Haynes King Update: How Do We Feel About Him?

[Augusta_Jacket]

Yeah that was the quote, and the part I replied to was the part I disagreed with. Yes, we'd have experience growing pains at receiver and qb. The running issues were self inflicted nonsense by Collins.

Not totally. Unless we were going to run an option based scheme, then we were going to struggle with blocking. Considering Collins had marching orders to steer clear of the option, that I can't really blame on him.

 

[ibeattetris]

In this alternate reality is CPJ our head coach and are we running his option offense? Otherwise, what CPJ did with our previous offense has no bearing how well we would be able to run the ball if we are running a completely different scheme.

Why are we under the impression that we 100% had to have the line do something they were completely unsuited for the majority of the plays? If you have Tom Brady at QB, you aren't going to run the same offense that you would run if you had Lamar Jackson. The same can be said about the OL. Collins felt like he had completely separate himself from CPJ and decided that we would not leverage any of the strengths our OL had.

I am not going to spend more time dirtying this thread with this. Haynes King is an exceptional talent, and I am glad our team is performing at a high level.

 

[Eli]

We didn't crap-can our entire previous roster like he basically did. It's not really apples-to-apples.

 

[slugboy]

Our current TD rate on offense is 34.8% (33rd). Defensive touchdown rate is 39.1% (112th). Just moving the needle a little bit will be a big help.

If we score 6 more points per game, we’re 2-1. If we get to the point of getting close enough to make field goals, we look a ton better.

Moving the needle on each end (force more field goals, get more points) would be a huge help.

The complete quote was this:

Haynes King, this receiving corps, and the current RBs would be struggling behind a year 1 or 2 OL.

Perhaps it would have been better to say the complete offense, but regardless, even these current RBs would struggle to run behind the line we had in 2019, since the 2019 OL was being coached to block in a completely different way from the previous regime.

This is correct. The issue was the O line. BK is a good coach, but the line has stunk for the four years he was the position coach. It is just now beginning to resemble an FBS caliber line. Just because they are finally playing better does not mean we could have fixed it in the first year after CPJ.

like Augusta Jacket and others have mentioned, we’re using a different blocking scheme. We might have been better in 2019 with this blocking strategy

 

[CEB]

Yes. We were rebuilding from a completely different offense. Also, Deion is a unicorn. There are athletes willing to forgo the extra NIL a bigger school could bring to play for him. Two of his starting OL are returning players and the other three are Grad transfers and a senior transfer.

We didn't crap-can our entire previous roster like he basically did. It's not really apples-to-apples.

Hang on… back when Collins was hired, that was not an option for us anyway. We hired a guy to rebuild our roster because he was a recruiter. We knew it would take a few years to get the recruits we needed. Almost as soon as the ink was dry, CoVID happened, NIL happened and the free transfer portal craze happened. We had planned and hired a guys specifically for circumstances that changed overnight once the deal was done. All of Collins’ known strengths had been negated, and we very quickly started seeing the depth of his weaknesses in so many other areas. Everything about that situation was comically bad, including the horrific timing of it all.
If the portal and NIL had been what it is today when we were considering replacements for CPJ, I certainly hope we would’ve done things very differently.

 

[Augusta_Jacket]

Hang on… back when Collins was hired, that was not an option for us anyway. We hired a guy to rebuild our roster because he was a recruiter. We knew it would take a few years to get the recruits we needed. Almost as soon as the ink was dry, CoVID happened, NIL happened and the free transfer portal craze happened. We had planned and hired a guys specifically for circumstances that changed overnight once the deal was done. All of Collins’ known strengths had been negated, and we very quickly started seeing the depth of his weaknesses in so many other areas. Everything about that situation was comically bad, including the horrific timing of it all.
If the portal and NIL had been what it is today when we were considering replacements for CPJ, I certainly hope we would’ve done things very differently.

It's possible, but unless your name is Deion, the portal hasn't been the magic solution for a lot of teams out there. It will generally get you an upgrade or two at a position of need, but trying to wholesale recruit out of it has as many misses as hits. Most players in the portal are there because they didn't play at their former school. The ones that make the biggest impact are generally the ones that were lured into the portal by the team that wants them.

 

[CEB]

It's possible, but unless your name is Deion, the portal hasn't been the magic solution for a lot of teams out there. It will generally get you an upgrade or two at a position of need, but trying to wholesale recruit out of it has as many misses as hits. Most players in the portal are there because they didn't play at their former school. The ones that make the biggest impact are generally the ones that were lured into the portal by the team that wants them.

No doubt about that.
My point mainly is that flipping a roster circa 2018 looks vastly different from flipping a roster circa 2022. We committed to the “old way” in 2018 because that was the only way at that time.

We may not have had near the success Deion is having and we may not have had the stomach for showing so many kids the door, but I certainly believe we would have hired and managed the process very differently with today’s parameters.

 

[Roswellgoldmember]

No doubt about that.
My point mainly is that flipping a roster circa 2018 looks vastly different from flipping a roster circa 2022. We committed to the “old way” in 2018 because that was the only way at that time.

We may not have had near the success Deion is having and we may not have had the stomach for showing so many kids the door, but I certainly believe we would have hired and managed the process very differently with today’s parameters.

Of course we would have and of course it wouldn't take 6 years to rebuild an offensive line with the portal.

 

[leatherneckjacket]

Why are we under the impression that we 100% had to have the line do something they were completely unsuited for the majority of the plays? If you have Tom Brady at QB, you aren't going to run the same offense that you would run if you had Lamar Jackson. The same can be said about the OL. Collins felt like he had completely separate himself from CPJ and decided that we would not leverage any of the strengths our OL had.

I am not going to spend more time dirtying this thread with this. Haynes King is an exceptional talent, and I am glad our team is performing at a high level.

I never made a point about what offense we had to run to speed up the transition. I merely said what CPJ did in the previous offense is irrelevant since we were running a new offense. Now, if your larger point is that Coach Pat was an awful hire as an OC, I wholeheartedly agree and posted as much (on the other site) when he was named OC many years ago. If your point is that the transition could have been easy for a good coach since CPJ's offense was effective at running the ball, I disagree completely.

I just checked and I actually posted in the OC hire thread how bad Temple's offense was. Man, did I have some foresight.

OC Hire

If Saban hires you, then you have some ability. Some truth there. 1. Several Die hard Ala fans say we got a great guy and coach in GC. Left but not a bridge burner. 2. Saban gave Pruitt his start as recruiter, db coach. Now head coach. 3. Saban took in Kevin Steele, who I thought was worst...

gtswarm.com

 

[leatherneckjacket]

If we score 6 more points per game, we’re 2-1. If we get to the point of getting close enough to make field goals, we look a ton better.

Moving the needle on each end (force more field goals, get more points) would be a huge help.


like Augusta Jacket and others have mentioned, we’re using a different blocking scheme. We might have been better in 2019 with this blocking strategy

I do not think there is any blocking scheme that would have been effective coming off CPJs option offense given the talent we had on the line at the time. That is not to say that the line would have been that bad with CPJ as HC

 

[L41k18]

GaSouthern was not running the PJ offense when Helton took over. In fact, nobody is running it anymore; the military academies come the closest but they have moved away from much of it.

High schools don't run it anymore. Players don't want to play it anymore. WRs want to be WRs, QBs want to throw the ball, OL have to be able to pass block, DL want to get all the practice they can rushing the passer & DBs want to get all the time they can honing their cover skills. On top of that, blocking rules have changed.

I love PJ & I loved his offense. But the sport has changed and there is zero value in pining for the past, or minimizing the systemic changes that had to made.

 

[slugboy]

No doubt about that.
My point mainly is that flipping a roster circa 2018 looks vastly different from flipping a roster circa 2022. We committed to the “old way” in 2018 because that was the only way at that time.

We may not have had near the success Deion is having and we may not have had the stomach for showing so many kids the door, but I certainly believe we would have hired and managed the process very differently with today’s parameters.

At risk of going further down the rathole, TFG’s strength was supposed to be recruiting. Great recruiters who choose to participate do well with the portal (Mack Brown, Kiffin).
Despite TFG’s resume, the recruiting wins from the previous staff seem more tied to assistants. There’s also the idea that he recruited better according to the recruiting grades than to team needs.
Just my opinion, but every coach had to deal with NIL and the portal. His resume indicated the change should have been an advantage (“go play for the fun coach”), but he was less prepared for the sea change than most coaches

 

[slugboy]

I do not think there is any blocking scheme that would have been effective coming off CPJs option offense given the talent we had on the line at the time. That is not to say that the line would have been that bad with CPJ as HC

It’s similar to air raid and not all that different from what we’re doing now. I think Mike Leach would have been productive immediately—or at least bowling by 2020

 

[leatherneckjacket]

It’s similar to air raid and not all that different from what we’re doing now. I think Mike Leach would have been productive immediately—or at least bowling by 2020

I agree bowling by 2020. I still think we would have struggled in year one as we did not have the line to block longer than a second or two nor the receivers to get open on the quick routes.

 

[Augusta_Jacket]

It’s similar to air raid and not all that different from what we’re doing now. I think Mike Leach would have been productive immediately—or at least bowling by 2020

I agree bowling by 2020. I still think we would have struggled in year one as we did not have the line to block longer than a second or two nor the receivers to get open on the quick routes.

Agreed, but then again, Leach was a singular talent. There were a few coaches who probably could have drastically shortened the process. The issue we had was that we couldn't afford most of them and a lot of them weren't interested in the rebuilding effort anyways.

 

[SidewalkJacket]

What Clay Helton has done at Georgia Southern shows me that the transition can be done in a quick amount of time.

1. Clay Helton didn't take over for an option attack. GSU hasn't run the 3-O since 2013.

2. Where exactly is this incredible success Clay Helton has had at GSU? I hear about it all the time. Not to hijack the thread, but here is GSU's record over the past few years. All I hear is about how Helton is so much better than Lunsford and has revolutionized the program, but....

Clay Helton:

• 2023 Season. Overall: 2-0. Home: 2-0.
• 2022 Season. Overall: 6-7. Conf: 3-5.

Chad Lunsford:

• 2021 Season. Overall: 3-9. Conf: 2-6
• 2020 Season. Overall: 8-5. Conf: 4-4.
• 2019 Season. Overall: 7-6. Conf: 5-4.
• 2018 Season. Overall: 10-3. Conf: 6-2.

 

[yeti92]

The complete quote was this:

Haynes King, this receiving corps, and the current RBs would be struggling behind a year 1 or 2 OL.

Perhaps it would have been better to say the complete offense, but regardless, even these current RBs would struggle to run behind the line we had in 2019, since the 2019 OL was being coached to block in a completely different way from the previous regime.

The argument against that claim is that Dontae Smith was on the 2019 team and averaged 6.5 yd/carry, where now he is currently averaging 4.2 yd/carry.

 

[GetYourBuzzOn]

1. Clay Helton didn't take over for an option attack. GSU hasn't run the 3-O since 2013.

2. Where exactly is this incredible success Clay Helton has had at GSU? I hear about it all the time. Not to hijack the thread, but here is GSU's record over the past few years. All I hear is about how Helton is so much better than Lunsford and has revolutionized the program, but....

Clay Helton:

• 2023 Season. Overall: 2-0. Home: 2-0.
• 2022 Season. Overall: 6-7. Conf: 3-5.

Chad Lunsford:

• 2021 Season. Overall: 3-9. Conf: 2-6
• 2020 Season. Overall: 8-5. Conf: 4-4.
• 2019 Season. Overall: 7-6. Conf: 5-4.
• 2018 Season. Overall: 10-3. Conf: 6-2.

Perhaps the perception is magnified due to how bad their 2021 season was? They improved significantly in 2022, going from an end-of-season SP+ of -15.3 in '21 to -6.4. This year it looks like they're going to go over their Regular Season Win total of 6 and are in contention to win a tough Sun Belt conference.

There are numerous articles out there from reputable sources that discuss Ga Southern running a version of the Option offense up until Helton's hiring, such as this:

Clay Helton hired at Georgia Southern: Ex-USC coach gets immediate chance to reinvigorate career

Less than two months after he was fired at USC, Helton quickly found a new gig

www.cbssports.com

I do know they were throwing the ball more over the last couple of years under Lunsford, but it was still referred to as an option-based offense.

 

[Augusta_Jacket]

The argument against that claim is that Dontae Smith was on the 2019 team and averaged 6.5 yd/carry, where now he is currently averaging 4.2 yd/carry.

He rushed the ball 10 times in 2019 for 65 yards. He gained 35 yards in 7 carries against Temple, 32 yards in 2 carries against Duke, and lost 2 yards in his sole carry against the Citadel. As a change of pace back in 2020, he also fared well. In 2021 and 2022 when he began to be used more often, his ypc started to decline. As of right now, he's not being used much at all.

Edit: What made Dontae special was his yards after contact. He was frequently hit immediately but able to shake it for a long gain. This works when you're the change of pace but becomes harder when you're getting the brunt of the carries.

 

[GetYourBuzzOn]

To get the thread back on track- I am legitimately excited to watch Tech games every Saturday knowing we have a competent QB in King and an offensive staff that gives us a chance to win every single week!