach one of the most talented recruiting classes in GT history.

I just don't buy that GT is this impossible place to recruit to. Harder than factory schools? Obviously, but any coach who signs up for this job knows what they're getting into. They better have a gameplan for it. For all of CPJ's shortcomings, I've never heard him complain that academics were holding GT back. Ever. If I'm working for NASA and my job is getting us to the moon, I better dang well embrace the challenges of fighting gravity and keeping astronauts alive because that's what they hired me to do.

I'm not going to apologize for wanting more for GT. GT has better resources than the majority of the high major schools out there, regardless of limited major offerings, or higher entrance requirements. It's up to the coach in place to make the most of it.
 

dressedcheeseside

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I just don't buy that GT is this impossible place to recruit to. Harder than factory schools? Obviously, but any coach who signs up for this job knows what they're getting into. They better have a gameplan for it. For all of CPJ's shortcomings, I've never heard him complain that academics were holding GT back. Ever. If I'm working for NASA and my job is getting us to the moon, I better dang well embrace the challenges of fighting gravity and keeping astronauts alive because that's what they hired me to do.

I'm not going to apologize for wanting more for GT. GT has better resources than the majority of the high major schools out there, regardless of limited major offerings, or higher entrance requirements. It's up to the coach in place to make the most of it.
The only time I care about other teams is when we play them.

I'm not going to make it about salary, because if we're going down that road it doesn't look good for CPJ that he's getting paid twice what Gailey did...and is getting the same results of the guy he replaced. GT is also one of the top spenders of when it comes to recruiting. So the resources are there for GT to do better than we have. I don't care if it's CPJ or the next guy after him.

I don't expect GT to be 'Bama or OSU or UGA or whatever factory anyone wants to throw out there. However, I do believe GT has every resource (money, facilities, recruiting region and academic prestige) to be better than 6-7, 8-5, 7-7, and 7-6 the past four years. Heck, I don't even mind a losing season and missing a bowl game if it meant we had a young and very talented team that was going through growing pains. The fact is the past four seasons seemed like we were going through one growing pain or another. CPJ is at a point in his tenure at GT that shouldn't be the case.

Bottomline, and this isn't even a CPJ versus Gailey thing, but this it is very apt for this conversation:

The three most important things for college football success is 1. Recruiting. 2. Coaching. 3. Resources.

If GT can't improve any of the three things, we'll continue to get the same results. CPJ has been given a lot of leeway in hiring coaches as exemplified by firing 2 DC's, and he's been given very reasonable, if not well above average, support with his resources (indoor practice facility, upgrade in team locker/meeting rooms, future upgrade in weight room, having one of the highest budgets for recruiting). I believe CPJ is a very good coach, so that just leaves recruiting. That's on CPJ and his staff, which is ultimately on CPJ. Heading into his 7th recruiting class, I just don't see #1 (which is the lifeblood of any college athletic program) improving under CPJ. Heading into Gailey's last class, GT fans at least saw improvement in his recruiting. Hey, that was Gailey's fault it took him that long to get there so there really wasn't any pity when he lost his right to coach one of the most talented recruiting classes in GT history.

I just don't buy that GT is this impossible place to recruit to. Harder than factory schools? Obviously, but any coach who signs up for this job knows what they're getting into. They better have a gameplan for it. For all of CPJ's shortcomings, I've never heard him complain that academics were holding GT back. Ever. If I'm working for NASA and my job is getting us to the moon, I better dang well embrace the challenges of fighting gravity and keeping astronauts alive because that's what they hired me to do.

I'm not going to apologize for wanting more for GT. GT has better resources than the majority of the high major schools out there, regardless of limited major offerings, or higher entrance requirements. It's up to the coach in place to make the most of it.
We all want and expect better. I haven't heard one poster on this board say otherwise. The question in doubt is whether CPJ can do it. Even you agree Tech is a harder place to succeed that the factories. Anybody can have a plan, but until you've actually coached at GT, that means nothing. Plans have to be tried and if they fail, new ones have to be tried. That's what I see CPJ doing. The latest moves have been positive. Getting rid of Groh and hiring Roof and Pelton has yielded positive results.

Adding the new recruiting staff appears to be yeilding dividends, too. You don't really know if your recruiting is improving till 3+ years after the class signs so we just don't have data on that yet. The Vad experiment failed, he wasn't a fit for the offense. To CPJ's credit we have 2 very capable backups, one who just might be "the one." Then we have another qb newly enrolled who is also very promising. I think things are looking up.
 

Mack

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I think he's gotta take 2 of the big four to be safe next yr. 1 would only do it if it's U(sic)Ga
Agree but for arguement sake ....if he took Georgie he would feather his bed since its been five yrs coming.I dont know ....four hours with a AD is kind of long but if the air is cleared then maybe we see some results........what say ye ?
Well if guys who want better football pony up the moolah so we can pay our coach 4 mil a year, then maybe we can compete for the top notch coaches. What do you think it would take to lure a top tier coach to GT? I mean everything, salary, academic changes, etc.... Good luck getting 1/10 of that from the hill.
Not so sure we will get a top tier guy and many programs started with guys who had little or no head coaching experience.Dooley at Ga started in 64 and nobody knew him...I think if one has to look they (AD staff) can find many coaches who are top notch young assts who would come to tech with the salary PJ started with...dont buy into the idea that we need a high priced guy to right our wagon.I think just about anybody we get can win seven and lose five,lose to Georgie and go to a nondescript bowl.Gosh Chan did it,GOL did it,Ross did it,for couple of years Bud did it,Pepper did it and Curry did it and with exception of Ross no head coach experience was present..understand your post and you are right if we want a Saban like guy etc we will have to pony up big bucks but in my humble opinion we can win with younger guys.
 

Animal02

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If other schools are always able to offer significantly more money than Tech can offer, then Tech, by definition, is a stepping stone school. It doesn't matter if the coach is a promising young coach or an established coach. If he does well at Tech, and Tech can't offer him what other schools are willing to offer, then the coach is most likely going to be hired away. So the argument that Tech would "become a stepping stone school" doesn't really hold water.

I should add that in reality EVERY school is a stepping stone school. Even Alabama, a school that many would consider a top tier school, has been raided by Texas A&M (Franchione). There are other examples of top tier schools losing their coach to another school offering more money.

No, it is not necessarrily a stepping stone school without being able to compete financially with the tp tier $$$ schools. I am simply pointing out the down side of the "hire the up and coming youngster"
I don't think anyone embraces mediocrity. But some schools put themselves into a position in which they have no other choice financially but to accept mediocrity. That's the situation that a school should avoid.

I agree, and unfortuantely Tech seems to be moving in that direction......marginally winning program and athletes graduating. It is all a matter of priorities. Despite what some people claim....I believe the hill has a big impact on what direction the program takes and what the priorities are.
 

33jacket

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Well if guys who want better football pony up the moolah so we can pay our coach 4 mil a year, then maybe we can compete for the top notch coaches. What do you think it would take to lure a top tier coach to GT? I mean everything, salary, academic changes, etc.... Good luck getting 1/10 of that from the hill.

IMO its not the HC salary that is the issue with the gTAA though. Its ability to pay assistants top notch dollars. Look at clemson. Its the support staff as well as asst coaches. We had one recruiter...now 3, but 3-5 is what everyone has and has had for years.

GTAA cheaps the program on the backend. Its what the general public doesn't see. Our total staff salary was bottom 3rd, IIRC 3rd from last least paid staff in the ACC. Kudos to Mike for hiring the 3 coordinators. The reality is football funds the AA. Without football we would be WAY worse than we are...but we spread the money to the other programs like communism...and don't feed the money maker like capitalism. Lets me more capitalistic here...feed the beast...and cut costs in womens volleyball, softball, swimming etc.

But the reality, is simple, a bigtime coach wants to get paid, but wants to be able to pay and hire top assistants and a staff for the program that is top notch. We are well below in 2 of the 3...and this doesn't even bring up the issue with academics.
 

Mack

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IMO its not the HC salary that is the issue with the gTAA though. Its ability to pay assistants top notch dollars. Look at clemson. Its the support staff as well as asst coaches. We had one recruiter...now 3, but 3-5 is what everyone has and has had for years.

GTAA cheaps the program on the backend. Its what the general public doesn't see. Our total staff salary was bottom 3rd, IIRC 3rd from last least paid staff in the ACC. Kudos to Mike for hiring the 3 coordinators. The reality is football funds the AA. Without football we would be WAY worse than we are...but we spread the money to the other programs like communism...and don't feed the money maker like capitalism. Lets me more capitalistic here...feed the beast...and cut costs in womens volleyball, softball, swimming etc.

But the reality, is simple, a bigtime coach wants to get paid, but wants to be able to pay and hire top assistants and a staff for the program that is top notch. We are well below in 2 of the 3...and this doesn't even bring up the issue with academics.
Just my two cents but attendance at football games and bb games fuel the program.If we start winning big and get some fun in the game we will get more fans to Grant Field.It is tough though when you have to spend money on all the other programs that do little to help themselves.
 

Animal02

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Just my two cents but attendance at football games and bb games fuel the program.If we start winning big and get some fun in the game we will get more fans to Grant Field.It is tough though when you have to spend money on all the other programs that do little to help themselves.

Even if Tech were to sell out every game, at 55k seats compared to 110k be are still behind the eight ball.......unless you go the U Mich route and give everybody a 12" space on the bleachers......could just imagine what the west stands mafia would say about that. :sour:
 

Mack

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Even if Tech were to sell out every game, at 55k seats compared to 110k be are still behind the eight ball.......unless you go the U Mich route and give everybody a 12" space on the bleachers......could just imagine what the west stands mafia would say about that. :sour:
Well money has to come from some where ? It would be a awful day for the West Standers no doubt so.........maybe they give more to the program.I can remember when a ticket at a tech football game was a real great deal...now we watch tv.
 

Rodney Kent

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The fallacy lies within the concept that top-notch coaches present at the factories could do well at Tech if we paid enough money to get them. This would not work. Tech is a different animal than the factories. We must have coaches who have produced great results at lesser schools that are not factories and had to use less than stellar athletes. One of the worst things we could do is get a professional coach who is accustomed to winning with the best available athletes that money can buy. This also would not work at Tech.

A Tech coach must be able to win using his mentality and shrewd coaching techniques as well as recognizing the available talents of his players and matching their talents to a system to better utilize them. You can get these kind of coaches from lesser schools for less money. The odds are greater for success using this method than shelling out big bucks for coaches from the factories or pros who have been working with the best athletes money can buy.

We did this with Johnson, and it appeared to have paid off at the beginning, but we did not know that Johnson could not adapt his strategy along the way. We also did this with Bobby Dodd, but we got lucky because he was one of the best game day coaches around, and he adapted his systems to his talent.
 

Animal02

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There is no comparison of Dodd to modern day college football......it was a totally different environment. As for CPJ......is it possible that his hands were tied WRT recruiting by a limited budget which forced him to recruit regionally? At Navy, recruiting would have HAD to be national since congress critters have limited nominations, so they are spread throughout the states.
 

Techster

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There is no comparison of Dodd to modern day college football......it was a totally different environment. As for CPJ......is it possible that his hands were tied WRT recruiting by a limited budget which forced him to recruit regionally? At Navy, recruiting would have HAD to be national since congress critters have limited nominations, so they are spread throughout the states.

GT has always had one of the highest recruiting budgets. CPJ chose to recruit within a limited area when he first got here, and even made it a point to recruit GA harder. It didn't work out as well as he thought. Have to give him credit for changing up our recruiting philosophy to cover nationally and more specifically recruiting academic intensive regions that play high level prep football.
 

GT Man

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898
GT has always had one of the highest recruiting budgets. CPJ chose to recruit within a limited area when he first got here, and even made it a point to recruit GA harder. It didn't work out as well as he thought. Have to give him credit for changing up our recruiting philosophy to cover nationally and more specifically recruiting academic intensive regions that play high level prep football.
Seems the perception of PJ as a stubborn man doesn't hold up when we look at the amount of changes and adjustments he's made to recruiting, play-calling and his staff. That said, recruiting still has a long way to go.
 

GT Man

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...but we did not know that Johnson could not adapt his strategy along the way.

PJ's adjusted a lot since he got here. IMHO, he adjusted too much. His offense can be dangerous when run the way it's intended. We just need the players (QB especially) to get it done.
 
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