General Investing and Economics Discussion - No Politics

bobongo

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Stephanie Ruhle came out in her clown suit again in the today show and trying to keep people from selling their investments. That’s terrible advice on any day, and all the way down. Investment advice varies on your timeline and risk aversion.

Well, panic selling usually turns out badly for the individual who does it. I think the market is going to go down further, but for most people, they may well be better off to just ride it out if they're still on board. I understand why one would sell, but I also understand the long-term investor who will just ride out whatever happens and not try to time the market.
 

bobongo

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Just dropped into the 19x range on the DOW.

This is another subject, but the S&P is a more accurate measure, because the Dow is calculated on a simple average of the stocks it surveys, but the S&P gives weight to each stock's market value in their calculation. Also the S&P surveys more stocks, I think. The S&P has been doing slightly better than the Dow for some time now, I've noticed.

But yeah, they're both sucking wind.
 

Deleted member 2897

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This is another subject, but the S&P is a more accurate measure, because the Dow is calculated on a simple average of the stocks it surveys, but the S&P gives weight to each stock's market value in their calculation. Also the S&P surveys more stocks, I think. The S&P has been doing slightly better than the Dow for some time now, I've noticed.

But yeah, they're both sucking wind.

The Russell 2000 is sucking double wind (smaller companies). And the extended market index (Wilshire 5000 and Wilshire 5000 Minus the S&P500) are even more than that.
 

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Interesting. The Fed has decreased interest rates from 1.5% to 0% over the last 10 days. Yet the 10 year bond interest rate (which should track that) has doubled.
https://finance.yahoo.com/quote/^TNX?p=^TNX

Everybody is selling bonds...I'm assuming its a rush to cash, as businesses, governments, and people need cash to spend. As my son would say, Not Gooch. That's a pretty bad result, when the Fed wants interest rates to go to 0 but they double.
 

LibertyTurns

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Interesting. The Fed has decreased interest rates from 1.5% to 0% over the last 10 days. Yet the 10 year bond interest rate (which should track that) has doubled.
https://finance.yahoo.com/quote/^TNX?p=^TNX

Everybody is selling bonds...I'm assuming its a rush to cash, as businesses, governments, and people need cash to spend. As my son would say, Not Gooch. That's a pretty bad result, when the Fed wants interest rates to go to 0 but they double.
The FED funds rate is what banks charge other banks overnight on uncollateralized loans. It’s not the rate you can borrow money nor return you get from interest on a deposit. That went up because there was insufficient demand so a larger premium was necessary to attain sales of 10 yr treasuries at that time.
 

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The FED funds rate is what banks charge other banks overnight on uncollateralized loans. It’s not the rate you can borrow money nor return you get from interest on a deposit. That went up because there was insufficient demand so a larger premium was necessary to attain sales of 10 yr treasuries at that time.

Exactly. They are usually correlated, but the banks don’t have enough money.

Meanwhile, Mnuchin thinks unemployment could hit 20%.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/finance/m...20-25-jobless-rate-without-action/ar-BB11kulX

Nice way to soothe markets.
 

MountainBuzzMan

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An economist predicts a -2% recession in Q1 and a -10% recession Q2. Really hard to predict where we’ll be in another month or two, but this seems reasonable.

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/second-quarter-gdp-could-plunge-10-economist-warns-133619896.html

My company lost/(got postponed) about 25% of its projected Q1 sales. All of our healthcare projects got pushed. But we still ended up with our second best quarter ever, up 80% from Q1-19. We are still trying to get a feel for Q2, but it is not looking good.
 

slugboy

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My grandfather-in-law (since passed on), sold towards the bottom of a downturn because he was retired and was cutting his losses. Two years later, the market was higher than what he sold at.

I don’t know what’s happening after our current situation


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

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My grandfather-in-law (since passed on), sold towards the bottom of a downturn because he was retired and was cutting his losses. Two years later, the market was higher than what he sold at.

I don’t know what’s happening after our current situation


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I think its hard to predict how awful this will be. We're in a worldwide recession. Could be an extremely deep one with like -20%+ declines. However, people seem to forget that everytime these things happen, 1 year from now the comparisons get that much easier. For example, imagine if we drop a catastrophic -20% in GDP in Q2, and by next year at this time, we're still down 15% from where we are and things haven't really come back. Well still, that will show a +5% growth in GDP. As those numbers roll in, more and more people and companies will feel comfortable with turning the spigots back on.

My hope is that we get through this sooner rather than later. We can't even try to get back to normal until we've started having a few days where new cases aren't any bigger than the day before. Once we get to at least an even equilibrium like that, it will be easier to manage. And once it is easier to manage, the narrative will change. And when narratives change, emotions change.

Every single Apple store is back open in China. Kids are starting to go back to school. We can't institute the military force quarantine they did, and we're a couple months behind them, but it does point to the fact that you an get through this.
 

LibertyTurns

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@bwelbo What might confuse people the most is the comparison to 2009. The economy did not really contract much in the aggregate, but the bad policies made it feel horrendous.

This time we’re likely to have way better policies but the actual economic impact may be greater. That being said, the capacity to recover more quickly will be present.
 

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@bwelbo What might confuse people the most is the comparison to 2009. The economy did not really contract much in the aggregate, but the bad policies made it feel horrendous.

This time we’re likely to have way better policies but the actual economic impact may be greater. That being said, the capacity to recover more quickly will be present.

Imagine if Medicare and Social Security weren't so poorly run. Imagine if the NIH, DHS, Department of Agriculture, Energy, and Education weren't so bloated and poorly run. Imagine if we didn't have hundreds of thousands of troops spread around the world. Imagine if our debt was only like $5 trillion right now. We could spend $1 trillion PER MONTH in a war-time like effort to pass the next month or two and help companies and people stay afloat until things were under control. Sad really.

The key to these policies now will be do we have the guts to shut them off in a couple months when things stabilize? The last time around we needlessly extended the pain for a couple years. Remember we had people making a lot of money on the boosted unemployment benefits who were able to not have to worry about work for a couple years. That stuff was just idiotic.
 

bobongo

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@bwelbo What might confuse people the most is the comparison to 2009. The economy did not really contract much in the aggregate, but the bad policies made it feel horrendous.

This time we’re likely to have way better policies but the actual economic impact may be greater. That being said, the capacity to recover more quickly will be present.

What "better policies"? We've given big tax breaks to corporations, who instead of giving raises or saving for a rainy day plowed the money into stock buybacks which are now going down the toilet. Then come the CEOs groveling on their hands and knees for a bailout. The tax breaks fueled a trillion dollar deficit which is now going to be a >two trillion dollar deficit. I believe in capitalism, but this is Disaster Capitalism.

Tax revenues from 2017 to 2018 did increase by a very modest 10 billion dollars, but revenues as a percent of GDP went down 2.5%. The tax cuts increased the deficit.
 

bobongo

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Imagine if Medicare and Social Security weren't so poorly run.

These programs are not being poorly run, except for there being too much fraud in Medicare. The shortfalls are largely due to people living longer and the population aging.
 

Deleted member 2897

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What "better policies"? We've given big tax breaks to corporations, who instead of giving raises or saving for a rainy day plowed the money into stock buybacks which are now going down the toilet. Then come the CEOs groveling on their hands and knees for a bailout. The tax breaks fueled a trillion dollar deficit which is now going to be a >two trillion dollar deficit. I believe in capitalism, but this is Disaster Capitalism.

Tax revenues from 2017 to 2018 did increase by a very modest 10 billion dollars, but revenues as a percent of GDP went down 2.5%. The tax cuts increased the deficit.

It’s not the governments money, it’s the shareholders. They can light it on fire if they want. We had the highest tax rates in the world, and it was costing us a ton of jobs.

Furthermore, our tax revenue is INCREASING at the rate of inflation and is at all time highs. We have bad deficits because we’re increasing spending 4x the rate of inflation.
 
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