Hire Fast, Fire Slow?

[Vespidae]

One difference between corporate world and sports:
You might turn your work force over every few years in the corporate world
You will turn over your work force (the players) every 4-5 years in college athletics

You might want to brush up on your statistics. Average employee tenure in most F500 organizations is < 3 years. For executives, it's < 2. In the business I ran, turnover averaged 100% every 18 mos. Recruiting was a way of life, so was training. As my ME professor, S Peter Kezios said, "Identify the constraints and deal with them." One by one.

I was fortunate (or unfortunate) to have been involved in probably at least 20 different businesses in my 35 year career. Some large (very large), some small. Short cycle, long cycle. B2B, B2C. Every one of them said, "That stuff doesn't work here. We're different." Really? Setting a vision and goal for the organization doesn't work? Installing KPI's and dashboards? Installing feedback mechanisms and milestone checks? Looking at process and how functions support the long-term goal? Replacing underperforming personnel? Obviously, I disagreed.

One story illustrates this that IS sports. Gene Stallings, former head coach at Alabama, where he won the natty in 1992 ... was asked to what did he attribute his coaching style. Interestingly enough, he did NOT mention Bear Bryant, for whom he had served. No. It was Tom Landry and the Dallas Cowboys. Gene explained that Tom was an ENGINEER by training and set up a system with goals, objectives, KPI's, dashboards for players by position, week and trend. He said that ... is where he truly learned how to coach. And who learned from Gene? Dabo Swinney.

Flame all you want. But I don't see ANY organizational skills with Geoff and a barely modest amount with TStan. If Dabo were our coach (not likely), I'm sure the first thing he would do is install a management system. My two cents ...

 

[bobongo]

No. To succeed which means playoff appearances the only solution is more money. The era of money is among us. We either pay or fall way behind. 100k per player will soon be the minimum.

We can't compete with the money. We need to think outside the box.

 

[lv20gt]

We can't compete with the money. We need to think outside the box.

That's like me trying to make the NBA and saying I can't compete athletically so I have to think outside the box.

 

[bobongo]

That's like me trying to make the NBA and saying I can't compete athletically so I have to think outside the box.

No, it isn't. It's dealing with the reality that we don't have the money to compete and becoming resourceful in other ways.
Trying to compete with the money is like Cuba getting into an arms race with the U.S.
Wanting to hire a big-name coach but lacking the money and cachet to do so is beating our heads against a stone wall.
Look elsewhere. It's simple - good coaches are to be had in the lower ranks, if our AD will just get down there and look.

 

[lv20gt]

No, it isn't. It's dealing with the reality that we don't have the money to compete and becoming resourceful in other ways.

Yes it is. There is no overcoming the money issue just like there was no overcoming my athleticism issue. Vaguely saying "be resourceful" doesn't mean anything.

Hire a new coach from the lower ranks. Okay so then they have a good year. What then? You either pay them or they leave. Do you just let them leave and hope you continuously strike gold going cheap on hires?

That's not even considering things like facilities, support staff, and the like.

 

[Randy Carson]

That's like me trying to make the NBA and saying I can't compete athletically so I have to think outside the box.

While it's true that a minimum level of skills is required to play professional basketball, consider this:

Mugsy Bogues was 5'3". He was known for assists and steals. He played in the League for 14 years.
Dennis Rodman was not an offensive star; he specialized in defense and rebounding. He played in the League for 14 years.

If you're not gonna score 20 points a night, you have to think outside the box to earn a spot on the roster.

I don't think Tech can compete with the factories...not any more. We have to think outside the box to win games. (Obviously, the TO was one approach.)

 

[SOWEGA Jacket]

There is money out there but GT does not hustle after the money like others do. Have our admin or coaching staffs spent their off seasons on hand shaking and back patting all over this state with every business man possible to raise money? That’s a today issue.

The longer term issue which has led us to today is the athletic programs are a completely different world than the regular student body. Hence, students don’t care (as seen in every student section of every sport) which breeds alumni that do not care. I can think of hundreds of ways the student athletes and staffs could interact with the student body to build a “school team” environment. I remember Bobby Ross going to every fraternity and sorority house just to hang and “connect” with the players. He also made it a priority to be seen all over campus with his daily jogs, etc and we exchanged many high fives as he passed by. Just that simple gesture created a fan for life.

Right now with spring practice going on and everyone out and about they could shut down Techwood Dr. at the intersection where the entire east campus sleeps and have the team and students start practice together with a quick stretching routine outside the stadium. Or a post practice pizza party in the intersection. I know it’s corny but you gotta go to the customer. Something to build a school environment and get students interested. If the players were po’ed about the crowd on the Saturday after Thanksgiving they should look at the AA for the answers and not the fans. The baseball team could let students take BP in the preseason. The hoops team is by far the most visible because you see their face during games. They could draw a crowd anywhere on campus to build rapport. Something, anything to draw the interest of their future customers. I know nothing will happen because GT has zero marketing acumen even to people who live 30 yards from the stadium.

 

[bobongo]

There is no overcoming the money issue

Then that's the end of it because we can't compete with money. At least, not as it stands now. It will never be enough to compete with the factories.

Yes, hire a good under-the-radar, up-and-coming coach and if he does well, we can afford to give him a raise then because our revenues will be better because of his success. Being resourceful means spending our money wisely, for instance spending it directly on recruiting instead of throwing it away on adding more empty seats and amenities to the stadium or more facilities. They're nice, but they get a smaller bang for the buck. Winning comes first. Horse before the cart.

 

[lv20gt]

While it's true that a minimum level of skills is required to play professional basketball, consider this:

Mugsy Bogues was 5'3". He was known for assists and steals. He played in the League for 14 years.
Dennis Rodman was not an offensive star; he specialized in defense and rebounding. He played in the League for 14 years.

If you're not gonna score 20 points a night, you have to think outside the box to earn a spot on the roster.

I don't think Tech can compete with the factories...not any more. We have to think outside the box to win games. (Obviously, the TO was one approach.)

Are you saying Bogues and Rodman weren't tremendous athletes?

As far as the TO goes compare Johnson's win % here to Gaileys. The reality is "thinking outside the box" didn't result in more wins on average, because you can't get around the talent and money issues without addressing the talent and money issues.

 

[bobongo]

Are you saying Bogues and Rodman weren't tremendous athletes?

As far as the TO goes compare Johnson's win % here to Gaileys. The reality is "thinking outside the box" didn't result in more wins on average, because you can't get around the talent and money issues without addressing the talent and money issues.

Johnson's record would have been better had enough resources been allocated toward recruiting and assistant coaches. We saved pennies and wasted dollars. Cart before the horse.

 

[4shotB]

Johnson's record would have been better had enough resources been allocated toward recruiting and assistant coaches. We saved pennies and wasted dollars. Cart before the horse.

I think you are, consciously or not, making a point that several of us have been making. Schools that want to excel and not just participate make getting resources a priority. Through many AD's and HC's and school presidents, the issue IS that we are content with what we have done and who we are. That IS the real reason for the malaise although some of the younger fans may think this is simply a TStan/CGC issue. A lot of us older fans don't. While I agree that there are legitimate concerns with the aforementioned duo, they are symptoms and not the root cause.IMO.

 

[augustabuzz]

You might want to brush up on your statistics. Average employee tenure in most F500 organizations is < 3 years. For executives, it's < 2. In the business I ran, turnover averaged 100% every 18 mos. Recruiting was a way of life, so was training. As my ME professor, S Peter Kezios said, "Identify the constraints and deal with them." One by one.

I was fortunate (or unfortunate) to have been involved in probably at least 20 different businesses in my 35 year career. Some large (very large), some small. Short cycle, long cycle. B2B, B2C. Every one of them said, "That stuff doesn't work here. We're different." Really? Setting a vision and goal for the organization doesn't work? Installing KPI's and dashboards? Installing feedback mechanisms and milestone checks? Looking at process and how functions support the long-term goal? Replacing underperforming personnel? Obviously, I disagreed.

One story illustrates this that IS sports. Gene Stallings, former head coach at Alabama, where he won the natty in 1992 ... was asked to what did he attribute his coaching style. Interestingly enough, he did NOT mention Bear Bryant, for whom he had served. No. It was Tom Landry and the Dallas Cowboys. Gene explained that Tom was an ENGINEER by training and set up a system with goals, objectives, KPI's, dashboards for players by position, week and trend. He said that ... is where he truly learned how to coach. And who learned from Gene? Dabo Swinney.

Flame all you want. But I don't see ANY organizational skills with Geoff and a barely modest amount with TStan. If Dabo were our coach (not likely), I'm sure the first thing he would do is install a management system. My two cents ...

Dr. Kezios was my advisor.

 

[lv20gt]

Johnson's record would have been better had enough resources been allocated toward recruiting and assistant coaches. We saved pennies and wasted dollars. Cart before the horse.

So what you're saying is it came down to money.

 

[bobongo]

I think you are, consciously or not, making a point that several of us have been making. Schools that want to excel and not just participate make getting resources a priority. Through many AD's and HC's and school presidents, the issue IS that we are content with what we have done and who we are. That IS the real reason for the malaise although some of the younger fans may think this is simply a TStan/CGC issue. A lot of us older fans don't. While I agree that there are legitimate concerns with the aforementioned duo, they are symptoms and not the root cause.IMO.

How could Tech get more resources for its football program? TStan has established some funds, and they have grown quite well. But they're just not enough to compete with the big boys, and they're directed toward facilities. What could he do to get more? Seems he's done a lot already. I just think the money could be spent more wisely. It seems to me more a matter of spending the resources we have more wisely than getting more. The only thing he could do IMO would be to establish a fund dedicated to recruiting budgets. What would he have to lose by establishing such a fund?

 

[Skeptic]

In the corporate world, there are two commonly held bits of wisdom when it comes to employees:

1. Hire slow. Fire fast.
2. When is the best time to fire someone? The first time you think of it.

Bad hiring decisions are expensive, and the sooner you admit a mistake, the less it costs you in the long run.

So, it strikes me as odd that in the world of college sports, when a coach is fired or resigns, the university seems to make every effort to announce the new coach ASAP. Common arguments for this approach are:

• It's a small world; all these guys know one another.
• AD's keep a short list in their top drawer.
• Recruiting is affected by the vacancy.
• Yada, yada, whatever.

I'm not impressed with our success at hiring great coaches. In the past 40 years, Bobby Cremins stands out in my mind. (You can name your favorite, if you want to...my meter started running in the Pepper Rogers era. This isn't that thread.)

This is about whether we should be taking more time and getting it right next time. Maybe that will have a bigger impact on recruiting than getting it done quick. Just sayin'.

The best advice ever for me: know the difference in a guy with 10 years experience and the guy who has one year of experience repeated 10 times. Knowing that will make coming to work fun again.

You might want to brush up on your statistics. Average employee tenure in most F500 organizations is < 3 years. For executives, it's < 2. In the business I ran, turnover averaged 100% every 18 mos. Recruiting was a way of life, so was training. As my ME professor, S Peter Kezios said, "Identify the constraints and deal with them." One by one.

I was fortunate (or unfortunate) to have been involved in probably at least 20 different businesses in my 35 year career. Some large (very large), some small. Short cycle, long cycle. B2B, B2C. Every one of them said, "That stuff doesn't work here. We're different." Really? Setting a vision and goal for the organization doesn't work? Installing KPI's and dashboards? Installing feedback mechanisms and milestone checks? Looking at process and how functions support the long-term goal? Replacing underperforming personnel? Obviously, I disagreed.

One story illustrates this that IS sports. Gene Stallings, former head coach at Alabama, where he won the natty in 1992 ... was asked to what did he attribute his coaching style. Interestingly enough, he did NOT mention Bear Bryant, for whom he had served. No. It was Tom Landry and the Dallas Cowboys. Gene explained that Tom was an ENGINEER by training and set up a system with goals, objectives, KPI's, dashboards for players by position, week and trend. He said that ... is where he truly learned how to coach. And who learned from Gene? Dabo Swinney.

Flame all you want. But I don't see ANY organizational skills with Geoff and a barely modest amount with TStan. If Dabo were our coach (not likely), I'm sure the first thing he would do is install a management system. My two cents ...

Good get. Interesting and unexpected. Dabo whose coaching line goes directly to the Bear. also is one of only two in the country who won NCs as both coach and player -- the second, or first, was Bud Wilkinson at Nebraska and Oklahoma. Swinney, often dismissed as a "CEO" type, is still very close to Stallings, owes him his career-- otherwise he would have wound up as a hospital administrator -- and thus it is said that the only way he would coach Alabama would be because Stallings, whose grandson was a walk-on backup tight end for Clemson a few years back, personally intervened to ask him. Nobody thinks Stallings would do that.

Maybe apropos to the issue, Stallings in an interview with Swinney at Clemson -- the Stallings family owns a house on the lake there -- said Dabo "was not a very good player". Dabo looked on and made the best of it before Stallings finished it off: But "Dabo wanted it; he wanted to be a good player, and want is the most important thing."

Stallings also laid out his coaching and "management" philosophy. When hiring coaches he said he wanted three things: "good people". If he was going to spend that much time with somebody, he had to like them. they had to know the game, and they had to be good communicators. Shoot, that is good management in a nutshell.

I will try to find the segment in question because the look on Dabo's face when Stallings flat out said he was not a very good football player is priceless. The interview took place in Dabo's offce, surrounded by reminders of all his coaching achievements. Want, indeed. (p.s. in 2008, it seemed ordained that Clemson had to beat South Carolina to assure Swinney the permanent HC job. Stallings flew in from Texas to give him a boost. Something else Dabo never forgot.)

 

[bobongo]

So what you're saying is it came down to money.

No, it came down to spending the money we had in the wrong place instead of the right place. As I said, we saved pennies and wasted dollars. There is money, and there is how you spend it. If you don't have enough, you spend what you have wisely. We didn't do that.

 

[g0lftime]

Yes it is. There is no overcoming the money issue just like there was no overcoming my athleticism issue. Vaguely saying "be resourceful" doesn't mean anything.

Hire a new coach from the lower ranks. Okay so then they have a good year. What then? You either pay them or they leave. Do you just let them leave and hope you continuously strike gold going cheap on hires?

That's not even considering things like facilities, support staff, and the like.

Doeren at NCSU was head coach at NIU for several years. Yep same school that beat us last year opening game. He had several years with good records before state hired him. He just got a big contract extension. He doesn't appear to be going anywhere soon. I would take him in a heartbeat at GT.

 

[lv20gt]

Doeren at NCSU was head coach at NIU for several years. Yep same school that beat us last year opening game. He had several years with good records before state hired him. He just got a big contract extension. He doesn't appear to be going anywhere soon. I would take him in a heartbeat at GT.

Not sure what Doren being at NIU nearly a decade ago has to do with anything other than yet another cheap shot with no point.

Anyways, Doren has a 56.6% winning % at NCSU and has never won the division much less the conference. He's slightly out performing what we had with Chan Gailey and it got him paid 5 mil a year after the second time finishing ranked in 9 years there. Like I said, even if we went bargain bin hunting and struck well, we'd still have pay to keep.

Also were nay coaches hired this year similar to Doren when he was hired out of NIU? Successful stint at a lower level program? Maybe from a place like Louisiana? Wonder what that type of coach commanded in terms of salary.

 

[g0lftime]

Not sure what Doren being at NIU nearly a decade ago has to do with anything other than yet another cheap shot with no point.

Anyways, Doren has a 56.6% winning % at NCSU and has never won the division much less the conference. He's slightly out performing what we had with Chan Gailey and it got him paid 5 mil a year after the second time finishing ranked in 9 years there. Like I said, even if we went bargain bin hunting and struck well, we'd still have pay to keep.

Also were nay coaches hired this year similar to Doren when he was hired out of NIU? Successful stint at a lower level program? Maybe from a place like Louisiana? Wonder what that type of coach commanded in terms of salary.

Your reply was a back handed cheapshot. Just pointing out it is possible to get a solid coach from that level and they can be kept if they are content with their situation . We don't necessarily have to pony up 5M$ or more to get a solid coach. How many division championships would we have in the same division as Clemson. State is predicted to be good this year. They may not beat Clemson but we aren't in any conversation about challenging anybody for a championship. He is a solid coach and having to recruit in the backyard of UNC.

 

[lv20gt]

Your reply was a back handed cheapshot. Just pointing out it is possible to get a solid coach from that level and they can be kept if they are content with their situation . We don't necessarily have to pony up 5M$ or more to get a solid coach. How many division championships would we have in the same division as Clemson. State is predicted to be good this year. They may not beat Clemson but we aren't in any conversation about challenging anybody for a championship. He is a solid coach and having to recruit in the backyard of UNC.

Backhanded cheapshot? You think I was subtly praising him or something?

Anyways. You're right. We can find the savior in the savings bin of wall mart who will have great success and just love the culture of GT so much he won't move on.

Yup. That'll work.