Haynes King Update: How Do We Feel About Him?

[slugboy]

The top QBs you listed have better OLs than King. No one is saying King was perfect yesterday, but he was by far the least of our problems. The OL, the RBs and WRs all performed much worse. He had WRs drop too many passes. He has TEs running free never looking for the pass. He has RBs that fall down upon contact (or tipping the ball to defenders). He has a line that seems incapable of blocking. I think he deserves a little slack for air mailing a pass or two, as well as trying to put too much touch on the pick 6 pass. I do not blame him at all for the second interception or the grounding. Those were on Cooley and Franklin.

As an analogy, (IMO) what we have in King is a Porsche that needs some engine work and some maintenance. He shows signs of being a great QB, but he shows a lot of problems too. And we need to fix those, if fixable.

I read this thread like I read our “top 10 offense” thread from earlier this year—we have a lot of empty stats. King has the potential to be a very good QB, but he’s not one yet.

When BG first scored, we needed to answer. Our answer was a 3-and-out. That’s been our answer multiple times this season. The great QBs we have in our history have answered that question with a good drive.

None of that excuses the other parts of our game. It doesn’t let the coaches or other players off the hook.

As for the receivers, I was happy with their performance until yesterday. Maybe I was ignoring issues, but it seemed like they had taken a step up this season. I was especially disappointed to see how much better BGs receivers blocked compared to ours.

Our run blocking remains terrible.

 

[roadkill]

The top QBs you listed have better OLs than King. No one is saying King was perfect yesterday, but he was by far the least of our problems. The OL, the RBs and WRs all performed much worse. He had WRs drop too many passes. He has TEs running free never looking for the pass. He has RBs that fall down upon contact (or tipping the ball to defenders). He has a line that seems incapable of blocking. I think he deserves a little slack for air mailing a pass or two, as well as trying to put too much touch on the pick 6 pass. I do not blame him at all for the second interception or the grounding. Those were on Cooley and Franklin.

Agree that King was not the reason, or even the primary reason for the loss yesterday, but it was a team loss and virtually everyone shares some responsibility. While I continue to believe that King breathes life into our formerly abysmal offense, he did not have his best day yesterday, and I can't absolve him of contributing to the loss. Many of the issues you cite as problem areas have been with us since the first game, yet King managed to rise above them. Until yesterday. He has earned the right to be cut some slack, but I can't just close my eyes and pretend he didn't have a game that was below his usual standard.

Something happened after the first two series, where he went 5/5. He began to overthrow some of his receivers, which is often a symptom of pressing. It wasn't just my observation - he was asked about this in his postgame presser. The first interception was a bad decision. It happens sometimes, and normally we would just move on. But it was a pick-six six and thus a huge impact at a time when we were struggling. I do not absolve him of responsibility for the second int. either. He threw a high heater to his checkdown RB, who had to turn and leap just to get his hands on it. It was a catchable ball to a good wide receiver or tall TE with good hands, but a challenge for 5'10 Cooley. This int. occurred in the red zone at a critical juncture if we were to have a chance to get back in the game. Finally, while giving a defender a free run at your QB is obviously not the QB's fault, running backward for ten yards while the defenders are closing on you, then just flipping the ball to get rid of it were two compounding bad decisions. We were in field goal range had he just ducked and taken a sack. Then we were not.

I remain confident that King has good coaching and can learn from his mistakes. We need him to, because we aren't good enough in any other phase of the game or position group to win when our QB has an off day.

 

[iceeater1969]

After Sims I am all in with King.
I hope he stays for 2 more years.

He did not have an off 4 quarters like the defense and like the running game.

Slightly Improving the D and geting a pulse in red zone runnig game will help the win column more than perfecting king.

Does anyone remember how in accurate Sims was?

 

[Northeast Stinger]

After Sims I am all in with King.
I hope he stays for 2 more years.

He did not have an off 4 quarters like the defense and like the running game.

Slightly Improving the D and geting a pulse in red zone runnig game will help the win column more than perfecting king.

Does anyone remember how in accurate Sims was?

Yeah, there’s no comparison between King and Sims.

 

[roadkill]

After Sims I am all in with King.
I hope he stays for 2 more years.

He did not have an off 4 quarters like the defense and like the running game.

Slightly Improving the D and geting a pulse in red zone runnig game will help the win column more than perfecting king.

Does anyone remember how in accurate Sims was?

I don't disagree with any of your statements.

But there is an implication from some posters that our QB is above criticism, or that his actions played no part in our loss. I could be reading too much into those posts.

I concede that “bad” was a poor choice of a word to describe our QB’s overall performance on Saturday. “Below his usual standard” was the phrase I used later on in my post above, and I stand by that.

And perhaps I wasn’t clear in my point about how stats can sometimes be misleading. King is the ACC leader in yards and touchdowns. We should be ecstatic to have a QB with those stats. That doesn’t mean some of his decisions and actions Saturday had no negative impacts on the game or its outcome. Do you disagree with any of the specific examples I cited?

 

[g0lftime]

He had miscues at times against BG but he still put up decent numbers. Anyone who has ever competed knows that happens at times but he didn't get any help from the defense either. He deserves to start unless he starts making too many mistakes. He should continue to improve. It's not like he is a 5th year senior. I would like to see Pyron get some PT at some point too.

 

[JacketFan137]

He had miscues at times against BG but he still put up decent numbers. Anyone who has ever competed knows that happens at times but he didn't get any help from the defense either. He deserves to start unless he starts making too many mistakes. He should continue to improve. It's not like he is a 5th year senior. I would like to see Pyron get some PT at some point too.

pyron won’t be able to get much playing time this season. should have got some against bowling green because we should have been up 30 points at half time. that’s one of the most disappointing parts about yesterday. should have been a lot of backups getting to play mop up minutes but we lost

 

[slugboy]

When Johnson was the coach here, it was easy to say we were leading the conference in rushing yards. What was important was total offense, though (and we did well there, too)

Here’s the official ACC stats, including games like SCST. We’re 8th out of 14, which is slightly below average.

Rank	Team	G	TD	FG	XPT	2XP	DXP	SAF	PTS	AVG/G
1	Miami	4	22	7	20	1	0	0	175	43.8
2	Florida State	4	23	4	23	0	0	0	173	43.3
3	Syracuse	5	25	6	23	0	0	0	191	38.2
4	Louisville	5	24	6	23	0	0	0	185	37.0
5	North Carolina	4	18	6	17	0	0	0	143	35.8
6	Clemson	5	24	3	23	0	0	0	176	35.2
7	Duke	5	21	5	20	1	0	0	163	32.6
8	Georgia Tech	5	21	6	18	0	0	0	162	32.4
9	Wake Forest	4	13	9	11	0	0	0	116	29.0
10	Boston College	5	18	5	16	0	0	0	139	27.8
11	NC State	5	16	5	16	0	0	0	127	25.4
12	Virginia Tech	5	15	6	14	0	0	1	124	24.8
13	Pitt	5	15	4	15	0	0	0	117	23.4
14	Virginia	5	13	5	12	1	0	0	107

If your offense is biased towards the pass or the run, people on that end of the stats are going to have gaudy stats.

Here’s yardage—we’re in the top three there, but it’s A LOT less important than points:

Rank	Team	G	RUSH	PASS	PLAYS	YDS	AVG/P	TD	AVG/G
1	Miami	4	890	1186	252	2076	8.2	21	519.0
2	Louisville	5	969	1505	331	2474	7.5	24	494.8
3	Georgia Tech	5	837	1500	343	2337	6.8	21	467.4
4	North Carolina	4	669	1187	292	1856	6.4	17	464.0
5	Syracuse	5	953	1359	365	2312	6.3	23	462.4
6	Clemson	5	922	1364	387	2286	5.9	22	457.2
7	Florida State	4	591	1118	250	1709	6.8	21	427.3
8	Wake Forest	4	707	999	305	1706	5.6	12	426.5
9	Duke	5	991	1030	318	2021	6.4	20	404.2
10	Boston College	5	850	1152	354	2002	5.7	17	400.4
11	Virginia Tech	5	632	1112	349	1744	5.0	15	348.8
12	NC State	5	755	971	350	1726	4.9	14	345.2
13	Virginia	5	376	1264	328	1640	5.0	13	328.0
14	Pitt	5	578	963	300	1541	5.1	13	308

In passing yards, we’re second. In rushing yards, we’re 8th. But they’re mostly empty yards—we aren’t scoring, or even controlling the clock and wearing out the opposing defense.

We’re also the #6 passing DEFENSE in the ACC. Even though the stats have us as an above average passing defense, how many of you would say that’s true?

I can find stats that rank us #8 in a particular offensive category. But great offenses score.

I don’t want to overrate Points per Drive, but we were #41 offensively in that stat before Bowling Green. Defense was #104. Bowling Green’s offense was #124 before they played us and #104 defensively.

When we look at these stats, the outcome is a lot more “mid” offensively than top of the conference.

Again, here’s the QBR for the ACC. Not a perfect stat, but Elite is Tyler Van Dyke, Jordan Travis, and Drake Maye. Syracuse, Duke, and UVA are getting ranked “good”. We’re in with Louisville and VT at “mid”. King is #46 in FBS, which is respectable, but not upper tier of P5.

 

[JacketFan137]

When Johnson was the coach here, it was easy to say we were leading the conference in rushing yards. What was important was total offense, though (and we did well there, too)

Here’s the official ACC stats, including games like SCST. We’re 8th out of 14, which is slightly below average.

Rank	Team	G	TD	FG	XPT	2XP	DXP	SAF	PTS	AVG/G
1	Miami	4	22	7	20	1	0	0	175	43.8
2	Florida State	4	23	4	23	0	0	0	173	43.3
3	Syracuse	5	25	6	23	0	0	0	191	38.2
4	Louisville	5	24	6	23	0	0	0	185	37.0
5	North Carolina	4	18	6	17	0	0	0	143	35.8
6	Clemson	5	24	3	23	0	0	0	176	35.2
7	Duke	5	21	5	20	1	0	0	163	32.6
8	Georgia Tech	5	21	6	18	0	0	0	162	32.4
9	Wake Forest	4	13	9	11	0	0	0	116	29.0
10	Boston College	5	18	5	16	0	0	0	139	27.8
11	NC State	5	16	5	16	0	0	0	127	25.4
12	Virginia Tech	5	15	6	14	0	0	1	124	24.8
13	Pitt	5	15	4	15	0	0	0	117	23.4
14	Virginia	5	13	5	12	1	0	0	107

If your offense is biased towards the pass or the run, people on that end of the stats are going to have gaudy stats.

Here’s yardage—we’re in the top three there, but it’s A LOT less important than points:

Rank	Team	G	RUSH	PASS	PLAYS	YDS	AVG/P	TD	AVG/G
1	Miami	4	890	1186	252	2076	8.2	21	519.0
2	Louisville	5	969	1505	331	2474	7.5	24	494.8
3	Georgia Tech	5	837	1500	343	2337	6.8	21	467.4
4	North Carolina	4	669	1187	292	1856	6.4	17	464.0
5	Syracuse	5	953	1359	365	2312	6.3	23	462.4
6	Clemson	5	922	1364	387	2286	5.9	22	457.2
7	Florida State	4	591	1118	250	1709	6.8	21	427.3
8	Wake Forest	4	707	999	305	1706	5.6	12	426.5
9	Duke	5	991	1030	318	2021	6.4	20	404.2
10	Boston College	5	850	1152	354	2002	5.7	17	400.4
11	Virginia Tech	5	632	1112	349	1744	5.0	15	348.8
12	NC State	5	755	971	350	1726	4.9	14	345.2
13	Virginia	5	376	1264	328	1640	5.0	13	328.0
14	Pitt	5	578	963	300	1541	5.1	13	308

In passing yards, we’re second. In rushing yards, we’re 8th. But they’re mostly empty yards—we aren’t scoring, or even controlling the clock and wearing out the opposing defense.

We’re also the #6 passing DEFENSE in the ACC. Even though the stats have us as an above average passing defense, how many of you would say that’s true?

I can find stats that rank us #8 in a particular offensive category. But great offenses score.

I don’t want to overrate Points per Drive, but we were #41 offensively in that stat before Bowling Green. Defense was #104. Bowling Green’s offense was #124 before they played us and #104 defensively.

When we look at these stats, the outcome is a lot more “mid” offensively than top of the conference.

Again, here’s the QBR for the ACC. Not a perfect stat, but Elite is Tyler Van Dyke, Jordan Travis, and Drake Maye. Syracuse, Duke, and UVA are getting ranked “good”. We’re in with Louisville and VT at “mid”. King is #46 in FBS, which is respectable, but not upper tier of P5.

View attachment 14829

i think we need to ban bowling green stats because it’s making this loss even more depressing lol

 

[roadkill]

When Johnson was the coach here, it was easy to say we were leading the conference in rushing yards. What was important was total offense, though (and we did well there, too)

Here’s the official ACC stats, including games like SCST. We’re 8th out of 14, which is slightly below average.

Rank	Team	G	TD	FG	XPT	2XP	DXP	SAF	PTS	AVG/G
1	Miami	4	22	7	20	1	0	0	175	43.8
2	Florida State	4	23	4	23	0	0	0	173	43.3
3	Syracuse	5	25	6	23	0	0	0	191	38.2
4	Louisville	5	24	6	23	0	0	0	185	37.0
5	North Carolina	4	18	6	17	0	0	0	143	35.8
6	Clemson	5	24	3	23	0	0	0	176	35.2
7	Duke	5	21	5	20	1	0	0	163	32.6
8	Georgia Tech	5	21	6	18	0	0	0	162	32.4
9	Wake Forest	4	13	9	11	0	0	0	116	29.0
10	Boston College	5	18	5	16	0	0	0	139	27.8
11	NC State	5	16	5	16	0	0	0	127	25.4
12	Virginia Tech	5	15	6	14	0	0	1	124	24.8
13	Pitt	5	15	4	15	0	0	0	117	23.4
14	Virginia	5	13	5	12	1	0	0	107

If your offense is biased towards the pass or the run, people on that end of the stats are going to have gaudy stats.

Here’s yardage—we’re in the top three there, but it’s A LOT less important than points:

Rank	Team	G	RUSH	PASS	PLAYS	YDS	AVG/P	TD	AVG/G
1	Miami	4	890	1186	252	2076	8.2	21	519.0
2	Louisville	5	969	1505	331	2474	7.5	24	494.8
3	Georgia Tech	5	837	1500	343	2337	6.8	21	467.4
4	North Carolina	4	669	1187	292	1856	6.4	17	464.0
5	Syracuse	5	953	1359	365	2312	6.3	23	462.4
6	Clemson	5	922	1364	387	2286	5.9	22	457.2
7	Florida State	4	591	1118	250	1709	6.8	21	427.3
8	Wake Forest	4	707	999	305	1706	5.6	12	426.5
9	Duke	5	991	1030	318	2021	6.4	20	404.2
10	Boston College	5	850	1152	354	2002	5.7	17	400.4
11	Virginia Tech	5	632	1112	349	1744	5.0	15	348.8
12	NC State	5	755	971	350	1726	4.9	14	345.2
13	Virginia	5	376	1264	328	1640	5.0	13	328.0
14	Pitt	5	578	963	300	1541	5.1	13	308

In passing yards, we’re second. In rushing yards, we’re 8th. But they’re mostly empty yards—we aren’t scoring, or even controlling the clock and wearing out the opposing defense.

We’re also the #6 passing DEFENSE in the ACC. Even though the stats have us as an above average passing defense, how many of you would say that’s true?

I can find stats that rank us #8 in a particular offensive category. But great offenses score.

I don’t want to overrate Points per Drive, but we were #41 offensively in that stat before Bowling Green. Defense was #104. Bowling Green’s offense was #124 before they played us and #104 defensively.

When we look at these stats, the outcome is a lot more “mid” offensively than top of the conference.

Again, here’s the QBR for the ACC. Not a perfect stat, but Elite is Tyler Van Dyke, Jordan Travis, and Drake Maye. Syracuse, Duke, and UVA are getting ranked “good”. We’re in with Louisville and VT at “mid”. King is #46 in FBS, which is respectable, but not upper tier of P5.

View attachment 14829

Thanks for reinforcing my points about misleading stats. What I am not sure about is our run game. Are teams selling out to stop the run, thus opening up more passing opportunities, or are we just bad at our run game? Or both?

 

[Northeast Stinger]

Thanks for reinforcing my points about misleading stats. What I am not sure about is our run game. Are teams selling out to stop the run, thus opening up more passing opportunities, or are we just bad at our run game? Or both?

Has anyone addressed why we never seem to see crossing patterns over the middle? Wide receiver screens, swing passes and bombs seem to make up 90% of our throws.

 

[57jacket]

• King’s 15 touchdown passes are the most in a Tech season since Justin Thomas threw 18 in 2014.
• King is now tied with Frank Broyles and Shawn Jones for seventh-most TD passes in a single Tech season. Eddie McAshan and Reggie Ball are tied for sixth with 16.

 

[leatherneckjacket]

When Johnson was the coach here, it was easy to say we were leading the conference in rushing yards. What was important was total offense, though (and we did well there, too)

Here’s the official ACC stats, including games like SCST. We’re 8th out of 14, which is slightly below average.

Rank	Team	G	TD	FG	XPT	2XP	DXP	SAF	PTS	AVG/G
1	Miami	4	22	7	20	1	0	0	175	43.8
2	Florida State	4	23	4	23	0	0	0	173	43.3
3	Syracuse	5	25	6	23	0	0	0	191	38.2
4	Louisville	5	24	6	23	0	0	0	185	37.0
5	North Carolina	4	18	6	17	0	0	0	143	35.8
6	Clemson	5	24	3	23	0	0	0	176	35.2
7	Duke	5	21	5	20	1	0	0	163	32.6
8	Georgia Tech	5	21	6	18	0	0	0	162	32.4
9	Wake Forest	4	13	9	11	0	0	0	116	29.0
10	Boston College	5	18	5	16	0	0	0	139	27.8
11	NC State	5	16	5	16	0	0	0	127	25.4
12	Virginia Tech	5	15	6	14	0	0	1	124	24.8
13	Pitt	5	15	4	15	0	0	0	117	23.4
14	Virginia	5	13	5	12	1	0	0	107

If your offense is biased towards the pass or the run, people on that end of the stats are going to have gaudy stats.

Here’s yardage—we’re in the top three there, but it’s A LOT less important than points:

Rank	Team	G	RUSH	PASS	PLAYS	YDS	AVG/P	TD	AVG/G
1	Miami	4	890	1186	252	2076	8.2	21	519.0
2	Louisville	5	969	1505	331	2474	7.5	24	494.8
3	Georgia Tech	5	837	1500	343	2337	6.8	21	467.4
4	North Carolina	4	669	1187	292	1856	6.4	17	464.0
5	Syracuse	5	953	1359	365	2312	6.3	23	462.4
6	Clemson	5	922	1364	387	2286	5.9	22	457.2
7	Florida State	4	591	1118	250	1709	6.8	21	427.3
8	Wake Forest	4	707	999	305	1706	5.6	12	426.5
9	Duke	5	991	1030	318	2021	6.4	20	404.2
10	Boston College	5	850	1152	354	2002	5.7	17	400.4
11	Virginia Tech	5	632	1112	349	1744	5.0	15	348.8
12	NC State	5	755	971	350	1726	4.9	14	345.2
13	Virginia	5	376	1264	328	1640	5.0	13	328.0
14	Pitt	5	578	963	300	1541	5.1	13	308

In passing yards, we’re second. In rushing yards, we’re 8th. But they’re mostly empty yards—we aren’t scoring, or even controlling the clock and wearing out the opposing defense.

We’re also the #6 passing DEFENSE in the ACC. Even though the stats have us as an above average passing defense, how many of you would say that’s true?

I can find stats that rank us #8 in a particular offensive category. But great offenses score.

I don’t want to overrate Points per Drive, but we were #41 offensively in that stat before Bowling Green. Defense was #104. Bowling Green’s offense was #124 before they played us and #104 defensively.

When we look at these stats, the outcome is a lot more “mid” offensively than top of the conference.

Again, here’s the QBR for the ACC. Not a perfect stat, but Elite is Tyler Van Dyke, Jordan Travis, and Drake Maye. Syracuse, Duke, and UVA are getting ranked “good”. We’re in with Louisville and VT at “mid”. King is #46 in FBS, which is respectable, but not upper tier of P5.

View attachment 14829

This is why total yards and total points are not the best metrics, but rather yards per play and points per possession.

 

[CuseJacket]

 

[Techster]

Give this guy a defense! This situation reminds me a bit of what happened with Tevin Washington...GT QB having a good year but the lack of defense will overshadow what the offense is doing.

 

[iceeater1969]

Has anyone addressed why we never seem to see crossing patterns over the middle? Wide receiver screens, swing passes and bombs seem to make up 90% of our throws.

I think we have tried to be conservative- pass towards sideline have fewer bad things that can happen than over the middle.

But , you are right, its time to make those throws.

Last year we had wr ( portaled to unc) who was clutch. This year - per wr coach we aree slinging it around to lots of wr. We need Rutherford to take on that role as we send childress deep.


This year king and wr first showed they can complete deep ball . I hope we can get

 

[iceeater1969]

There are a lot of stats we can pick. His QBR dropped yesterday against a really bad team

The first 5 minutes were awesome. The next few hours were not.

We did the same kind of talk for Sims. We counted only the successes and ignored the problems for a while.

That doesn’t excuse the receivers. But the top QBs in the conference win yesterday, and score. We have red zone issues, and some are on King.

2023 ACC Season Leaders Total QBR | ESPN

Visit ESPN to view ACC Conference Total QBR for the current and previous seasons

www.espn.com

View attachment 14816

I see the ESPN QBR is your choice of qb metrics verses the Qbr efficiency on theacc.com stats where King is near top.
Had he not thrown 2 INT with his 350 yds and 4 tds he would be super high in ratings.




SO FAR MY EYE BALL says he is a warrior that can get way better w talent surronding him.

I hope the ol doesnt revert to swiss cheese so we can see him read miami defense and make throws.

 

[AugustaSwarm]

Has anyone addressed why we never seem to see crossing patterns over the middle? Wide receiver screens, swing passes and bombs seem to make up 90% of our throws.

From a schematic standpoint, the swings and screens tend to fit nicely with the deep balls. Depending on the blocking, the swings and screens force the LB's, corners and safeties to change where they're looking (aka eye discipline). They'll start to overplay the short throw and then you gash them with a deep post or whatever. Kinda the same idea as run game and play action.

 

[slugboy]

I see the ESPN QBR is your choice of qb metrics verses the Qbr efficiency on theacc.com stats where King is near top.
Had he not thrown 2 INT with his 350 yds and 4 tds he would be super high in ratings.




SO FAR MY EYE BALL says he is a warrior that can get way better w talent surronding him.

I hope the ol doesnt revert to swiss cheese so we can see him read miami defense and make throws.

Why do you prefer QB Efficiency to ESPNs QBR?

 

[iceeater1969]

Why do you prefer QB Efficiency to ESPNs QBR?

Oi was asking u , since u posted it and because u use lots of different ones.

Only use stats to calibrate eyes as it relates to whats changed.

MY Eyes ask is the ol any better so thats why passing yards.
Or are they the same not so good ol? The running says they are the same. They are true freshman lt, walk on lg, center who has lots of starts, rg senior transfer and rt back up. Its ethier the qb and the scheme. (.Could be that pyron would look good) . Fact is stats show our passing bette


i just like how the site works at theacc.com stats.

THEIR I Can see IN ONE TABLE ACC qbs only. MY STAT IS TDS VERSES INT WHEN U ADD IN THE RUNNING GAME.
Seems like qbr us very tough on int.