GT O vs CU O

[ATL1]

Read the OP again...not sure why you're ranting about passing when that wasn't even being discussed.

What's the point that our offense performs better or just as well as Clemson's when facing top defenses? Yeah right OK.

 

[Eric]

What's the point that our offense performs better or just as well as Clemson's when facing top defenses? Yeah right OK.

That's the point of the original post as I took it.

 

[ATL1]

It's a silly pointless argument to me. Everything I said prior is based on that.

That's the point of the original post as I took it.

 

[forensicbuzz]

Here's where it's at from my perspective:

As BG said, our Offense is as potent as Clemson's, period. Most any statistic you put forth is going to support that. So, what's the reason they were 11-2 and we're 7-6? Two additional points that have both been brought forth in this thread. Both fall at the feet of CPJ, and it's up to him to make sure they go away (and I believe he's doing that).

...But when you look at it as a whole, the offense has not been the greatest cause for concern. Failure to finish, as has been discussed, has been our biggest issue. We haven't won our share of closely contested games where we were in very good position. Had we done so, most people would feel very differently about the offense today.

and

The Offense is USUALLY good enough to win but the DEf and STs have to do better than normal vs good teams which they usually don't.

 

[yellojello]

It's a silly pointless argument to me. Everything I said prior is based on that.

I beg to disagree. This whole thread came about, because our Offense is constantly attacked by detractors as being inferior. AE87 pulled out stats from common opponents to show that Clemson and GT are comparable. Except for the UGA game, where they had a bunch of injuries, I think the point stands. You could, of course, challenge the small sample size.

All your rebuttals are based on GT's overall record. What is being attempted here is to partition that overall record into O, D and ST. That's a hard thing to do, but people are trying to take a stab at it. Even if you strongly believe the O is a problem, it's nice to suspend disbelief for a while and try to see things from a new vantage point. Your old viewpoint will always be waiting for you.

I really like Boomer's point about statistical outliers cutting both ways. I never thought of it that way and it's something that will inform my opinion going forward.

 

[dressedcheeseside]

WE CAN'T PASS ! That's it. I don't need stats to see it. I don't need "well if you take away the bad teams and add the percentage of good plays divided by the defense in the 4th quarter" to see that we can't pass the ball. When we have to pass WE Done.. Fork in it. Now when our ground game is clicking we eat up stats, yardage, and some wins. That works for some and that fine with them. I'm not a fan of one dimensional offenses. I could probably pull up a whole bunch of stats to show why this offense sucks. On a another message board there is a long list of post & stats that full of these arguments and for what? What's the point?

Clemson Offense Ranked 10th 2013
GT Offense Ranked 44th 2013
Clemson Offense Ranked 9th 2012
GT Offense Ranked 35th 2012
http://www.ncaa.com/stats/football/fbs/current/team/1027/p2

Clemson 11-2 GT 7-6
What other point you need to make?
Head to Head We lost. When I saw the offensive strategy in the first quarter I knew we were done?
In the end CPJ is the head coach this is his offense he ain't disappearing, he ain't going anywhere. We gotta get better. I hope we will. Trying to sale people that Sh*t is Sugar isn't going to work. So again what's the point?

And none of that is relevant to this discussion. You're a trip, dude.

 

[AE 87]

@ATL1 apparently believes that N Ill had a better offense and team than Clemson in 2013. By his metric, they had the #5 offense, while CU was #9. They went 12-2 while CU was 11-2.

I suspect that @ATL1 and @nodawgs are among very few who hold that opinion.

 

[nodawgs]

@ATL1 apparently believes that N Ill had a better offense and team than Clemson in 2013. By his metric, they had the #5 offense, while CU was #9. They went 12-2 while CU was 11-2.

I suspect that @ATL1 and @nodawgs are among very few who hold that opinion.

Move on.

 

[AE 87]

Move on.

Can you ever have a reasonable and adult conversation about your opinions?

Why do you think you have the right to just tell other people what to do?

 

[CuseJacket]

Move on.

Why should he move on? He's sticking to the point of the thread while challenging the statistics you used to rebut his argument.

 

[cyptomcat]

Sorry, I assumed the ability to read a table. My bad, I guess.
GT: VPI 3, CU 13, BYU 15, Miss 20
CU: FSU 1, USCe 16

Quick question, when I look here for the 2013 FEI defense ranks:
http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/feidef2013

in the case of VT, I see these ranks:
DFEI: 4, DE: 5, FD, AY, Va: 3

in the case of Clemson, I see these ranks:
DFEI: 17, DE: 20, FD: 1, AY: 7, Va: 7

in the case of BYU, I see these ranks:
DFEI: 14, DE: 15, FD: 23, AY: 12, Va: 14

in the case of Ole Miss, I see these ranks:
DFEI: 23, DE: 56, FD: 51, AY: 47, Va: 43

what exactly are you looking at? They don't seem to fit your quote. You were arguing about using DFEI rank, right?

 

[dressedcheeseside]

I suspect there's a good bit of glee being had behind a certain keyboard in this thread. It's called trolling, for those newbies aboard.

 

[Squints]

What's the point that our offense performs better or just as well as Clemson's when facing top defenses? Yeah right OK.

It's a discussion about that possibility. I don't think anyone actually claimed that was concretely the case. I have no idea why some people interpreted it that way.

It's a silly pointless argument to me. Everything I said prior is based on that.

Then don't participate in the discussion. It's pretty simple.

 

[AE 87]

Quick question, when I look here for the 2013 FEI defense ranks:
http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/feidef2013

in the case of VT, I see these ranks:
DFEI: 4, DE: 5, FD, AY, Va: 3

in the case of Clemson, I see these ranks:
DFEI: 17, DE: 20, FD: 1, AY: 7, Va: 7

in the case of BYU, I see these ranks:
DFEI: 14, DE: 15, FD: 23, AY: 12, Va: 14

in the case of Ole Miss, I see these ranks:
DFEI: 23, DE: 56, FD: 51, AY: 47, Va: 43

what exactly are you looking at? They don't seem to fit your quote. You were arguing about using DFEI rank, right?

Yeah, I mistated my source in the OP. I clarified a bit later that I meant F/+ D. Which is a column in the fplus table.

 

[cyptomcat]

I wanted to expand the number of samples, because I think it was way too small.

I only looked at common opponents in 2011-2013 (Chad Morris vs. CPJ years). It's only looking at points. Others can expand this further.

But, here is the table:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1LGp0pgwACwQlrR8lOPhNFq4VG58an9rkmnbHnhihWys/pubhtml

Average GT points: 33
Average Clemson points: 44

Clemson has outscored GT 10 times out of 12.

Obviously team pace has an effect on this, so I am sharing it for others to complete the missing stats etc. Though if someone asked me if I would rather have more points or more time of possession, I might go with former, but that's a discussion for another thread.

 

[nodawgs]

Why should he move on? He's sticking to the point of the thread while challenging the statistics you used to rebut his argument.

Moderator? Wow. Again...His stats don't equal reality. No one (outside of this board) believes that we played 4 top 20 defenses, even fewer believe that CPJ's offense is in the same league as Chad Morris/Gus Malzahn. Spinning with stats to support CPJ is an old trick that lost its credibility several years ago. I bet he could even find a stat that says that CPJ is over .500 vs FBS opponents over the last 4 years. Is that true as well? Now...let's move on.

 

[Eric]

Moderator? Wow. Again...His stats don't equal reality. No one (outside of this board) believes that we played 4 top 20 defenses, even fewer believe that CPJ's offense is in the same league as Chad Morris/Gus Malzahn. Spinning with stats to support CPJ is an old trick that lost its credibility several years ago. I bet he could even find a stat that says that CPJ is over .500 vs FBS opponents over the last 4 years. Is that true as well? Now...let's move on.

I was just going to remove this post, but instead I think I should address it.

1. Moderator? Yes. CuseJacket is a moderator and a good one at that. He didn't say anything that was wrong.

2. "his stats don't equal reality"....that is fine if you believe that, no one has to be right or wrong...argue your (and I am not just pointing you out, it goes for all) point without things getting personal. That is the purpose of this forum.

3. If you have to resort to telling another post to "move on" then you are likely one that needs to take advice as you have gone past the point of just discussing something.

4. I feel some posters have personal feelings toward other posters and they take the same issues thread to thread...if you don't like someone or find they get on your nerves then just simply use the ignore feature. I think both you and @AE87 have bright football minds and I actually enjoy reading the debates between you two until it steers off into another direction.

Now let's get this thread back to a civil discussion from here on or I will just simply lock it.

 

[CuseJacket]

Moderator? Wow. Again...His stats don't equal reality. No one (outside of this board) believes that we played 4 top 20 defenses, even fewer believe that CPJ's offense is in the same league as Chad Morris/Gus Malzahn. Spinning with stats to support CPJ is an old trick that lost its credibility several years ago. I bet he could even find a stat that says that CPJ is over .500 vs FBS opponents over the last 4 years. Is that true as well? Now...let's move on.

I was addressing your "move on" comment. Nowhere in my comment to you did I offer an opinion on whose stats are more valid. I have an opinion, and I've intentionally left it out of the thread because I don't think it'll add value to the discussion.

 

[cyptomcat]

FWIW, it's probably not fair to compare CPJ against someone who had tools like Sammy Watkins, Tajh Boyd, Dwayne Allen, Deandre Hopkins, Andre Ellington and Martavis Bryant.

Or at least keep that in mind while comparing.

 

[forensicbuzz]

FWIW, it's probably not fair to compare CPJ against someone who had tools like Sammy Watkins, Tajh Boyd, Dwayne Allen, Deandre Hopkins, Andre Ellington and Martavis Bryant.

Or at least keep that in mind while comparing.

I think that's the whole point of the thread, to compare the two.

As you mentioned above, Clemson has had the playmakers and GT hasn't. With that in mind, how have we held up on Offense? I think well, all things in play. As I noted above, I think Defense, ST and gut-check time on Offense have been the difference.